Without Israel, Without Covenants, Without the Law

[Victoria]

Most of the Bible talks about salvation. Most of the Bible talks about salvation coming through Israel, promised in covenants,
with required works of the law.

Christ sent Paul to offer salvation according to the mystery without Israel, without covenants, and without the law.
As a result salvation is all of Christ.

Without Israel

When God was operating in the world through his chosen people, salvation was said to be “of the Jews” (John 4:22). Salvation to the world would come through Israel’s rise to glory, and then the nations of the world would be blessed.

Being a Jew meant being the first to receive God’s blessing, and being the channel of blessing and salvation to Gentiles.

When Christ sent Paul to Gentiles it was because Israel had rejected Christ and salvation (Rom 11:25). Yes, Paul went to Jews first, but they did not receive it. Gentiles were receiving salvation without Israel through the preaching of Christ’s death and resurrection.

Paul proves that both Jew and Gentile are under sin, and so being an Israelite has no advantage today toward salvation by grace through faith. Two thousand years later, it remains the same that Gentiles continue being saved while the nation of Israel as a whole has rejected it.

Salvation according to the mystery is without Israel.

“What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;” – Romans 3:9

“For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.” – Romans 11:32

Without Covenants

What made Israel God’s chosen people were the covenants given exclusively to them. Gentiles had no privilege or advantage with any covenants with God.

Even when Israel failed, they could lay claim to the covenants of promises God had made with their fathers, David, and the prophets. God had promised them salvation. Confidence in salvation was found in the covenants God had made.

In contrast, Paul preaches complete confidence of salvation to people who never had any covenants. On what basis could they be so sure? Paul explains that the work for salvation was already finished, and was being offered to them freely.

While prophecy promised a future hope of salvation, it was a promise yet to be fulfilled. Paul preached a present possession of salvation according to the mystery.

God is under no obligation toward the church the body of Christ having made no covenants with the Body. Salvation is offered to all of grace without obligation or requirement. God and Israel still have obligations under the covenants to fulfill before salvation comes to them.

“For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.” – Romans 11:27

Only according to the mystery of Christ does salvation come without a covenant of promise, but directly through the promise in Christ by the gospel (Eph 3:6).

“How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery… That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:” – Eph 3:3-6″

Without The Law

How could man be righteous without obedience to the law or the commandments of God? This is explained clearly in Paul’s epistle to the Romans 3-5.

“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;” – Romans 3:21

The law was the subject of Israel’s old covenant, and the law was revised in Israel’s new covenant, but in both cases God’s law was what would prove their righteous faith.

According to the mystery Paul speaks of salvation without the law being offered freely to all men.

Conclusion

Israel will be restored. The covenants of God will be fulfilled. The law is holy, just, and good, and will one day be preached to all nations.

The mystery of Christ affects how salvation is preached. Salvation according to prophecy was through Israel, under the covenants, and accompanied by the law.

The mystery of Christ is how salvation comes to all without Israel, without covenants, and without the law. This hidden wisdom of God in Christ Jesus was kept secret since the world began, but is now made known to all nations.


By: Justin Johnson

Without Israel, Without Covenants, Without the Law

 

[Complete]

Hello @Victoria,

Thank you for yet another interesting thread.

You make mention of 'The Mystery of Christ', which Paul refers to in Ephesians 3:4: which he along with the other Apostles and Prophets of the New Testament; received knowledge of: which though the subject of the Old Testament Prophets was not known by them, requiring as it did, revelation from above.

This is not 'The Mystery', which Paul claims to have received in the opening verses of Ephesians 3 (Ephesians 3:1-3a) reference to 'The mystery in Christ' in (Ephesians 3:3b-5) being an aside. For He was to make known 'the Mystery', which had been revealed exclusively to Himself. beginning with Ephesians 3:1-3a. and continuing on following his reference to 'The Mystery of Christ'. in verses 3:6-13.

