Works salvation in context of a dispensation.

[Frank Russell]

In the old testament Solomon was a bad boy, God took the kingdom away from him and split it between Jeroboam and Rehoboam.

Before the split the inheritor of Judah and Benjamin only was asked by the other ten tribes to lessen the workload compared to the days of Solomon. Some wise men said that if they gave them what they wanted, they would serve him forever. However, Rehoboam chose to listen to young advisors who sounded like a lot of corporate people today and decided to increase their workload instead using insulting language.

Because of this, the kingdom of Judah and Israel came out of the previously unified kingdom. The mirror of this event to church history is the reformation which was also about "works."

To this day the argument is about "works" .. but it leaves me wondering .. which church figure back then was a bad boy?

This is to say the focus on works salvation is part of a larger construct .. and you do have the option to not participate if you so choose.

 

[Soyeong]

In the old testament Solomon was a bad boy, God took the kingdom away from him and split it between Jeroboam and Rehoboam.

Before the split the inheritor of Judah and Benjamin only was asked by the other ten tribes to lessen the workload compared to the days of Solomon. Some wise men said that if they gave them what they wanted, they would serve him forever. However, Rehoboam chose to listen to young advisors who sounded like a lot of corporate people today and decided to increase their workload instead using insulting language.

Because of this, the kingdom of Judah and Israel came out of the previously unified kingdom. The mirror of this event to church history is the reformation which was also about "works."

To this day the argument is about "works" .. but it leaves me wondering .. which church figure back then was a bad boy?

This is to say the focus on works salvation is part of a larger construct .. and you do have the option to not participate if you so choose.

Out of the years that I have spent on forums, I've only seen maybe a few people promote works salvation. It is far, far more common to for people to misunderstand others as teaching works salvation.

 

[Frank Russell]

Out of the years that I have spent on forums, I've only seen maybe a few people promote works salvation. It is far, far more common to for people to misunderstand others as teaching works salvation.

The accusation of teaching works salvation came from a misunderstanding about the nature of sacraments because of machiavellianism.

Afterwards, being accused of teaching works salvation was a go-to argument, but this is part of a prophetic construct that points to a wider fulfillment.

 

[Frank Russell]

The original biblical argument about this subject matter was whether righteousness could come by following the law, which the bible says it cannot.

The bible says the righteous live by faith.

So when people through their actions and words emphasize something other than "Testimony of Jesus" .. it begs the question: Which gospel is this, and why is it good news?

 

[Soyeong]

The original biblical argument about this subject matter was whether righteousness could come by following the law, which the bible says it cannot.

The bible says the righteous live by faith.

To become righteous means to become someone who practices righteousness and God's law is His instructions for how to practice righteousness, not for how to become righteous. For example, helping the poor in obedience to God's law is a way to practice righteousness, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to become righteous because the one and only way to become righteous is through faith. So becoming righteous through faith is becoming someone who practices righteousness in obedience to God's law through the same faith, which is the way to live by faith.

In Habakkuk 2:4, it is said in context of contrasting those who follow God with those who do not, so living by faith should not we understood as an alternative manner of living that one that is following God. Likewise, in Isaiah 51:7, it also says that the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to it.

So when people through their actions and words emphasize something other than "Testimony of Jesus" .. it begs the question: Which gospel is this, and why is it good news?

Please give examples of which actions and words are emphasizing something other than the Testimony of Jesus.

Jesus said in John 5:39-40 that all Scripture testifies about him. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. If someone considers the Psalms to be Scripture and therefore has the same view of God's law that is expressed in the Psalms, then they will consider that to be very good news.

 

[Frank Russell]

To become righteous means to become someone who practices righteousness and God's law is His instructions for how to practice righteousness

This is a perfect description of self righteousness. However, in this covenant Jesus is the Lord and our righteousness. A righteousness based on faith.

 

[Frank Russell]

Jesus said in John 5:39-40 that all Scripture testifies about him.

