Why People Are Saved

[Ozias]

People Are Saved because They Trust Christ as Lord and Savior. Scripture frequently teaches that we are saved from our sins by trusting Christ as Lord and Savior. John tells us: “But to all who did receive him [Jesus], who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God” (John 1:12). Paul says the same thing: “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans. 10:9).

And so does Peter: “Though you do not now see him [Jesus Christ], you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls” (1 Peter 1:8b–9). Examples could easily be multiplied; people come to the Lord by believing that Christ died and rose to deliver them from judgment. This is clear according to Scripture and is not nullified by the fact that there are more ultimate answers to the question why people are saved.

People Are Saved because the Holy Spirit Opens Their Hearts to the Gospel. As I'm sure you have heard many times... in the fall human beings lost the ability to believe for salvation. As fallen sinners, we are unable to move toward God. Teaching that people must trust Christ to be saved, therefore, is insufficient. We must go beyond that by celebrating the preceding grace of God that enables sinners to believe. Various passages teach that people come to Christ because God enables them to do so.

In his account of Paul’s dealings with Lydia in Philippi, Luke underscores that God must work in sinners’ lives in order for them to believe. Lydia was among the women gathered by the riverside to pray. When Paul preached, “the Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by” him (Acts 16:14). As a result she believed in Christ, and was baptized along with her family (v. 15). When the Lord opens people’s hearts to the gospel, they trust Christ as Lord.

Paul teaches the same thing as he instructs the Corinthians on the proper use of spiritual gifts: “Therefore I want you to understand that … no one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except in the Holy Spirit” (1 Cor. 12:3). The Christian confession leading to salvation, as rehearsed in Romans 10:9–10, is that Jesus is Lord. Paul teaches that no one can truly make that confession unless the Spirit works in him or her.

Scripture teaches both that sinners must believe in Christ for salvation and that those in whom the Spirit works will believe. How can we fit these truths together? By maintaining that those in whose lives the Spirit works will trust Christ for eternal life, something they would not have done on their own. We don't just wake up one day and decide to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and savior. God opens our hearts to Jesus, and by the Spirit we confess that Jesus is Lord (Acts 16:14; 1 Cor. 12:3; John 6:44).

Then there is this...People Are Saved because Christ Died and Rose to Save Them.

It is important to go further back in history to answer the question why people are saved. People are not saved by believing just anything; according to Scripture, saving faith has specific content. It is faith in one particular person—in him who said: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). Of all religious leaders, Jesus Christ alone is the Savior of the world. That this fact is very unpopular in current pluralistic societies, including America’s, does not make it any less true. Peter speaks plain words: “And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).

I'm sure you've heard this one before. No one is not saved merely by believing historical facts about Jesus—that he was born of the Virgin Mary, performed miracles, died, lived again, ascended to heaven, and will return. One could believe all those truths and not be saved. Saving faith is faith that Jesus died and was raised to save sinners, as Paul says when he summarizes the gospel: “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, [and] that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures” (1 Cor. 15:3–4). People must believe that Jesus died and rose to save them, as Paul told the Philippian jailer: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household” (Acts 16:31).

There is a third reason why people are saved: “The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost” (1 Tim. 1:15). People are saved, then, because they trust Christ, because the Holy Spirit enables them to believe, and because Jesus has loved them and given himself for them. All three are true, although they differ in ultimacy. Most ultimate is the work that Jesus did in the first century. That work establishes our faith; we are saved by believing in Christ’s saving work, as the Spirit enables us to believe.

 

[civic]

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him

Hebrews 4:2
For we have heard the Good News, just as they did. They heard the message, but it did them no good, because when they heard it, they did not accept it with faith

 

[Soyeong]

People Are Saved because They Trust Christ as Lord and Savior. Scripture frequently teaches that we are saved from our sins by trusting Christ as Lord and Savior. John tells us: “But to all who did receive him [Jesus], who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God” (John 1:12). Paul says the same thing: “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans. 10:9).

And so does Peter: “Though you do not now see him [Jesus Christ], you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls” (1 Peter 1:8b–9). Examples could easily be multiplied; people come to the Lord by believing that Christ died and rose to deliver them from judgment. This is clear according to Scripture and is not nullified by the fact that there are more ultimate answers to the question why people are saved.

People Are Saved because the Holy Spirit Opens Their Hearts to the Gospel. As I'm sure you have heard many times... in the fall human beings lost the ability to believe for salvation. As fallen sinners, we are unable to move toward God. Teaching that people must trust Christ to be saved, therefore, is insufficient. We must go beyond that by celebrating the preceding grace of God that enables sinners to believe. Various passages teach that people come to Christ because God enables them to do so.

In his account of Paul’s dealings with Lydia in Philippi, Luke underscores that God must work in sinners’ lives in order for them to believe. Lydia was among the women gathered by the riverside to pray. When Paul preached, “the Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by” him (Acts 16:14). As a result she believed in Christ, and was baptized along with her family (v. 15). When the Lord opens people’s hearts to the gospel, they trust Christ as Lord.

