"Works Salvation"

@Jim

Yes he is. Jim, my dear friend, every act a man does is sin, "if not done by faith"! Surely you believe this.
No I do not believe what you present. I am so very, very glad and gratified that God is not who and what you present Him to be.
Before plowing, a righteous man thanks God for his and his ox’s health, sunshine, last night’s rain, the acres he owns, the opportunity to work, God’s mercy to sinners, and the hope of eternal life. While plowing, he meditates on the ox’s strength, the smell of the soil, the miracle of plant growth, the Lord’s goodness, and begs Divine mercy for more rain and greater grace. He wipes sweat away and thanks Heaven for the body’s cooling system. At the day’s end, he gives seed to a neighbor, takes a chicken to the preacher, thanks the Lord for a blessed day, reads his Bible, confesses his sins, and loves his wife.

Before plowing, a wicked man complains about the fact he has only one ox, the lack of sunshine last month, the mud from last night’s rain, the farm next door he wishes he owned, the death of his father last winter, the burden of taxes, and how life is hard. While plowing, he dreams of making more money than his brother, beating his neighbor for local councilman, and of how strong and successful he has become. Twice he swears at the sun for making the day so hot. At the day’s end, he sends the borrowing neighbor away empty, kills two chickens to glut himself, complains about how hard he worked, reads the Police Gazette, and goes to sleep thinking of his neighbor’s wife. (much of this I owe to a friend who preached from this verse a few years ago)
One would think that you have the ability to distinguish between the lost and the saved by simply observing him. That is simply not true. What you have described above is the two extreme ends of a spectrum.

I have known men who would be described by what you call a righteous man except they would not thank God or read the Bible, but they would be nothing at all like what you would call a wicked man.
 
No, that is just not true.

When James in chapter 2 said "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all", He was not saying that if one disobeyed just one law of God he had disobeyed every law. Pleasing God is much the same. Here again, if one has committed just a single act displeasing to God, then he has not pleased God. That does not mean that God is displeased with every act, everything, that he does.
Rom 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
 
@Seabass

You said: "God's grace to Noah came attached with a condition"

That false!
Gen 6:14
"Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch."

The verb "make" is an imperative, a command.
--the fact it was commanded, if for no other reason, made it necessary for disobedience to God is sin and sin is the very reason men are lost-do not have grace in God's eyes.
-- building the ark was Noah's "plan of salvation" to escape the destruction of the flood. Not building the ark would be Noah rejecting that plan given to him by God's grace, Noah would be rejecting God's grace by not building the ark.
-- it would be impossible for Noah to have been graciously saved from the flood apart from building the ark.

“But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord” (Genesis 6:8).

That is what set Noah apart from the rest – "Sovereign Grace"!

Two issues at hand:
1) why did Noah find grace in the eyes of God to begin with in Gen 6:8
2) would Noah have continued to find grace in the eyes of God had he disobeyed and not built the ark

============================================

First issue first

Why did Noah find grace in the eyes of God to begin with in Gen 6:8?


Was Noah finding grace in the eyes of the Lord random, capricious? Was it unconditional that is, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord regardless of the kind of life he lived whether he lived a good life or wicked life? Noah finding grace in God's eyes is a mystery that can never be known? NO to all of these questions for the text tells us why....

From Gen 6:5-8 a contrast is made between the wicked world and Noah. The world was continually wicked "BUT" Noah found grace in the eyes of God. For Noah was righteous, blameless and he walked with God and this is why Noah found grace in the eyes of God. Furthermore when God speaks to Noah in Gen 7:1, God says to Noah "Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation." So the context does not show Noah just as a random person picked out of a hat or that by a flip of a coin that God bestowed grace upon Noah for some random, capricious, unconditional or unknown reason.

Grammar: The verbs Noah "found", 'Noah "walked' & God "seen" are all perfect tense verbs:

Perfect (qatal): Views the action as completed, whole, or definite — something the speaker regards as a finished fact or a settled reality.

Gen 7:1
"I have seen" means God is declaring that He has observed and confirmed Noah’s righteousness as a completed reality up to this point. The “seeing” is not a new discovery at the exact moment God speaks; it is a settled evaluation of Noah’s life and character.

"God had already described Noah this way earlier (Genesis 6:9 — “Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God”). The perfect in 7:1 reinforces and confirms that assessment: “I have seen [and therefore know] that you are righteous.” It is not limited to some distant past event. The perfect here carries the sense of “I have observed you to be righteous” — a factual statement about Noah’s proven character throughout the time leading up to the flood, in contrast to the rest of that corrupt generation." Noah’s righteousness (by faith and obedient walk with God) has been demonstrated, and on that basis God spares him and his household." AI

"Noah walked with God"

"In Genesis 6:9, the perfect form presents Noah’s “walking with God” as a completed reality — something God (and the narrator) can look back on as a definite, established characteristic of Noah’s life up to that point. It is not describing a one-time event, but the overall course of his life as a finished, observable whole."

