A Challenge

[Brakelite]

Tormented in the presence of the Lamb day and night.

Case closed, all else is rebellion to the authority of Scripture.

Yes. I knew someone would bring that up. They are tormented indeed, as Jesus said, some will suffer many stripes for the deeds done in the body, some not so much. But until when? Is the justice of God never satisfied?

 

[Brakelite]

Tormented in the presence of the Lamb day and night.

Case closed, all else is rebellion to the authority of Scripture.

When is eternal life granted to the sinner?
KJV Genesis 3:22-24
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

KJV Revelation 2:7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

 

[jeremiah1five]

ERROR, worship, nor relationships get's one saved. why one answer when they .... suppose to have answered already? so, that nonsense want fly, try again.

26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD. Gen. 4:26.

In other words, men began to worship God. That's what it means and it can ONLY be done by those IN GOD as opposed to those Nimrod-ites that in several years would break off, or should I say, the sons of God broke off from them.

the spirit didn't die, fellowship was broken. try again.

So, what died? Relationship? Sorry. The language doesn't support it. God didn't say OUR relationship would die, but "THOU" shalt die. Thou is not a relationship. Thou is singular.

well nothing, a spiritless person? that's stupidity. now try again,

Duh. Which way did he go, George.

correct, and is not death a separation? so, that want fly, so try again.

Ta dum dum dum.

that's idiotic ...... very idiotic. the scriptures clearly states, Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
WHAT YOU SAID? "He didn't die soul-fully", LOL, LOL, LOL, LOL, Oh my God How Ignorant can one be.

No man or spirit or soul ascended up to God except He that descended.
I think you should try again.

so man died 1/3 soul-fully? Oh wait 1/2 half, since the body is enact. ... lol, lol, ROF..... let's get out the holy jeopardy buzzer for this one .........buzz, for that IGNORANT ANSWER......... and another buzz, for a LACK KNOWLEDGE of the scriptures. and BUZZ. for the affiliation of the two before.
UNDERSTAND, to die or to be cut off is a. a separation, b. disinherit. "To disown, especially to disinherit from one's will". Listen and understand. DEAD MEN, BE YE SONS, OR CHILDRENS ...... CANNOT INHERIT. IN ORDER TO INHER, ONE HAS TO BE ALIVE. .... HELLO, ANYONE HOME?

Is this real...... or is 101G in a dream state?
101G.

His human spirit is not Adam. He soul is.

 

[101G]

26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD. Gen. 4:26.

In other words, men began to worship God. That's what it means and it can ONLY be done by those IN GOD as opposed to those Nimrod-ites that in several years would break off, or should I say, the sons of God broke off from them.

Men or "sons?" ....... (smile), yes, men in a fallen state began, but the "sons" of God, (those born in the Garden), always did..... now another thing.... "WAS it in Spirit and in Truth?" . see, that was the problem ... "MEN" had, who was in the fallen state of Sin a BROKEN FELLOWSHIP with God. (smile). and started killing innocence animals to sacrifice for themselves. My God.

So, what died? Relationship? Sorry. The language doesn't support it. God didn't say OUR relationship would die, but "THOU" shalt die. Thou is not a relationship. Thou is singular.

did 101G say man's Relationship died? no, the language do support as to what DIED, or was cut off. "THOU" shalt die? is a death from ETERNAL LIFE. because DEAD sons cannot inherit the KINGDOM, only a LIVE/LIVING son can. My God how hard is it? dead people cannot inherit nothing, why? because they are dead. My God is simplicity lost for EVER. THINK.... PLEASE.

our BROTHER in Christ, Complete, made it very clear, Romans 8:5 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit." Romans 8:6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." Romans 8:7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:8 "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:10 "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Romans 8:12 "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh." Romans 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." Romans 8:14 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." READ THAT VERSE AGAIN......

101G

 

[jeremiah1five]

There is no ghost like being( spirit) within a mortal.

I never said the human spirit is "ghost-like" God is Spirit. Are you saying God is "ghost-like?"

The spirit that goes to God is his remembrance( dna kind of) that makes that individual who they were.

