World = US = John 3:16

[TomL]

Does he say He prays for the world in this chapter as definitively as He says He does not pray for the world in your twisted version?
Show me where He says that " pray for the world" in the same positive language as when He says negatively, " pray not for the world"?

Show me.

Read what was written

John 17:21–23 (LEB) — 21 that they all may be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, that they also may be in us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 And the glory that you have given to me, I have given to them, in order that they may be one, just as we are one—23 I in them, and you in me, in order that they may be completed in one, so that the world may know that you sent me, and you have loved them just as you have loved me.


There is prayer that the world may believe the Father sent him and that the world may know the father loves them.

 

[brightfame52]

Read what was written

John 17:21–23 (LEB) — 21 that they all may be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, that they also may be in us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 And the glory that you have given to me, I have given to them, in order that they may be one, just as we are one—23 I in them, and you in me, in order that they may be completed in one, so that the world may know that you sent me, and you have loved them just as you have loved me.


There is prayer that the world may believe the Father sent him and that the world may know the father loves them.

Thats the Gentiles and others who shall believe through the Apostles Testimony Vs 20

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

This also shows your folly in not believing people belonged to Christ before they believe,Hes praying for people that have not even been born yet.

But He didnt changeHis Mind and start praying for the reprobate world that is condemned Jn17:9 1 Cor 11:32

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

So the condemned world of 1 Cor 11:32 is the world Christ will not pray for,nor died for
its like the condemned world during the days of noah Heb 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

 

[Clay]

Good thing the ark didn't have a crack in it.

 

[TomL]

Thats the Gentiles and others who shall believe through the Apostles Testimony Vs 20

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

This also shows your folly in not believing people belonged to Christ before they believe,Hes praying for people that have not even been born yet.

But He didnt changeHis Mind and start praying for the reprobate world that is condemned Jn17:9 1 Cor 11:32

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

So the condemned world of 1 Cor 11:32 is the world Christ will not pray for,nor died for
its like the condemned world during the days of noah Heb 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Um verse 20 says absolutely nothing about already belonging to Christ. You are reading that into the passage.

and running from the context you just ignore

John 17:21–23 (UASV) — 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that you sent me, and loved them, even as you have loved me.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Doesnt matter if you deny it, your confidence is in the flesh, ethnicity

God scattered His covenant people four times in history:
Assyrian Conquest of the ten northern kingdom tribe 722 BC
Babylonian Conquest of the two southern kingdom tribes 586 BC.
Romann destruction of Israel proper after years of occupation and the rebellions of the AD 60s in AD 70.
Germany pushing Jews out of Europe and murdering over six million in AD 1930s and 1940s.

In all instances God scattered His people into Gentile lands throughout the world with many tribes coming to American is the centuries after the founding of the New World. So, through all these scatterings Jews were raped by Gentiles that conquered them, they were made concubines, many married and remained in Gentile lands for dozens of generations, many were made slaves. I did a poll and mostly all Christians that responded could only trace their ancestors back past the American Revolutionary War (1770s) and one claimed back to 1500s.
There is a great possibility that true born-again people would have to have a Hebrew or Hebrews in their ancestry. After all, God never made covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles.
God did make covenant with Abram the Hebrew and with his Hebrew seed.
Thus, due to these facts any true born of the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL would by necessity must have a Hebrew in their ancestry.
Tell me, have you ever asked God to show you which natural Israel tribe you are? Have you ever asked Him to maybe show you what spiritual tribes you are? That would help you know which natural Olive tree Israeli tribe you may have in your family ancestry.

NO ONE has yet answered my question to show me in the Hebrew Scripture God making covenant with any non-Hebrew Gentile nor can they tell me his name.
And you know this is true.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Read what was written

John 17:21–23 (LEB) — 21 that they all may be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, that they also may be in us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 And the glory that you have given to me, I have given to them, in order that they may be one, just as we are one—23 I in them, and you in me, in order that they may be completed in one, so that the world may know that you sent me, and you have loved them just as you have loved me.


There is prayer that the world may believe the Father sent him and that the world may know the father loves them.

If the "world" are non-Hebrew Gentiles they can "believe" in God and that He has a Son named Jesus. Millions of Catholics believe in this, millions of unsaved people believe this. Millions of unsaved in false churches throughout the world believe this but they are not saved merely by having mental assent to these things.
There is a book of life of the Lamb slain God wrote BEFORE He created man that contains the names of all those He's predestined to save and redeem from sin and death to eternal life.

NO ONE who has a saving relationship ever chose God. Jews raised their kids in their covenant and by virtue of God's Promises to this one ethnic people they will all come to salvation. That's what He promised Abraham and Moses. That's what is promised by Jeremiah, another of the major Hebrew prophets. But everyone who did have a relationship with God Scripture says the Father draws them all. No one - unless they are in the Hebrew Covenants - ever looked for God unless God first drew them to Him. That's what Scripture teaches.
So, if the "world" are non-Hebrew Gentiles in your interpretation of the above verse you quote (John 17:21-23) it doesn't matter. These would have to be a people Jesus as High Priest specifically prays for them as He did for those whom the Father gave the Son in John 17:9. In that verse Jesus says He specifically prays for "THEM" (those the Father gave the Son, such as the twelve and later those that will believe in Him through their testimony.
Anyone can believe in Jesus, but their names are not in the book of LIFE of the Lamb slain. and they are not predestined to salvation.