"The Hithpael stem adds a reflexive or intensive nuance: it emphasizes repeated, habitual, or deliberate action. It carries the idea of ongoing, continuous behavior — Noah actively and consistently conducted himself in this way. Many Hebrew grammarians and commentators note that this form highlights durative/continuous action (a lifestyle sustained over time)." AI

  • Walking with God” is a Hebrew idiom for intimate fellowship, habitual obedience, and a life aligned with God’s will.
  • It pictures a close, ongoing relationship in which a person lives in step with God — listening to Him, trusting Him, and doing what pleases Him.
  • It is repeatedly linked in Scripture to obedience and keeping God’s commands. For example:
    • Later in the same flood story, Noah’s obedience is emphasized: “Noah did everything just as God commanded him” (Genesis 6:22; 7:5).
    • The same idiom is used of Enoch (Genesis 5:22, 24), and the New Testament connects it to faith and righteous living (Hebrews 11:5–7). AI

"The perfect aspect here looks at Noah’s life as a completed whole up to the time of the flood narrative. God is declaring a settled evaluation: throughout his generations (in contrast to the corrupt world around him), Noah had lived a life of ongoing, faithful compliance with God’s will."

Was Noah’s Past Walking with God the Reason He Found Grace?

Yes — the text presents it that way, while still preserving the priority of grace.
  • God’s grace/favor (Hebrew chen) comes first in the story (v. 8), emphasizing that Noah did not “earn” salvation in a merit-based sense. He was still a sinner in a fallen world. Grace is God’s unmerited kindness extended to him.
  • Immediately afterward (v. 9), the narrator explains why Noah stood out and received that favor: his life had been characterized by righteousness, blamelessness, and walking with God. Later, God Himself confirms this: “I have seen that you are righteous before me in this generation” (Genesis 7:1, perfect tense — a settled observation of Noah’s proven character). AI
=============================================

Second point: The issue now is would Noah have continued to find grace in the eyes of the Lord had he quit walking with God by rebelling and disobeying God's command to build the ark?

NO!!!

Noah did not live a perfect sinless life thus he did not merit God's grace. Hence the grace extended to Noah was unmerited BUT that grace required a response from Noah: "make yourself an ark". Had Noah disobeyed God, then he would then be like the rest of the corrupt world and come under that same judgement the world received.

Yet “Noah did all that the Lord commanded him” (Genesis 6:22). It should not be surprising Noah did all that was commanded him for we know from the perfect tenses "walked" and "seen" Noah had been living an obedient life to God up to Gen 6.
"The perfect tenses we discussed earlier describe Noah’s life up to that point as one of consistent faithfulness." AI

Heb 11:7
“By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events not yet seen, in reverent fear built an ark for the saving of his household."
The purpose of his build the ark was for the "saving of his house".
No obedience in building the ark = no saving of his house.

God's grace simply provided Noah an opportunity to escape the flood (God did not force salvation from the flood upon Noah). Therefore it was up to Noah to receive God's grace by building the ark or reject it by disobeying God by not building the ark.

His obedience was not a work of merit but a response to the grace God extended to him. If one wants to call his obedience a work of merit then that means God owed him salvation from the flood and one rips grace right out of the context.

---------------------------------------------------

If you want to claim that the perfect tense of 'found', 'walked' and 'seen', that is, Noah's past obedience to God is NOT why Noah found grace in the eyes of God in v6, then can you give us the reason why he found grace in the eyes of God in v6?
 