God created man and woman body, soul, human spirit. It says in Genesis that "in the day" thou eatest of it (the tree) thou shalt surely die. Now put on your thinking caps - Swoosh! - if man is only body and soul and God said "in the day" thou eatest of it thou shalt surely die, then a death would be impossible if man was dichotomy (two parts - body and soul) because Adam needs both to live. But the doctrine on "human spirit" and Adam's possession of it is accurate and what died "in THAT day" he ate of the tree.

Adam did die spiritually that day, But 1000 years is as a day to God, and he did die physically within that time period.

Doesn't matter. We're not talking about God but Adam. He lives in 24-hour days. He died "in the day" he ate from the tree. And after this the communication between them changed. The human spirit - just as the one God creates anew in every born-again believer enables spiritual communication between God and His people for "God is Spirit and those that worship Him must worship Him [with] spirit and in truth."
The human spirit Adam was created with died "in the day" he ate from the tree just as God said. He definitely did not die physically or soul-fully for he needs this to live.

 

[jeremiah1five]

After reading the barrage of confusion above, methinks you guys need to start actually believing your Bible, instead of using the Bible to support your preconceived ideas, because doing that unravels when you need to explain and harmonize scriptures such as...

KJV Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV John 5:29
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV Revelation 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV Revelation 20:7-14
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
KJV John 11:11-14
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
You see, throughout the church age, until just recently, the hope of the Christian was the resurrection. The hope of eternal life was not in going to heaven at death, but in the reuniting of the decayed body in the grave, with the spirit once again creating a living soul. We all know this takes place at no other time than at the second coming. It makes no sense to believe that spirits are in heaven having a mind, a face, fingers and toes, arms and legs, a head to think with, a mouth to praise with, eyes to see with....all these things are still in the grave along with the rest of the body.


And scripture attests to this very thing. Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun......

.....10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.


Job 14:9 Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant. 10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.


Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?


Psalms 88:10 ¶ Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. 11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? 12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?


Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.


Kings, prophets, and priests alike testified that in the grave, there is no life, not until the resurrection.


Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:




Why must the redeemed seek for immortality or eternal life if it came naturally? It is clear from many scriptures that eternal life is a gift granted by grace to the one who accepts Christ as his Savior. Never is it even hinted at anywhere that eternal life is granted to the sinner. The second death is that same death described above...no consiousness...no life....complete oblivion. That death, that oblivion, is the eternal punishment , the eternal death from which there is no resurrection, no hope of the reunion of spirit and body, complete and utter separation from the only source of life, the Living God.

When God saves someone there is no "accept[ing]" in this salvation. God as the stronger man binds the strong man (sin) and once freed there is nowhere else to go. So there the saved person goes. No will. No "accepting."

Ah, an annihilationist. Now THAT'S unbiblical.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Men or "sons?" ....... (smile), yes, men in a fallen state began, but the "sons" of God, (those born in the Garden),

Error. NO ONE was born in the Garden.

always did..... now another thing.... "WAS it in Spirit and in Truth?" . see, that was the problem ... "MEN" had, who was in the fallen state of Sin a BROKEN FELLOWSHIP with God. (smile). and started killing innocence animals to sacrifice for themselves. My God.

Now we're talking about two things.
Adam was created "in fellowship" with God. Sin didn't break any relationship he had with God. But when his human spirit died the communication changed. There was no 'spirit-to-Spirit communication.

There were no innocent animals. Everything God created was created sin-ful or "missing the mark" of the glory of God. Everything was created 'fallen short of His glory.'

did 101G say man's Relationship died?

Yes, I think you did. Hold on. Let me check. That's gonna cost you.
You're right. You said relationship died.

no, the language do support as to what DIED, or was cut off. "THOU" shalt die? is a death from ETERNAL LIFE. because DEAD sons cannot inherit the KINGDOM, only a LIVE/LIVING son can. My God how hard is it? dead people cannot inherit nothing, why? because they are dead. My God is simplicity lost for EVER. THINK.... PLEASE.