This Mystery, revealed to Paul exclusively, is not the subject of Old Testament Prophecy, and is therefore unsearchable (Eph. 3:8-9), These are 'the unsearchable riches of Christ', the fellowship of which Paul had been chosen to make known. ' Hid in God',
it is not the subject of his earlier epistles, but is made known in his later epistles, written from prison. (Ephesians 3:6-11).
Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon.

'That the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs, and of the same body,
and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel:
Whereof I was made a minister,
according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me
by the effectual working of His power.
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given,
that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery,
which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,
who created all things by Jesus Christ:'
(Eph 3:6-9)

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[Complete]

Thank you, @Victoria, for yet another interesting thread.

 

[Victoria]

Thank you, @Victoria, for yet another interesting thread.

You're so very welcome, @Complete (Chris)

 

[armylngst]

Hello @Victoria,

Thank you for yet another interesting thread.

You make mention of 'The Mystery of Christ', which Paul refers to in Ephesians 3:4: which he along with the other Apostles and Prophets of the New Testament; received knowledge of: which though the subject of the Old Testament Prophets was not known by them, requiring as it did, revelation from above.

This is not 'The Mystery', which Paul claims to have received in the opening verses of Ephesians 3 (Ephesians 3:1-3a) reference to 'The mystery in Christ' in (Ephesians 3:3b-5) being an aside. For He was to make known 'the Mystery', which had been revealed exclusively to Himself. beginning with Ephesians 3:1-3a. and continuing on following his reference to 'The Mystery of Christ'. in verses 3:6-13.

This Mystery, revealed to Paul exclusively, is not the subject of Old Testament Prophecy, and is therefore unsearchable (Eph. 3:8-9), These are 'the unsearchable riches of Christ', the fellowship of which Paul had been chosen to make known. ' Hid in God',
it is not the subject of his earlier epistles, but is made known in his later epistles, written from prison. (Ephesians 3:6-11).
Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon.

'That the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs, and of the same body,
and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel:
Whereof I was made a minister,
according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me
by the effectual working of His power.
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given,
that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery,
which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,
who created all things by Jesus Christ:'
(Eph 3:6-9)

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

That mystery, which I am sure had Peter ready to jump out of his skin in utterly uncontrolled excitement, was the church, the body of Christ. A church that would not be divided as a church of the Jews, and a church of the Gentiles, but that both would be one in the body, with access to God through one Spirit. Peter was probably falling over himself in explaining it to both the Gentiles, and most importantly, those Jews who came with him.

"44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the [ag]message. 45 All the [ah]circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days."

Peter recognized what God was doing, because God told him in advance. There is an author who says that this is the result of Jesus giving Peter the keys that open door that cannot/will not be shut. In this case, the door was the entrance to the church for the Gentiles, shown by the Holy Spirit baptizing them all while Peter was still speaking. To strengthen this, the author showed that while the Samaritans received the good news from Philip and other apostles, they specifically waited for Peter, as the Samaritans did not receive the Holy Spirit until Peter came. The keys belonged solely to Peter, and did not get passed on to the Catholic church, or any church, no matter what people say. They solely belonged to the age of the founding/building of the church. Same as the power to bind and loosen. To see that power that Jesus gave in action, is to see Paul giving Ananias and Sapphira a death sentence, and heaven carried it out. That power belongs solely to the apostles, not the church. The church can discipline, but not like the apostles.Paul could even turn a believer over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that their spirit might be saved.

So they myster Paul spoke of, which was not at all visible in the Old Testament, was the church. Even though Israel is the chosen people of God, and in this case, it is to the elect within Israel, not all Israel, the Gentiles would find mercy and grace coming freely from the Father, in salvation. The spiritual blessings promised to Abraham that would bless all the nations of the world.