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I did not say that, I said he had faith which is an "evidence of" being born of God. Do not attempt to put a spin on what I say~we are not politicians, but suppose to be "Christians"
Faith is NOT an evidence of being born of God. Eph 2:8-9 says that God's grace comes to us THROUGH faith, meaning that faith MUST be present BEFORE God's grace is put upon us. Faith is the conduit through which God's grace comes to us.
If he did, then simple put, it would only proved he did not have faith. What's so difficult about this? I know, you must somehow invent ways that man does have a part in his salvation from sin and condemnation, but the word of God is on our side who believe in pure grace and not works done by men who are at enmity against God. You sir will lose this battle every single time, not because of any power from us, but because truth is with us, and truth shall prevail every single time.
Yes, if Naaman had stopped at six dips, or had not gone to Jordan at all, or any other failure to perform the conditions placed upon him by God for the healing of his body, that would have been evidence of his lack of faith. This is precisely the point. I am not inventing ways for man to participate in his own salvation, far from it. I am acknowledging the conditions God placed upon receipt of His gift of salvation.
All of God's children shouted AMEN and AMEN.
I am a child of God, and I shout "That is a LIE!"
Doug, I would never disagree that there are conditions which we must do, to receive God's best for us in this world as his children, but there are no conditions that we "must and can do" in order to receive eternal life as sinner dead in sins, and at enmity against God, for Doug that's impossible. This is where we stand, since this is the truth of the word of God. I will add, we are consistent in teaching these two truths.
This, my friend, is where you are wrong.
Read Rom 10:9-10. It says clearly and explicitly that the physical action of confessing Jesus as Lord results in our receiving salvation.
Read Acts 2:38. It says clearly and explicitly that the physical action of repenting of sin and being baptized results in receiving forgiveness of sin and receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Read Gal 3:26-27. It says that those who have been baptized have been clothed with Christ and adopted into God's family.
Read Acts 3:19. It says that man must repent of sin and turn to God in order to receive forgiveness of that sin.
Yes, there are things that man can and must do in order to receive God's blessing of salvation. Yes, we are still enemies of His and dead to Him until we have been cleansed through the washing of water through the Word of God (Eph 5:26-27).
You are not quite quoting me carefully enough, nor using all I said to prove my point. I do not think you are doing this on purpose, so I will be patience and once again show you exactly what I am saying, for I know that this is the truth of God's word and his word will defend truth. Paul said:

2nd Corinthians 13:8​

“For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.”

The apostles had no power, nor could they, nor did they desire to exercise any against such who received the truth of the Gospel in the love of it; who continued in it, walked in it, and held it fast; who worshipped God in Spirit and in truth. God's truth can never be gainsay against, if a man has that truth. We can only at best speak the truth as we speak the word of God and defend it and not some church one belongs to. God's truth will stand whether or not I have it, or whoever has it. To the degree I believe and trust God for truth, then and then only do honour to the truth and support it.

Doug I said above:

God placed Acts 2:37 and Acts 7:54 in his word for us to consider the different results of those who hear the word of God, and "why"...... one's heart's was tender and showed faith and a desire to do whatever God commanded for them to do~proving that God had given them a new heart
NO!!!! God had not already given the men in Acts 2:37 a new heart yet. It is universally accepted (as far as I have experienced) that repentance is essential for salvation. Yet these men had not yet repented (or else Peter would not have instructed them to do it in verse 38). Yes, they had a soft, receptive heart. But they were not saved YET, had not received a clean heart YET. They still lacked something: repentance and baptism.
and removed the stony heart from them to cause them to be pricked, or else they would have acted the same way as those in Acts 7:54 ~the reason being is all men by nature are the same as portrayed in Romans 3:9-18.
The fact that the Holy Spirit works within a persons heart to soften it and make him receptive to the Gospel does not mean that this person is ALREADY saved. Tit 3:5 makes a distinction between the physical act of baptism (washing of regeneration) and the actions (renewal) of the Holy Spirit, and indicates that it takes BOTH for us to be saved.
 
See you always hollering show me scripture, then when its shown to you, you resist it or dont believe it. But the unregenerate are in the flesh and scripture says they cant please God Rom8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God
All that says is that you do not understand what that verse means. You apparently do not understand what "in the flesh" means in that verse and you apparently do not understand what "please God" means in that verse.
 
@Jim
Genesis 6:1-8 speaks of the increasing corruption of man. It talks about the sons of God. Who were they? Was Noah the only one? I don't think so.
Well Jim, at the end of the one hundred and twenty years preaching and building the ark, "yes", Noah and his small family was all that was left that any any fear of God. It really makes no difference what you or anyone else thinks, God has spoken.
 
@Jim
No I do not believe what you present. I am so very, very glad and gratified that God is not who and what you present Him to be.
Jim, again what you or myself believes matters little, what God's word teach settles the matter under consideration, whatever is being discuss. Of course you men (@Seabass @Studyman @Doug Brents, etc.) who have confidence in your flesh, reject what God said concerning man's conditions apart from God's grace being given to a person. We stand with Paul and with the faithful from among men who gives a true testimony of man by nature.