God saves through covenant. This is proved through Scripture. And God has covenant with Abram the Hebrew and his Hebrew seed; a people later called the children of Jacob (Israel.)
But you claim God saves non-Hebrew Gentiles?
Show me the covenant in Scripture of the Old Testament where God makes covenant with any non-Hebrew Gentile and tell me his name (from Scripture.)
Go ahead. PROVE it.

 

[brightfame52]

@TomL

Um verse 20 says absolutely nothing about already belonging to Christ.

They do, thats why He prays for them, they are part of the ones the Father gave Him to give eternal life to Jn 17:2

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

The disciples nor His people at that present time were not the only ones He should die for and give eternal life to, there were people He was given that had not yet been born.

 

[brightfame52]

God scattered His covenant people four times in history:
Assyrian Conquest of the ten northern kingdom tribe 722 BC
Babylonian Conquest of the two southern kingdom tribes 586 BC.
Romann destruction of Israel proper after years of occupation and the rebellions of the AD 60s in AD 70.
Germany pushing Jews out of Europe and murdering over six million in AD 1930s and 1940s.

In all instances God scattered His people into Gentile lands throughout the world with many tribes coming to American is the centuries after the founding of the New World. So, through all these scatterings Jews were raped by Gentiles that conquered them, they were made concubines, many married and remained in Gentile lands for dozens of generations, many were made slaves. I did a poll and mostly all Christians that responded could only trace their ancestors back past the American Revolutionary War (1770s) and one claimed back to 1500s.
There is a great possibility that true born-again people would have to have a Hebrew or Hebrews in their ancestry. After all, God never made covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles.
God did make covenant with Abram the Hebrew and with his Hebrew seed.
Thus, due to these facts any true born of the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL would by necessity must have a Hebrew in their ancestry.
Tell me, have you ever asked God to show you which natural Israel tribe you are? Have you ever asked Him to maybe show you what spiritual tribes you are? That would help you know which natural Olive tree Israeli tribe you may have in your family ancestry.

NO ONE has yet answered my question to show me in the Hebrew Scripture God making covenant with any non-Hebrew Gentile nor can they tell me his name.
And you know this is true.

Your confidence is in the flesh, ethnicity, its still showing

 

[brightfame52]

God scattered His covenant people four times in history:
Assyrian Conquest of the ten northern kingdom tribe 722 BC
Babylonian Conquest of the two southern kingdom tribes 586 BC.
Romann destruction of Israel proper after years of occupation and the rebellions of the AD 60s in AD 70.
Germany pushing Jews out of Europe and murdering over six million in AD 1930s and 1940s.

In all instances God scattered His people into Gentile lands throughout the world with many tribes coming to American is the centuries after the founding of the New World. So, through all these scatterings Jews were raped by Gentiles that conquered them, they were made concubines, many married and remained in Gentile lands for dozens of generations, many were made slaves. I did a poll and mostly all Christians that responded could only trace their ancestors back past the American Revolutionary War (1770s) and one claimed back to 1500s.
There is a great possibility that true born-again people would have to have a Hebrew or Hebrews in their ancestry. After all, God never made covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles.
God did make covenant with Abram the Hebrew and with his Hebrew seed.
Thus, due to these facts any true born of the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL would by necessity must have a Hebrew in their ancestry.
Tell me, have you ever asked God to show you which natural Israel tribe you are? Have you ever asked Him to maybe show you what spiritual tribes you are? That would help you know which natural Olive tree Israeli tribe you may have in your family ancestry.

NO ONE has yet answered my question to show me in the Hebrew Scripture God making covenant with any non-Hebrew Gentile nor can they tell me his name.
And you know this is true.

Jer 17:5

Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

 

[jeremiah1five]

@TomL



They do, thats why He prays for them, they are part of the ones the Father gave Him to give eternal life to Jn 17:2

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

The disciples nor His people at that present time were not the only ones He should die for and give eternal life to, there were people He was given that had not yet been born.

And yet none of them are non-Hebrew.
Jesus Christ died under the Law in accordance with the Law requirements, and as High Priest, He sacrificed Himself for the children of Israel and the Hebrew people traced back to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and his twelve sons and their families. There is no evidence the high priest under the Law offered sacrifices for non-Hebrews but that as the Law dictates all sacrifices were made to and for the children of Israel ONLY.
And in keeping with the Law Jesus, as High Priest, came to fulfill the same sacrifices which were made by Jesus Christ of Himself as Lamb of God to and for the children of Israel ONLY.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Your confidence is in the flesh, ethnicity, its still showing

I see you can't prove your argument nor your false Constantinian beliefs about a salvation which is OF THE JEWS.
Show me a covenant between God and non-Hebrew Gentiles and tell me the name of this Gentile God made covenant with for their redemption and salvation. What was his name, this Gentile you claim has covenant with God.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Jer 17:5

Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

Doesn't apply to me. My heart/life has not departed from the Lord. It can't. I am firmly in the palm of the Father's hand, and in the palm of the Son's hand.