 

[Complete]

'... But when I saw that they walked not uprightly
according to the truth of the gospel,
I (Paul) said unto Peter before them all,
If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles,
and not as do the Jews,
why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
We who are Jews by nature,
and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law,
but by the faith of Jesus Christ,
even we have believed in Jesus Christ,
that we might be justified by the faith of Christ,
and not by the works of the law:
for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.'
(Gal 2:15)

'Now therefore why tempt ye God, (said Peter)
to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples,
which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ
we shall be saved, even as they.'
(Act 15:10-11)

Praise God!

 

[praise_yeshua]

So they myster Paul spoke of, which was not at all visible in the Old Testament, was the church. Even though Israel is the chosen people of God, and in this case, it is to the elect within Israel, not all Israel, the Gentiles would find mercy and grace coming freely from the Father, in salvation. The spiritual blessings promised to Abraham that would bless all the nations of the world.

Rubbish.

Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Dispensationalism rots the brain and I was once a dispensationalist. I know better than most anyone I've ever meet.

Do you know Scofield in his commentary spoke of how Israel was the church in the wilderness when they had no place to rest. Continually moving and look for a city who's builder and maker was God?

Who do you think they got that from? Abraham maybe?

 

[Complete]

Rubbish.

Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Dispensationalism rots the brain and I was once a dispensationalist. I know better than most anyone I've ever meet.

Do you know Scofield in his commentary spoke of how Israel was the church in the wilderness when they had no place to rest. Continually moving and look for a city who's builder and maker was God?

Who do you think they got that from? Abraham maybe?

'This Moses whom they refused, saying,
Who made thee a ruler and a judge?
the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer
by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs
.. in the land of Egypt,
.... and in the Red sea,
...... and in the wilderness forty years.
This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel,
A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you
of your brethren, like unto me; Him shall ye hear.
This is He, that was in the church in the wilderness
with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai,
and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
To whom our fathers would not obey,
but thrust him from them,
and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,'
(Act 7:35-39)

Hello @praise_yeshua, & @armyingst,

'The Mystery of Christ' is the subject of the Old Testament Prophets (Eph. 3:4-5), and is therefore searchable, made known to all the New Testament Apostles and Prophets: but 'The Mystery' (Eph. 3) made known to Paul exclusively, concerning The Church which is The Body of Christ', we are told is not searchable, (Eph. 3:8-10; Col. 1:26), therefore cannot be found in the Old Testament Scriptures or anywhere else in the word of God, other than in those epistles written by Paul from prison, namely, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon.

'The church' (or assembly - i.e., a called out company) 'in the wilderness', was the nation of Israel itself.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[praise_yeshua]

'This Moses whom they refused, saying,
Who made thee a ruler and a judge?
the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer
by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs
.. in the land of Egypt,
.... and in the Red sea,
...... and in the wilderness forty years.
This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel,
A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you
of your brethren, like unto me; Him shall ye hear.
This is He, that was in the church in the wilderness
with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai,
and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
To whom our fathers would not obey,
but thrust him from them,
and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,'
(Act 7:35-39)

Hello @praise_yeshua, & @armyingst,

'The Mystery of Christ' is the subject of the Old Testament Prophets (Eph. 3:4-5), and is therefore searchable, made known to all the New Testament Apostles and Prophets: but 'The Mystery' (Eph. 3) made known to Paul exclusively, concerning The Church which is The Body of Christ', we are told is not searchable, (Eph. 3:8-10; Col. 1:26), therefore cannot be found in the Old Testament Scriptures or anywhere else in the word of God, other than in those epistles written by Paul from prison, namely, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon.

'The church' (or assembly - i.e., a called out company) 'in the wilderness', was the nation of Israel itself.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Everything is a mystery to unbelievers. The god of this world didn't know. The rulers of this world didn't know.

The faithful have always KNOWN. When you don't believe something, it means nothing to you.

So don't point to verses that speak to unbelief of others as being mysterious as if God didn't have a plan nor that God didn't reveal His will from the beginning.