Philippians 3:3​

“For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.”
One would think that you have the ability to distinguish between the lost and the saved by simply observing him. That is simply not true. What you have described above is the two extreme ends of a spectrum.
We can only distinguish such men by following the scriptures and its Author who alone sees into the hearts of all men and reveals their inward thought to us by his word. Jim you truly know these not sure why you reject God's testimony, nevertheless please consider:
  • Deceptive and Perverse: The thoughts of the wicked are deceitful, and their counsel is designed to trick others. Their hearts harbor perversity, and they often speak with a "perverse mouth".
  • Prideful and Self-Absorbed: They are often arrogant, boasting with pride, and ignoring wise counsel, which often leads to their own destruction.
  • Sowers of Discord: They tend to create discord
God’s Warnings and Advice
  • Avoid Them: The Bible explicitly tells believers to stay away from such individuals, particularly those who create divisions contrary to divine teaching.
  • Do Not Envy Them: Scripture advises not to envy the wicked or their prosperity, as they have no future and their "lamp" will be put out.
  • Be Discerning: Believers are urged to use discernment to identify individuals who speak smooth words but hold evil intentions.
God's Stance on the Wicked
  • He Opposes Them: God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.
  • He Hates Their Ways: Scripture states that God’s soul hates the wicked, their violent ways, and their evil deeds.
  • Judgment is Certain: Though the wicked may thrive temporarily, God declares that they will suddenly face destruction and be broken without remedy.
List could be multiple pages, just very few here for your consideration.
I have known men who would be described by what you call a righteous man except they would not thank God or read the Bible, but they would be nothing at all like what you would call a wicked man.
Jim, I agree that even righteous men fall short every single day, yet, their overall life when considered does indeed do such things, or attempt to do them from time to time, and but wicked never do. Probably went a little overboard to make our points, but not that far over.
 
Later I will comment on #3824, 3825. I have too much going on at the present. RB
 
@Jim

Jim, again what you or myself believes matters little, what God's word teach settles the matter under consideration, whatever is being discuss. Of course you men (@Seabass @Studyman @Doug Brents, etc.) who have confidence in your flesh, reject what God said concerning man's conditions apart from God's grace being given to a person.
I can't answer for @Seabass, @Studyman or @Doug Brents, but I suspect my answer will not be very strange to them as well. I do not reject what God said concerning man's conditions apart from God's grace. I do most definitely reject what you think God meant and means by what He said concerning man's conditions apart from God's grace. From what you teach and preach, one would think that God's grace was and is totally absent from anyone who disagrees with the TULIP brand of religion.
We stand with Paul and with the faithful from among men who gives a true testimony of man by nature.
No, not really. You may read what Paul wrote, but you don't really stand with him; rather you interpose and insinuate a false brand of God's grace into nearly everything that Paul wrote. And to that extent, as for you, those that similarly interpose and insinuate are the only faithful.

Philippians 3:3​

“For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.”

We can only distinguish such men by following the scriptures and its Author who alone sees into the hearts of all men and reveals their inward thought to us by his word. Jim you truly know these not sure why you reject God's testimony, nevertheless please consider:
  • Deceptive and Perverse: The thoughts of the wicked are deceitful, and their counsel is designed to trick others. Their hearts harbor perversity, and they often speak with a "perverse mouth".
  • Prideful and Self-Absorbed: They are often arrogant, boasting with pride, and ignoring wise counsel, which often leads to their own destruction.
  • Sowers of Discord: They tend to create discord
God’s Warnings and Advice
  • Avoid Them: The Bible explicitly tells believers to stay away from such individuals, particularly those who create divisions contrary to divine teaching.
  • Do Not Envy Them: Scripture advises not to envy the wicked or their prosperity, as they have no future and their "lamp" will be put out.
  • Be Discerning: Believers are urged to use discernment to identify individuals who speak smooth words but hold evil intentions.
God's Stance on the Wicked
  • He Opposes Them: God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.
  • He Hates Their Ways: Scripture states that God’s soul hates the wicked, their violent ways, and their evil deeds.
  • Judgment is Certain: Though the wicked may thrive temporarily, God declares that they will suddenly face destruction and be broken without remedy.
List could be multiple pages, just very few here for your consideration.
The simple truth is that the only way you can find out if someone believes in God is to ask them. You have not the ability nor the authority to make the determination one way or the other.
Jim, I agree that even righteous men fall short every single day, yet, their overall life when considered does indeed do such things, or attempt to do them from time to time, and but wicked never do. Probably went a little overboard to make our points, but not that far over.
Even Hitler loved his dogs and treated them kindly. I am almost certain that God was not unhappy and would not have condemned Hitler for that; other things about Hitler, yes, about that no. And so it goes for all of humanity.

You would have God command that we all love our enemies and bless them that curse us, something that you claim God does not do. How is that standing with Paul or with Jesus for that matter?
 
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