Paul teaches the same thing as he instructs the Corinthians on the proper use of spiritual gifts: “Therefore I want you to understand that … no one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except in the Holy Spirit” (1 Cor. 12:3). The Christian confession leading to salvation, as rehearsed in Romans 10:9–10, is that Jesus is Lord. Paul teaches that no one can truly make that confession unless the Spirit works in him or her.

Scripture teaches both that sinners must believe in Christ for salvation and that those in whom the Spirit works will believe. How can we fit these truths together? By maintaining that those in whose lives the Spirit works will trust Christ for eternal life, something they would not have done on their own. We don't just wake up one day and decide to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and savior. God opens our hearts to Jesus, and by the Spirit we confess that Jesus is Lord (Acts 16:14; 1 Cor. 12:3; John 6:44).

Then there is this...People Are Saved because Christ Died and Rose to Save Them.

It is important to go further back in history to answer the question why people are saved. People are not saved by believing just anything; according to Scripture, saving faith has specific content. It is faith in one particular person—in him who said: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). Of all religious leaders, Jesus Christ alone is the Savior of the world. That this fact is very unpopular in current pluralistic societies, including America’s, does not make it any less true. Peter speaks plain words: “And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).

I'm sure you've heard this one before. No one is not saved merely by believing historical facts about Jesus—that he was born of the Virgin Mary, performed miracles, died, lived again, ascended to heaven, and will return. One could believe all those truths and not be saved. Saving faith is faith that Jesus died and was raised to save sinners, as Paul says when he summarizes the gospel: “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, [and] that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures” (1 Cor. 15:3–4). People must believe that Jesus died and rose to save them, as Paul told the Philippian jailer: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household” (Acts 16:31).

There is a third reason why people are saved: “The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost” (1 Tim. 1:15). People are saved, then, because they trust Christ, because the Holy Spirit enables them to believe, and because Jesus has loved them and given himself for them. All three are true, although they differ in ultimacy. Most ultimate is the work that Jesus did in the first century. That work establishes our faith; we are saved by believing in Christ’s saving work, as the Spirit enables us to believe.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation by obeying it, the experience of living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is the content of God's gift of saving us from having the experience of not living in obedience to it. So the reason why we are being saved is because we are having the experience of living in obedience to God's law.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of God's law, and in Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, so God's commandments are His instructions for how to trust in Christ as Lord and Savior. There are many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by believing in Jesus and many verses like Matthew 19:17 and Luke 10:25-28 that say that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, so again God's commandments are His instructions for how to believe in Jesus.

In Romans 10:5-10, our faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that God's law is not to difficult to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God rose him from the dead. Furthermore, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27)

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Jesus also set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he waked (1 John 2:6). In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through his ministry and through the cross (Acts 21:20).

God's law is His way (Psalms 119:1-3), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 32:46-47), and the way to know the Father (Exodus 33:13), and Jesus embodied God's law by living in sinless obedience to it, so he is the way, the truth, and the life, and the way to know the Father (John 14:6-7).

 

[Ozias]

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation by obeying it, the experience of living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is the content of God's gift of saving us from having the experience of not living in obedience to it. So the reason why we are being saved is because we are having the experience of living in obedience to God's law.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of God's law, and in Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, so God's commandments are His instructions for how to trust in Christ as Lord and Savior. There are many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by believing in Jesus and many verses like Matthew 19:17 and Luke 10:25-28 that say that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, so again God's commandments are His instructions for how to believe in Jesus.

In Romans 10:5-10, our faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that God's law is not to difficult to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God rose him from the dead. Furthermore, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27)

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Jesus also set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he waked (1 John 2:6). In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through his ministry and through the cross (Acts 21:20).

God's law is His way (Psalms 119:1-3), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 32:46-47), and the way to know the Father (Exodus 33:13), and Jesus embodied God's law by living in sinless obedience to it, so he is the way, the truth, and the life, and the way to know the Father (John 14:6-7).

I respect you and your views but I totally disagree. I'm absolutely for lordship salvation, but what you're describing sounds a lot like "works" salvation. I'm sure you don't see it that way and that's fine. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

So the reason why we are being saved is because we are having the experience of living in obedience to God's law.

I personally believe that I am saved, That I have eternal security. That nothing can snatch me out of his hand. That Jesus came to give me eternal life. That all happened at the cross, it's a done deal. My salvation isn't handed out to me a little bit at a time. Don't take this next statement wrong because as I mentioned I'm all for lordship salvation but as far as being saved by obedience to God's law I don't think so. Jesus came to fulfill the law. He was the only one that could keep the law. You can't keep the law, I can't keep the law. The law was given to show that we needed a savior. Salvation is a gift of God.

If you don't mind I would like to ask you a question about your beliefs. Are these your personal beliefs or do you belong to a Christian Church that teaches this? The reason I ask is I would like to study your opinions on salvation a little more in depth.