Eve was given a covenant promise from God that her seed would defeat Satan. You can read about it from the hand of the prophet Moses in the book of Genesis. Eve lived it. She heard the very voice of God say it. It was real to her. So don't appeal some "mystery" you claim was never revealed in the OT. That is not true and not what the verses you're referencing teach or express. It is your interpretation and it is very wrong. It borders on deception. Your life will change if you embrace the full plan of God that existed before this this world was ever formed. Christ is the Eternal Son. He is never been anything other that His Eternal Character demands. He has never deceived the faithful. Never.

 

[Complete]

Everything is a mystery to unbelievers. The god of this world didn't know. The rulers of this world didn't know.

The faithful have always KNOWN. When you don't believe something, it means nothing to you.

So don't point to verses that speak to unbelief of others as being mysterious as if God didn't have a plan nor that God didn't reveal His will from the beginning.

Eve was given a covenant promise from God that her seed would defeat Satan. You can read about it from the hand of the prophet Moses in the book of Genesis. Eve lived it. She heard the very voice of God say it. It was real to her. So don't appeal some "mystery" you claim was never revealed in the OT. That is not true and not what the verses you're referencing teach or express. It is your interpretation and it is very wrong. It borders on deception. Your life will change if you embrace the full plan of God that existed before this this world was ever formed. Christ is the Eternal Son. He is never been anything other that His Eternal Character demands. He has never deceived the faithful. Never.

'Now we have received, not the spirit of the world,
but the spirit which is of God;
that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak,
not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth,
but which the Holy Ghost teacheth;
comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
for they are foolishness unto him:
neither can he know them,
because they are spiritually discerned.'
(1Cor 2:12-14)

Hello @praise_yeshua ,

The Lord Jesus Christ spoke the mysteries of the Kingdom of God in parables, which were designed not to reveal but to hide truth from those who were rejecting His word. He took His disciples to one side and taught them the meaning of each one, because they had eyes to see and ears to hear (Matt. 13:11; Luke 8:10).

' O the depth of the riches
both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
how unsearchable are His judgments,
and His ways past finding out!'
(Rom.11:33 )

'Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints,
is this grace given,
that I should preach among the Gentiles
the unsearchable riches of Christ;'
(Eph.3:8 )

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently,
who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Searching what, or what manner of time
the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,
when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ,
and the glory that should follow.
Unto whom it was revealed,
that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister
the things, which are now reported unto you
by them that have preached the gospel unto you
with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven;
which things the angels desire to look into.'
(1Pe 1:10-12)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[praise_yeshua]

'Now we have received, not the spirit of the world,
but the spirit which is of God;
that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak,
not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth,
but which the Holy Ghost teacheth;
comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
for they are foolishness unto him:
neither can he know them,
because they are spiritually discerned.'
(1Cor 2:12-14)

Hello @praise_yeshua ,

The Lord Jesus Christ spoke the mysteries of the Kingdom of God in parables, which were designed not to reveal but to hide truth from those who were rejecting His word. He took His disciples to one side and taught them the meaning of each one, because they had eyes to see and ears to hear (Matt. 13:11; Luke 8:10).

' O the depth of the riches
both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
how unsearchable are His judgments,
and His ways past finding out!'
(Rom.11:33 )

'Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints,
is this grace given,
that I should preach among the Gentiles
the unsearchable riches of Christ;'
(Eph.3:8 )

* Also the Lord knows the heart of man, and knows what they are capable of taking in. What love and grace!:-

'And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual,
but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
I have fed you with milk, and not with meat:
for hitherto ye were not able to bear it,
neither yet now are ye able.
For ye are yet carnal:
for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions,
are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
(1Cor. 3:1-3)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Good. Good. I seldom have anyone that will actually talk about this.

Let me quote a verse relative to your appeal to parables. Something Jesus Christ Himself was referenced as saying.

Luk 8:9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Read those two verses several times. Notice how Jesus told these disciples they had everything they needed to understand what HE was saying.