The answer lies elsewhere. And the elsewhere in Scripture reveals man was created in the image of God. That image is three-part. It can't be 'character-wise' because the image of God 'character-wise' is not Adam but the Son.

our BROTHER in Christ, Complete, made it very clear, Romans 8:5 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit." Romans 8:6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." Romans 8:7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:8 "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:10 "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Romans 8:12 "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh." Romans 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." Romans 8:14 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." READ THAT VERSE AGAIN......

101G

The Spirit of God did not lead Adam and the woman. She was led by her lust; he was led by the woman. With eyes wide open. And he may have been hungry and too lazy to go over to one of the other trees to get a snack.

 

[Keiw1]

I never said the human spirit is "ghost-like" God is Spirit. Are you saying God is "ghost-like?"

God created man and woman body, soul, human spirit. It says in Genesis that "in the day" thou eatest of it (the tree) thou shalt surely die. Now put on your thinking caps - Swoosh! - if man is only body and soul and God said "in the day" thou eatest of it thou shalt surely die, then a death would be impossible if man was dichotomy (two parts - body and soul) because Adam needs both to live. But the doctrine on "human spirit" and Adam's possession of it is accurate and what died "in THAT day" he ate of the tree.

Doesn't matter. We're not talking about God but Adam. He lives in 24-hour days. He died "in the day" he ate from the tree. And after this the communication between them changed. The human spirit - just as the one God creates anew in every born-again believer enables spiritual communication between God and His people for "God is Spirit and those that worship Him must worship Him [with] spirit and in truth."
The human spirit Adam was created with died "in the day" he ate from the tree just as God said. He definitely did not die physically or soul-fully for he needs this to live.

Spirit beings are ghost like. Some bibles call the holy spirit the holy ghost.
Then why are Christian religions such a mass of confusion if holy spirit is guiding them? It proves 99% of those religions are false. 1 Has Jesus and gets holy spirit.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Spirit beings are ghost like. Some bibles call the holy spirit the holy ghost.
Then why are Christian religions such a mass of confusion if holy spirit is guiding them? It proves 99% of those religions are false. 1 Has Jesus and gets holy spirit.

The reason why Holy "Spirit" and Holy "ghost" is in the bible, KJV for example, is that the translators came from Cambridge and Westminster Universities, and each had a preference.

Christianity is not a religion. Gentile Christians are "confused" because of many reasons, but one stands out, that being, unconfessed "sin" in their lives. This is the result of carnality, failure to attend fellowships, worship, pray, read and study their bibles, and other behaviors which if practiced religiously towards God the believer would have clearer sight-living and leadership from God as Christ is honored through righteous faith and living. Be ye holy for I am holy is the instruction.

 

[Keiw1]

The reason why Holy "Spirit" and Holy "ghost" is in the bible, KJV for example, is that the translators came from Cambridge and Westminster Universities, and each had a preference.

Christianity is not a religion. Gentile Christians are "confused" because of many reasons, but one stands out, that being, unconfessed "sin" in their lives. This is the result of carnality, failure to attend fellowships, worship, pray, read and study their bibles, and other behaviors which if practiced religiously towards God the believer would have clearer sight-living and leadership from God as Christ is honored through righteous faith and living. Be ye holy for I am holy is the instruction.

Its easy to see the one religion who has Jesus-They are hated like Jesus was because they are no part of this world. They teach the flock this without fail=Man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY utterance from God)= OT,NT it NEVER stops.

 

[Brakelite]

He didn't die soul-fully for the soul is comprised of intellect and mind, emotions, senses, conscience, and will, and after he ate, he still had communication with God....

.... Through a Mediator...

Ah, an annihilationist. Now THAT'S unbiblical.

What's umbilical is to not believe what it says, and ignore it pretending that the words destruction, perish, death, etc etc mean something other than plain language dictates.

 

[jeremiah1five]

.... Through a Mediator...

What mediator? It was only God and the Adam's. If you're referring to the Holy Spirit, He wasn't needed as the human spirit Adam had died "in the day" he ate from the tree. The communication took on a more "physical/material" form as God (possibly a Christological form) was walking in the Garden and called out to Adam.

What's umbilical is to not believe what it says, and ignore it pretending that the words destruction, perish, death, etc etc mean something other than plain language dictates.