In the trials of the wilderness, the devil quoted scripture. Therefore, just because scripture is being quoted, it does not mean God is being represented.

In James in the latter half of chapter 3 the difference between demonic and heavenly wisdom is explained, it all boils down to root motives, and attitudes.

This piece of advice directed to a scripture acquainted audience.

People can have a copy of the bible, and have most of it memorized. However, this is not enough.

Any person whose spirit has not been regenerated can memorize content from a textbook and create a list of rules based on content absorbed. What is being examined here is the character exhibited from living by faith. This is because the righteous live by faith.

 

[Soyeong]

This is a perfect description of self righteousness. However, in this covenant Jesus is the Lord and our righteousness. A righteousness based on faith.

Self-righteousness does not involve relying on anyone else, so it is contradictory to think that relying on what God has instructed is about trying to become self-righteous. Jesus practiced his righteousness by living in obedience to God's law, so that is also the way that we live when he is our righteousness. Again, I said that the only way to become righteous is through faith and what we are become when we become righteous is someone who practices righteousness by that faith. The same is true for any character trait, for example, the way to become courageous is through faith and what someone is becoming when they become courageous is someone who practices courageousness.

In the trials of the wilderness, the devil quoted scripture. Therefore, just because scripture is being quoted, it does not mean God is being represented.

In James in the latter half of chapter 3 the difference between demonic and heavenly wisdom is explained, it all boils down to root motives, and attitudes.

This piece of advice directed to a scripture acquainted audience.

People can have a copy of the bible, and have most of it memorized. However, this is not enough.

Any person whose spirit has not been regenerated can memorize content from a textbook and create a list of rules based on content absorbed. What is being examined here is the character exhibited from living by faith. This is because the righteous live by faith.

Satan misquoted Scripture, though I agree that people can also quote Scripture that they have misunderstood to make a point that misrepresents God, so by all means please make the case for it if you think that I've done that.

God is trustworthy, therefore what He has instructed is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting in what He has instructed, while it is contradictory for someone to think that we should trust in God, but not trust in what He has instructed.

 

[Frank Russell]

Self-righteousness does not involve relying on anyone else

You misunderstand, it is self righteousness because you described in your post that following instructions made a person righteous. DIY Righteousness = Self Righteousness.

 

[Frank Russell]

Satan misquoted Scripture, though I agree that people can also quote Scripture that they have misunderstood to make a point that misrepresents God, so by all means please make the case for it if you think that I've done that.

It's not about you. It is about the concept rarely applied in Romans 3:4.

The correct way of viewing the scripture is that first, God is right, and everyone else is wrong: This includes ourselves.

We can read the scripture, quote the scripture, but view all of life through a dirty lense.

It simply is not possible to "know it all," thus a humble attitude is probably best.

 

[Soyeong]

You misunderstand, it is self righteousness because you described in your post that following instructions made a person righteous. DIY Righteousness = Self Righteousness.

I did not say that following instructions made a person righteous, but rather I said that the way to be made righteous is through faith and that what we are becoming when we become righteous is someone who practices righteousness through that faith. Furthermore, God's law is His instructions for how to practice righteousness, not for how to become righteous. Having faith is not about us and the way to have faith is by following God's instructions. Following any set of instructions is about putting our faith in the one who gave them to rightly guide us. Doing what is righteous is testifying about God's righteousness, not about establishing our own. When we do good works in obedience to God's instructions, we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why they bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:13-16), not establishing our own goodness.

 

[Frank Russell]

To become righteous means to become someone who practices righteousness and God's law is His instructions for how to practice righteousness, not for how to become righteous.

I did not say that following instructions made a person righteous

Yes you did.

As Jesus taught, let your yes be yes, and your no be no everything else comes from the evil one.

If you feel the need to hide what you are saying, it's highly probable to not be in line with the truth.

 

[Soyeong]

Yes you did.

Then either quote where I said that or admit that I did not.