Fast forward to the fact the disciples rejected the need of His death. Over and over again the disciples just refused to believe what they already knew. Over and over again.

You find two of these disciples journeying to Emmaus in absolute despair because they refused to believe what Jesus had said to them. Things they should have accepted without question.

You''' find Luke's record below. The only record that exists of these events.

Jesus called his own disciples "fools" and "slow of heart to believe". He references the PROPHETS... Plural. Not just Moses. Not just Isaiah. Not just Jeremiah. ALL THE PROPHETS.

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Read it again. ALL THE PROPHETS taught and said the same exact thing. This the disciples refused to believe. This "thing" you claim is a mystery. You shouldn't be saying this at all. YOU should be calling those who deny this "fools" just like Jesus did.

Harsh, but true. We are a foolish lot. Human beings that refuse to believe unless we can "stick our hands into his side".

This "mystery" you're preaching is clouding/obscuring the facts of your unbelief.

As the disciples needed to do, so do you.

Luk 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

I've never meet anyone in my life that can deny what I've said above. We have the words. There is no alternate interpretation here. So surprise me. Resist what is clearly declared in the Scriptures.

Believe what you were taught instead of what Jesus revealed and proved in his own body. They knew. You know.

The people that taught this nonsense are seeking to keep you in your unbelief. Don't cooperate with them.

Don't believe me. Believe what Jesus said.

Now. Tell me where I'm wrong. Give me details.

 

[Complete]

Good. Good. I seldom have anyone that will actually talk about this.

Let me quote a verse relative to your appeal to parables. Something Jesus Christ Himself was referenced as saying.

Luk 8:9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Read those two verses several times. Notice how Jesus told these disciples they had everything they needed to understand what HE was saying.

Fast forward to the fact the disciples rejected the need of His death. Over and over again the disciples just refused to believe what they already knew. Over and over again.

You find two of these disciples journeying to Emmaus in absolute despair because they refused to believe what Jesus had said to them. Things they should have accepted without question.

You''' find Luke's record below. The only record that exists of these events.

Jesus called his own disciples "fools" and "slow of heart to believe". He references the PROPHETS... Plural. Not just Moses. Not just Isaiah. Not just Jeremiah. ALL THE PROPHETS.

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Read it again. ALL THE PROPHETS taught and said the same exact thing. This the disciples refused to believe. This "thing" you claim is a mystery. You shouldn't be saying this at all. YOU should be calling those who deny this "fools" just like Jesus did.

Harsh, but true. We are a foolish lot. Human beings that refuse to believe unless we can "stick our hands into his side".

This "mystery" you're preaching is clouding/obscuring the facts of your unbelief.

As the disciples needed to do, so do you.

Luk 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

I've never meet anyone in my life that can deny what I've said above. We have the words. There is no alternate interpretation here. So surprise me. Resist what is clearly declared in the Scriptures.

Believe what you were taught instead of what Jesus revealed and proved in his own body. They knew. You know.

The people that taught this nonsense are seeking to keep you in your unbelief. Don't cooperate with them.

Don't believe me. Believe what Jesus said.

Now. Tell me where I'm wrong. Give me details.

11.30pm - 24th January 2026
Hello @praise_yeshua

I have seen your message. Too late now to reply. Tomorrow going out for the day. Will come to this on Monday, God willing.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[armylngst]

Rubbish.

Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

And you are defeated by language. The word for church here is ALSO translated (and more properly here) as an assembly. A collection of people. If one would properly translate the language this wouldn't be such an issue, and you wouldn't destroy your own argument.

Dispensationalism rots the brain and I was once a dispensationalist. I know better than most anyone I've ever meet.

The how did you miss the above?
"38 This is the one who was in the [a]congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living oracles to pass on to you." I mean, it looks like the literal translations (this being NASB) got it right.
"`This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the messenger who is speaking to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers who did receive the living oracles to give to us;" (Youngs Literal Translation)

Having a proper translation is very important.