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
John 10:27–29.

It also says in Hebrews He will NEVER leave nor forsake me. I'm covered. I have eternal life in Christ.
How many sermons have you heard where the pastor or speaker shares a testimony of how he/she might at one time let go of Jesus' hand and then counter he thanks God for God never letting go of his hand.
You're Scripture is misapplied. You have a habit of doing that.

 

[TomL]

@TomL



They do, thats why He prays for them, they are part of the ones the Father gave Him to give eternal life to Jn 17:2

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

The disciples nor His people at that present time were not the only ones He should die for and give eternal life to, there were people He was given that had not yet been born.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

The above shows a not yet.

 

[TomL]

If the "world" are non-Hebrew Gentiles they can "believe" in God and that He has a Son named Jesus. Millions of Catholics believe in this, millions of unsaved people believe this. Millions of unsaved in false churches throughout the world believe this but they are not saved merely by having mental assent to these things.

So you agree Jesus prayed for these?

There is a book of life of the Lamb slain God wrote BEFORE He created man that contains the names of all those He's predestined to save and redeem from sin and death to eternal life.

Prove it with scripture

 

[jeremiah1five]

So you agree Jesus prayed for these?

I agree that the three parts of the Hebrew Scripture (Law/Pentateuch, Psalms, and Prophets - 39 "books") are the Hebrew Scripture so everything revealed are to and for the Hebrew people and that is the context as to WHO it was written TO and written FOR.
So, words like "all" or "world" or "everyone," unless the context of the verse is identifying anyone NOT Hebrew or of the twelve tribes then it is referring to non-Hebrews (Gentiles.)

When Jesus says, "for God so loved the world" - a conversation between two Jews - He means the "world of Jews" and not the world of non-Jews.

Prove it with scripture

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13: 8.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from [BEFORE] the foundation (creation) of the world.
Revelation 13: 8.

In other words, BEFORE God created the foundation of the world a book of life of the lamb was written which contains the names of those souls predestined to salvation.
Salvation was not decided AFTER God created man but BEFORE.

God had a plan He contemplated in His Mind in Himself in cooperation with the Son/Word and the Spirit before creation. All He is doing is following that plan which gets played out in TIME - which is another creation of God. God is eternal. TIME exists within the will of God which is eternal. Man may think he has free will but free will in man is an illusion. If man has free will, then God's will is dependent upon man and the choices he makes which results in that with every million to billions of choices man makes in a moment causes God to always be updating His plan based upon the choices of man, which is preposterous. God's will is not subservient to man's will. God's will like everything about God is Sovereign.

I have always held that there is only ONE GOD, there is NONE LIKE HIM, and He gives His glory (eternalness, Holiness, Righteous, Omniscient, Omnipresent, All-Wise, All-Knowing, etc.) to NO ONE.
Thus, by understanding these things about God then creation falls short of His glory - including man. The ONLY WAY God can create man is that he will be sinful and falls short of God's glory. Man was not possessing any of God's Attributes because God gives His glory to NO ONE. Man was NOT holy, or righteous, or pure, or sinless when God created him from the dust from the ground. Man sinned because he was created a sinner and the word "sin" only means "missing the mark" (of the glory of God.)
What is that "mark" missed? The glory of God, or God's personal standards of Himself against anything and everything in creation. Man sinned (in the Garden) because he was a sinner; he is not a sinner because he sinned.

 

[brightfame52]

@jeremiah1five

And yet none of them are non-Hebrew.

More Trust n the flesh

 

[brightfame52]

I see you can't prove your argument nor your false Constantinian beliefs about a salvation which is OF THE JEWS.
Show me a covenant between God and non-Hebrew Gentiles and tell me the name of this Gentile God made covenant with for their redemption and salvation. What was his name, this Gentile you claim has covenant with God.

Still more confidence in the flesh

 

[brightfame52]

Doesn't apply to me. My heart/life has not departed from the Lord. It can't. I am firmly in the palm of the Father's hand, and in the palm of the Son's hand.

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
John 10:27–29.

It also says in Hebrews He will NEVER leave nor forsake me. I'm covered. I have eternal life in Christ.
How many sermons have you heard where the pastor or speaker shares a testimony of how he/she might at one time let go of Jesus' hand and then counter he thanks God for God never letting go of his hand.
You're Scripture is misapplied. You have a habit of doing that.

More confidence in the flesh Phil 3 3

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

 

[TomL]

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13: 8.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from [BEFORE] the foundation (creation) of the world.
Revelation 13: 8.

Um there is no before in the text. From is not before

Revelation 13:8 (NASB95) — 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

 

[jeremiah1five]

@jeremiah1five



More Trust n the flesh

Well, the covenants are with a particular people of a certain ethnicity: Hebrews.