As Jesus taught, let your yes be yes, and your no be no everything else comes from the evil one.

If you feel the need to hide what you are saying, it's highly probable to not be in line with the truth.

I feel no need to hide what I am saying. In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, so I've been teaching how to be in line with the truth.

 

[civic]

This is a perfect description of self righteousness. However, in this covenant Jesus is the Lord and our righteousness. A righteousness based on faith.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[Frank Russell]

Then either quote where I said that or admit that I did not.

I did quote it. That's what you said.

I feel no need to hide what I am saying. In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, so I've been teaching how to be in line with the truth.

Jesus is the truth. God's law is a shadow, no need to be living in darkness - we now have the light.

 

[Frank Russell]

In terms of dispensation of the previous conversation. I am speaking of the dispensation of the new covenant. This is in contrast to the Mosaic covenant which was made obsolete by Jesus. It still exists, but about as useless as the moon during the day.

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (Galatians 2:21)

By stating that righteousness comes by following the law, this is also stating that Christ is dead in vain. You cannot have one without the other.

 

[Soyeong]

I did quote it. That's what you said.

You quoted me as saying that God's law is his instructions for how to practice righteousness, not for how to become righteous, which is specifically denying what you claim that I said.

Jesus is the truth. God's law is a shadow, no need to be living in darkness - we now have the light.

God's law is His way (Psalms 119:1-3), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 32:46-47), and the way to know the Father (Exodus 33:13), and Jesus embodied God's law by living in sinless obedience to it, so he is the embodiment of the way, the truth, and the life, and the way to know the Father (John 14:6-7). The foreshadows testify about Christ and we should live in a way that testifies about him rather than a way that bears false witness against him.

In terms of dispensation of the previous conversation. I am speaking of the dispensation of the new covenant. This is in contrast to the Mosaic covenant which was made obsolete by Jesus. It still exists, but about as useless as the moon during the day.

In Exodus 31:14-17 and Leviticus 24:8, the Mosaic Covenant is eternal, so the only way that the New Covenant can replace it is if it does everything that the Mosaic Covenant does plus more, which is what it means to make something obsolete (Hebrews 8:13). So the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Hebrews 8:10) plus it is based on better promises and has a superior mediator (Hebrews 8:6). Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Torah by word and by example and he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of negating his ministry. Moreover, in Galatians 3:16-19, a new covenant does not nullify the promise of a covenant that has already been ratified, so it does not do away with our need to obey the Torah.

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (Galatians 2:21)

By stating that righteousness comes by following the law, this is also stating that Christ is dead in vain. You cannot have one without the other.

Again, I have never stated that righteousness comes by following the law, but rather I specifically denied that it does in what you quoted. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20), while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is what would be treating him as though he died in vain.

 

[Frank Russell]

You quoted me as saying that God's law is his instructions for how to practice righteousness, not for how to become righteous, which is specifically denying what you claim that I said.


God's law is His way (Psalms 119:1-3), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 32:46-47), and the way to know the Father (Exodus 33:13), and Jesus embodied God's law by living in sinless obedience to it, so he is the embodiment of the way, the truth, and the life, and the way to know the Father (John 14:6-7). The foreshadows testify about Christ and we should live in a way that testifies about him rather than a way that bears false witness against him.


In Exodus 31:14-17 and Leviticus 24:8, the Mosaic Covenant is eternal, so the only way that the New Covenant can replace it is if it does everything that the Mosaic Covenant does plus more, which is what it means to make something obsolete (Hebrews 8:13). So the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Hebrews 8:10) plus it is based on better promises and has a superior mediator (Hebrews 8:6). Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Torah by word and by example and he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of negating his ministry. Moreover, in Galatians 3:16-19, a new covenant does not nullify the promise of a covenant that has already been ratified, so it does not do away with our need to obey the Torah.


Again, I have never stated that righteousness comes by following the law, but rather I specifically denied that it does in what you quoted. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20), while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is what would be treating him as though he died in vain.