Do you know Scofield in his commentary spoke of how Israel was the church in the wilderness when they had no place to rest. Continually moving and look for a city who's builder and maker was God?

If you have an imperfect translation, you say church. However, again, the original language does not mean church. Granted, the writers of the King James had an agenda.

 

[Complete]

Good. Good. I seldom have anyone that will actually talk about this.

Let me quote a verse relative to your appeal to parables. Something Jesus Christ Himself was referenced as saying.

Luk 8:9 And His disciples asked Him, saying, What might this parable be?
Luk 8:10 And He said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Read those two verses several times. Notice how Jesus told these disciples they had everything they needed to understand what HE was saying.

Hi there @praise_yeshua,

This God given privilege, to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God from the mouth of the Lord Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son, is awesome.

Fast forward to the fact the disciples rejected the need of His death. Over and over again the disciples just refused to believe what they already knew. Over and over again.

You find two of these disciples journeying to Emmaus in absolute despair because they refused to believe what Jesus had said to them. Things they should have accepted without question.

You find Luke's record below. The only record that exists of these events.

Jesus called his own disciples "fools" and "slow of heart to believe". He references the PROPHETS... Plural. Not just Moses. Not just Isaiah. Not just Jeremiah. ALL THE PROPHETS.

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Read it again. ALL THE PROPHETS taught and said the same exact thing. This the disciples refused to believe. This "thing" you claim is a mystery. You shouldn't be saying this at all. YOU should be calling those who deny this "fools" just like Jesus did.

Harsh, but true. We are a foolish lot. Human beings that refuse to believe unless we can "stick our hands into his side".

This "mystery" you're preaching is clouding/obscuring the facts of your unbelief.

As the disciples needed to do, so do you.

Luk 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

I've never meet anyone in my life that can deny what I've said above. We have the words. There is no alternate interpretation here. So surprise me. Resist what is clearly declared in the Scriptures.

Believe what you were taught instead of what Jesus revealed and proved in his own body. They knew. You know.

The people that taught this nonsense are seeking to keep you in your unbelief. Don't cooperate with them.

Don't believe me. Believe what Jesus said.

Now. Tell me where I'm wrong. Give me details.

I am sorry, but I just cannot follow your argument, praise_yeshua, so I do not know how to respond.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[praise_yeshua]

Hi there @praise_yeshua,

This God given privilege, to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God from the mouth of the Lord Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son, is awesome.



I am sorry, but I just cannot follow your argument, praise_yeshua, so I do not know how to respond.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

You are making the argument that the disciples were purposely blinded to some "mystery" they shouldn't have understood.

I am saying, they should have understood. God said it. Only unbelief in what God said made it a mystery. UNBELIEF.

By reasoning away their unbelief, you're basically relieving them of culpability in their own unbelief.

Simple question. Should they have known what you claim is a mystery?

 

[praise_yeshua]

And you are defeated by language. The word for church here is ALSO translated (and more properly here) as an assembly. A collection of people. If one would properly translate the language this wouldn't be such an issue, and you wouldn't destroy your own argument.

I didn't. There are many assemblies. Many congregations. Each with their own leaders. Christ came to bring them all together in ONE BODY.

Only ONE BODY. There is no other BODY.

Is there more than one BODY? You should realize by now that I'm way ahead of you. All these friends over the years I've lost in these conversation are not still angry with me because I'm wrong. They know I'm right. That is why they can't face me anymore. They need to be to themselves and create their own followings.

The how did you miss the above?
"38 This is the one who was in the [a]congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living oracles to pass on to you." I mean, it looks like the literal translations (this being NASB) got it right.
"`This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the messenger who is speaking to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers who did receive the living oracles to give to us;" (Youngs Literal Translation)

I simply mentioned what very influential Dispensationalist said. You're not a talented Dispensationalist. You don't know the teaching to the level I do.

Having a proper translation is very important.