I know what the words "destruction" "perish" "death" "perdition" mean in the Scripture. Then there is the context and comparison to how the word is used elsewhere in Scripture. Let's take the Greek word "perdition" regarding Judas.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Jn 17:12.

Strong's: apōleia “Ἀπώλεια,” [#684] (it means) ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal.)

The "physical, spiritual, and eternal" are the senses in which the word is used.

So how was Judas Iscariot a "son of "ruin" or "loss"? Was it eternal "ruin" or "loss"? No, because Jesus made atonement for His elect and Judas is elect of God (Lk. 6:12-13) and was at the Passover meal table:

19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
Lk 22:19–21.

Was it spiritual "ruin" or "loss"? No, for the Holy Spirit had not yet come and couldn't come, according to Jesus, until Jesus left and then He could send the Comforter/Spirit.

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Jn 16:7.

So, what's left? Oh, yes, physical "ruin or "loss." Was it a physical "ruin" or "loss"?
Yes, it was. Judas went out and hanged himself in accordance with the Law of Moses of life for life. Judas was complicit in the death of an innocent man (Jesus) and for that he was to be taken outside the city and stoned to death by the people. But that's not what happened, was it? He wasn't stoned. He hanged himself. But he did give his life in obedience to the Law of Moses of life for life. Let's take a look at what led him to this conclusion. Let's see if I am "unbiblical" as you say, but let's also see if you accept the Word of God as written or will hold to Gentile propaganda prejudice and reject the Scripture.

3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. Mt 27:3–5.

The Scripture above states Judas "saw" his error/sin and he repented. He went back to the priests in attempt to "buy back" the life of Jesus but they rejected him and his remorse and told him, "See thou to that!" which in our language of today is "YOU handle it!"

He did. He went out and hanged himself. But before he left he showed fruits worthy of repentance in rejecting the mammon and threw it back at the chief priests and elders.
Based upon my exegesis of the Scriptures above and the fact that Judas' name is on the foundation of the wall of the Great City, Jerusalem, coming down from heaven the only conclusion is that Judas Iscariot, a man whom Jesus called "Friend" (The only other person in the bible called "Friend" was Abraham and God said it), confessed his sin, repented, tried to correct his sin, and rejected the mammon and obeyed the Law of Moses like a Jew he was and hanged himself.

I think I have rightly divided the Word of Truth.

 

[Brakelite]

What mediator?

KJV Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

KJV 1 Corinthians 10:4
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

KJV 1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[360watt]

When is eternal life granted to the sinner?
KJV Genesis 3:22-24
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

KJV Revelation 2:7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Eternal life is given when a sinner places their faith in Jesus alone to forgive them and give them eternal life. The whole book of John shows this.

Revelation 2:7 isn't about salvation but church members overcoming sin issues in their church. That's the context. Types of churches with particular types of problems to overcome.

 

[Keiw1]

Eternal life is given when a sinner places their faith in Jesus alone to forgive them and give them eternal life. The whole book of John shows this.

Revelation 2:7 isn't about salvation but church members overcoming sin issues in their church. That's the context. Types of churches with particular types of problems to overcome.

Matt 10:22 disagrees with your assessment of when ne actually gets saved.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

my question is.....
When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary, was this act a full and final settlement of the debt we owe due to our sin?

Potentially yes. HOWEVER if you don't place the FAITH That God gives you in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus, then it's ineffective.

In other words, has the full redemption price been paid,

AS observed above.

and what was that price?

BLOOD from a perfect Human sacrifice.

 

[Keiw1]

Potentially yes. HOWEVER if you don't place the FAITH That God gives you in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus, then it's ineffective.

AS observed above.

BLOOD from a perfect Human sacrifice.

Acts 3:19--Repent and turn around to get sin blotted out.

 

[jeremiah1five]

KJV Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

KJV 1 Corinthians 10:4
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

KJV 1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

OK. And?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Acts 3:19--Repent and turn around to get sin blotted out.

Chuckle!!! More to it than that.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Acts 3:19--Repent and turn around to get sin blotted out.

Perfect timing.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/repent-and-be-converted-to-christianity.1342/