The Mosaic covenant was a covenant for slaves. Those who are born again by the Holy Spirit are sons, and not slaves.

Since the scripture implies most people do not experience this transformation, this law focus may be a reflection of a large group of church goers being atheists reading bibles.

For those living in the promise of the new and better covenant: All those words that are saying, "I'm not saying righteousness comes by the law" but only talks about following the law, are engineered to exhaust people so they stop arguing. However, I must assert Jesus Christ did not die in vain, and the bible makes a poor replacement for the Holy Spirit.

 

[civic]

The Mosaic covenant was a covenant for slaves. Those who are born again by the Holy Spirit are sons, and not slaves.

Since the scripture implies most people do not experience this transformation, this law focus may be a reflection of a large group of church goers being atheists reading bibles.

For those living in the promise of the new and better covenant: All those words that are saying, "I'm not saying righteousness comes by the law" but only talks about following the law, are engineered to exhaust people so they stop arguing. However, I must assert Jesus Christ did not die in vain, and the bible makes a poor replacement for the Holy Spirit.

Actually believers are slaves of Christ.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1401: δοῦλος

δοῦλος, δούλη, δοῦλον (derived by most from δέω, to tie, bind; by some from ΔΑΛΩ, to ensnare, capture ((?) others besides; cf. Vanicek, p. 322)); serving, subject to: παρεστήσατε τά μέλη ὑμῶν δοῦλα τῇ ἀκαθαρσία, Romans 6:19. Then substantively, ἡ δούλη, a female slave, bondmaid, handmaid: τοῦ Θεοῦ, τοῦ κυρίου, one who worships God and submits to him, Acts 2:18 (from Joel 2:29 ()); Luke 1:38, 48. ὁ δοῦλος, the Sept. for עֶבֶד;
1. a slave, bondman, man of servile condition;

a. properly: opposed to ἐλεύθερος, 1 Corinthians 7:21; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:28; Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:11; Revelation 6:15; Revelation 13:16; Revelation 19:18; opposed to κύριος, δεσπότης, οἰκοδεσπότης, Matthew 10:24; Matthew 13:27; Luke 12:46; John 15:15 Ephesians 6:5; Colossians 3:22; Colossians 4:1; 1 Timothy 6:1; Titus 2:9, and very often.


Acts 2:18 N-AMP
GRK: ἐπὶ τοὺς δούλους μου καὶ
NAS: EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I WILL IN THOSE
KJV: on my servants and on
INT: upon the servants of me and

Acts 4:29 N-DMP
GRK: δὸς τοῖς δούλοις σου μετὰ
NAS: and grant that Your bond-servants may speak
KJV: grant unto thy servants, that with all
INT: grant to the servants of you with

Acts 16:17 N-NMP
GRK: οἱ ἄνθρωποι δοῦλοι τοῦ θεοῦ
NAS: men are bond-servants of the Most High
KJV: are the servants of the most high
INT: men servants of the God

Romans 1:1 N-NMS
GRK: ΠΑΥΛΟΣ δοῦλος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
NAS: Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus,
KJV: Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
INT: Paul servant of Jesus Christ

Romans 6:16 N-AMP
GRK: παριστάνετε ἑαυτοὺς δούλους εἰς ὑπακοήν
NAS: to someone [as] slaves for obedience,
KJV: ye yield yourselves servants to obey,
INT: you yield yourselves servants for obedience

Romans 6:16 N-NMP
GRK: εἰς ὑπακοήν δοῦλοί ἐστε ᾧ
NAS: for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom
KJV: to obey, his servants ye are to whom
INT: for obedience servants you are to him whom

Romans 6:17 N-NMP
GRK: ὅτι ἦτε δοῦλοι τῆς ἁμαρτίας
NAS: be to God that though you were slaves of sin,
KJV: that ye were the servants of sin, but
INT: that you [once] were servants of sin