If you have an imperfect translation, you say church. However, again, the original language does not mean church. Granted, the writers of the King James had an agenda.

I study the manuscripts. I have for many many years. You keep choosing between translations. I recommend you learn it yourself.

This "church" "Israel" fight is a contrived bunch of nonsense. Most everything is. Just a distraction. Just circular arguments that go nowhere. They are designed to distract you. It has worked. Start paying attention.

Like I said.... I'm way ahead of you.

Is there more than One Body????

So go ahead and tell me about the love the Father has for Israel that separates the Father from the Son. Go for it. That is the inevitable conclusion to this argument you don't understand.

I'm waiting......

 

[armylngst]

I didn't. There are many assemblies. Many congregations. Each with their own leaders. Christ came to bring them all together in ONE BODY.

Only ONE BODY. There is no other BODY.

Is there more than one BODY?

Only if we go with your translation/interpretation. I don't, by the way. I go with the proper interpretation which is that Israel was a congregation/assembly of people. I looked at a few Bible versions, and the King James was the only one that said church. Considering the Catholic church was all about erasing Israel, I wasn't at all surprised. Israel was not the church, and the church is not Israel. Israel is the wife of Jehovah, while the church is the bride of Christ. I forget what it is called if a father goes after their son's bride?

You should realize by now that I'm way ahead of you. All these friends over the years I've lost in these conversation are not still angry with me because I'm wrong. They know I'm right. That is why they can't face me anymore. They need to be to themselves and create their own followings.

Who needs a following? Granted I was one who never wanted to be popular, and always pointed people to God, and gave information they could use in reaching their own conclusions.

I simply mentioned what very influential Dispensationalist said. You're not a talented Dispensationalist. You don't know the teaching to the level I do.

Dispensationalism is so interesting I fell asleep in the class. Covenant theology as well. The only thing I really take from dispensationalism is the distinction between Israel and the church. However, I probably take it a lot further then they do.

I study the manuscripts. I have for many many years. You keep choosing between translations. I recommend you learn it yourself.

I occassionally use interlinear versions.

This "church" "Israel" fight is a contrived bunch of nonsense. Most everything is. Just a distraction. Just circular arguments that go nowhere. They are designed to distract you. It has worked. Start paying attention.

There is no fight. The church and Israel are distinct because they each had/have their own purpose in God's plan. One plan, one conclusion, however, there are multiple parts to God's plan. Even so, there is one line that runs through the plan from start to finish. It breaks off into different plot lines, but then we have, and Jesus spoke to, the consummation, where all the parts come together and end. The disciples asked about this complete end, this consummation of everything.

Like I said.... I'm way ahead of you.

Is there more than One Body????

Sure. Catholics, Baptists, etc. No, there is one body of the church. There is also Israel. If one didn't change the book of Daniel, one would see in Daniel 9 that God gave out a whole prophecy that deals solely with his [Daniel's] people, and their holy city [Jerusalem]. It also gives 6 specific things that will be seen when God finishes this plan, which we do not see today. The interesting part is in translating the passage, a possible understanding is that God cut out 70 sets of 7 for dealing with Israel. Why is that interesting? 2-3 chaptes in Daniel deal specifically with the times of the Gentiles. This time started with Nebuchadnezzar's first attack on Jerusalem, and ends at Jesus' second coming. So 70 sets of 7 of that time has been cut out where God is dealing specifically with Israel. No focus on the Gentiles, only Israel. A Gentile gives a decree, but it solely affects.... Israel, and it kicks off the 70 sets of 7.

The remnant of Israel does not have anything to do with Jesus until His second coming. At that time, they repent of their rejection of Christ, and God saves them. So, if they aren't saved, if they aren't believers, are they a part of any body? Where did you get this idea of another body? There is the church, made up of believing Gentiles and Jews, and there is Israel, in unbelief, made up of those who are God's elect, but not believers yet, and those who face God's judgment. (The 2/3rds of Zechariah who would be destroyed, next to the 1/3rd that would be purged, purified... saved.)

So go ahead and tell me about the love the Father has for Israel that separates the Father from the Son. Go for it. That is the inevitable conclusion to this argument you don't understand.

I'm waiting......

You will find the truth is the complete context of scripture. Please stop reinterpreting scripture to fit your beliefs.

 

[Complete]

You are making the argument that the disciples were purposely blinded to some "mystery" they shouldn't have understood.

I am saying, they should have understood. God said it. Only unbelief in what God said made it a mystery. UNBELIEF.

By reasoning away their unbelief, you're basically relieving them of culpability in their own unbelief.

Simple question. Should they have known what you claim is a mystery?

'And His disciples asked Him, saying, What might this parable be?
And He said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God:
but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.'
(Luk 8:9-10)

Hello @praise_yeshua,

I am not making an argument of any sort.

The Lord Jesus Christ Himself called the parables 'The mysteries of the Kingdom' (Matt. 13:11, Luke 8:9-10), a mystery is something that cannot be known unless revealed. The Lord Jesus Christ revealed them to His disciples, for they had God given eyes to see and ears to hear.

The truth regarding the events leading up to and including the Lord's death and resurrection that the disciples had difficulty in coming to terms with, and were in denial concerning, were all part of 'The mystery of Christ' which was the subject of the Old Testament prophets, and revealed to the Apostles and Prophets of the New Testament (Luke 24:45) 'Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,' This was done following His death and resurrection.

In Ephesians 3:4-5, Paul said, 'Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ, Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit'.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[praise_yeshua]

'And His disciples asked Him, saying, What might this parable be?
And He said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God:
but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.'
(Luk 8:9-10)

Hello @praise_yeshua,

I am not making an argument of any sort.

The Lord Jesus Christ Himself called the parables 'The mysteries of the Kingdom' (Matt. 13:11, Luke 8:9-10), a mystery is something that cannot be known unless revealed. The Lord Jesus Christ revealed them to His disciples, for they had God given eyes to see and ears to hear.

The truth regarding the events leading up to and including the Lord's death and resurrection that the disciples had difficulty in coming to terms with, and were in denial concerning, were all part of 'The mystery of Christ' which was the subject of the Old Testament prophets, and revealed to the Apostles and Prophets of the New Testament (Luke 24:45) 'Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,' This was done following His death and resurrection.

In Ephesians 3:4-5, Paul said, 'Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ, Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit'.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

There is so much wrong with what you just said. I've listened to false teachers preach this my entire life. I once believed it myself. I got saved and began learning. This changed me. Those that seek Christ find. They change.

I have made several points to you that you're struggling to defend.

The truth is a mystery to unbelievers..... right?

Have you ever heard something you didn't believe and it meant nothing to you?

Yes. Jesus FORCED his disciples to face their unbelief.

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

So tell me again that they shouldn't have known because their "eyes weren't opened".....

How about Peter?

Mar 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
Mar 8:32 And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.
Mar 8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

I suppose Peter just didn't understand this "mystery".... right?

 

[Complete]

There is so much wrong with what you just said. I've listened to false teachers preach this my entire life. I once believed it myself. I got saved and began learning. This changed me. Those that seek Christ find. They change.

I have made several points to you that you're struggling to defend.

The truth is a mystery to unbelievers..... right?

Have you ever heard something you didn't believe and it meant nothing to you?

Yes. Jesus FORCED his disciples to face their unbelief.

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

So tell me again that they shouldn't have known because their "eyes weren't opened".....

How about Peter?

Mar 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
Mar 8:32 And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.
Mar 8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

I suppose Peter just didn't understand this "mystery".... right?

Hi @praise_yeshua,

I am aware of the difficulties the disciples had in accepting the facts that the Lord gave concerning the death that awaited him.. I do not seek to defend that or explain it away. It is simply a fact.

In Christ Jesus
Chris