Romans 6:19 Adj-ANP
GRK: μέλη ὑμῶν δοῦλα τῇ ἀκαθαρσίᾳ
NAS: your members as slaves to impurity
KJV: members servants to uncleanness
INT: members of you in bondage to uncleanness

Romans 6:19 Adj-ANP
GRK: μέλη ὑμῶν δοῦλα τῇ δικαιοσύνῃ
NAS: your members as slaves to righteousness,
KJV: members servants to righteousness
INT: members of you in bondage to righteousness

Romans 6:20 N-NMP
GRK: ὅτε γὰρ δοῦλοι ἦτε τῆς
NAS: For when you were slaves of sin,
KJV: ye were the servants of sin,
INT: when indeed servants you were

1 Corinthians 7:21 N-NMS
GRK: δοῦλος ἐκλήθης μή
NAS: Were you called while a slave? Do not worry
KJV: Art thou called [being] a servant? care
INT: servant [being] were you called not

1 Corinthians 7:22 N-NMS
GRK: κυρίῳ κληθεὶς δοῦλος ἀπελεύθερος κυρίου
NAS: in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's
KJV: the Lord, [being] a servant, is
INT: [the] Lord having been called [being] a slave a freedman of [the] Lord

1 Corinthians 7:22 N-NMS
GRK: ἐλεύθερος κληθεὶς δοῦλός ἐστιν Χριστοῦ
NAS: while free, is Christ's slave.
KJV: is Christ's servant.
INT: free having been called a slave is of Christ

 

[Soyeong]

The Mosaic covenant was a covenant for slaves.

The Mosaic Covenant teaches us how to be free from slavery, which is why the Mosaic Law is of freedom (Psalms 119:45). In Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of it that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free. In Galatians 5:1, it is for freedom that God sets us free.

Those who are born again by the Holy Spirit are sons, and not slaves.

In Romans 8:4-14, those who are born again of the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law. In 1 John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not sons of God.

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law, in John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, and again in Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth. In Galatians 5:19-23, everything that is listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's law while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with it. In John 16:8, the Spirit has the role of convicting us of sin, and in 1 John 3:4, sin is the transgression of God's law. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to God's law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 30:6), and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey God's law.

Since the scripture implies most people do not experience this transformation, this law focus may be a reflection of a large group of church goers being atheists reading bibles.

There are many verses that connect our belief in the God of Israel with our obedience to Him, so it is those who refuse to obey Him that do not believe in Him. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. In James 2:18, he would show his faith by his works. In Psalms 119:30, he chose the way of faithfulness by setting God's law before him. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In John 3:36, believing in Jesus is equated with obeying Him. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of works. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to God's law is referred to as breaking faith. In Hebrews 3:18-19, unbelief is equated with disobedience. And so forth.

For those living in the promise of the new and better covenant: All those words that are saying, "I'm not saying righteousness comes by the law" but only talks about following the law, are engineered to exhaust people so they stop arguing. However, I must assert Jesus Christ did not die in vain, and the bible makes a poor replacement for the Holy Spirit.

Sorry if I was not clear, though I was not engineering anything to exhaust people so they stop arguing. I completely agree that we do not earn our righteousness by obeying God's law and that Christ did not die in vain. There can be any number of reasons for obeying God's law other than in order to earn our righteousness as a wage, so just because we not earn our righteousness does not mean that becoming righteous has nothing to do with becoming someone who practices righteousness. While there are many verses like Romans 4:15 that deny that we can earn our righteousness as a wage, there are many verses like Romans 2:13 that say that only doers of the law will be declared righteous, so clearly there must be a reason why becoming righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as our faith upholds God's law (Romans 3:31).

There are correct reasons for obeying God's law that the Bible speaks in favor or and incorrect reasons that the Bible speaks again, so we should obey it for the correct reasons and not the incorrect ones. For example, there are many verses in both the OT and the NT that connect our love for God with our obedience to His commandments, so we should obey them out of love, but we should not obey them in order to boast.