 

[Soyeong]

I respect you and your views but I totally disagree. I'm absolutely for lordship salvation, but what you're describing sounds a lot like "works" salvation. I'm sure you don't see it that way and that's fine. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

Then how would you define "works' salvation? I would define it as saying that we need to first do works in order to earn/produce/result in our salvation, and that is not what I am describing, which is why I don't consider my position to be works salvation.

I draw a distinction between they way to become saved and what we are becoming when we are becoming saved. The one and only way that there has ever been to become saved is through faith. When we becoming saved through faith, we are becoming someone who has been saved from the penalty of our sin (Ephesians 2:8), we are becoming someone who is being saved from continuing to live in sin (Philippians 2:12), and we are becoming someone who will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord (Romans 5:9-10).

Likewise, in Titus 2:11-14, it describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, and says that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing , so we do not need to do have first done those works in order to earn/produce/result in our salvation and we do not need to do those works because we have first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience doing those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from the experience of not doing those works. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so it describing both past and present aspects of our salvation. In the present, becoming someone who is living in obedience to God's law is what we are becoming when we are becoming someone who is being saved from continuing to live in sin, and the way that we become this is through faith.

I personally believe that I am saved, That I have eternal security. That nothing can snatch me out of his hand. That Jesus came to give me eternal life. That all happened at the cross, it's a done deal. My salvation isn't handed out to me a little bit at a time. Don't take this next statement wrong because as I mentioned I'm all for lordship salvation but as far as being saved by obedience to God's law I don't think so.

I think that if we first understand what exactly we are becoming when we are becoming saved, then it becomes a lot easier to see whether our salvation is something that we can lose, and in deed someone who repents and becomes someone who is being saved from living in transgression of God's law through faith can then turn away from that.

To use an analogy, there can be a building that has an unlimited supply of electricity and we can be like a device that is powered for eternity as long as we remain plugged into the outlet, and nothing from the outside can unplug us, but we can unplug ourselves. In other words, we are a branch that needs to remain connected to the vine in order to have eternal life. Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28).

Jesus came to fulfill the law. He was the only one that could keep the law. You can't keep the law, I can't keep the law. The law was given to show that we needed a savior. Salvation is a gift of God.

NAS Geek Lexicon: pleroo
"to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment"

After Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law, he then proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly obey it as it should be. According to Galatians 5:14, everyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the law entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done, and it is absurd to suggest that no one can love their neighbor. Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to keep His commandments, which are not burdensome, so to claim that we can't keep the law is to claim that no one has loved God, and that His commandments are too burdensome to obey. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult for us to obedience and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a choice and as a possibility, not as something that no one can keep.

God's law was given as a gift for our own good in order to teach us the means that our Savior saves us from living in transgression of it. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus.

If you don't mind I would like to ask you a question about your beliefs. Are these your personal beliefs or do you belong to a Christian Church that teaches this? The reason I ask is I would like to study your opinions on salvation a little more in depth.

These are more my beliefs about salvation through personal study discussion than specifically what I've heard being taught in my congregation, though I think that many in my congregation would agree with what I've said. I belong to an Orthodox synagogue that believes in Christ and I welcome questions about my beliefs.

 

[Wrangler]

in the fall human beings lost the ability to believe for salvation.

Although I never heard that, I did learn of the significance if Adam naming the woman Eve.

It is significant that Scripture points out that the man did not name the woman until AFTER the fall. What does the name suggest;
A. loss of the ability to believe for salvation?
B. Hope of salvation?

The name ‘Eve’ sounds like the word in the original language for ‘mother of many children.’

I submit that IF Adam had no hope in salvation, an expectation that God would have destroyed them both immediate (same day) of their rebellion, he would not have chosen that name.

I report. You decide.

 

[Wrangler]

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation by obeying it, the experience of living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is the content of God's gift of saving us from having the experience of not living in obedience to it. So the reason why we are being saved is because we are having the experience of living in obedience to God's law.

I think that is a bit too complicated. We are saved because we jettison our ego; proceed with the certain knowledge that we NEED a lord and a savior. God provides in his Anointed.

This is one of the reasons that I love John 1:18; Jesus, our deliverer is straight from the Father’s heart.

What is God’s heart? He does not want any to perish. Sadly, many are head strong; they say ‘I don’t need no man.’ <sigh>

I need the man Jesus to mediate for me. Et tu?

 

[Ozias]

Then how would you define "works' salvation? I would define it as saying that we need to first do works in order to earn/produce/result in our salvation, and that is not what I am describing, which is why I don't consider my position to be works salvation.

I draw a distinction between they way to become saved and what we are becoming when we are becoming saved. The one and only way that there has ever been to become saved is through faith. When we becoming saved through faith, we are becoming someone who has been saved from the penalty of our sin (Ephesians 2:8), we are becoming someone who is being saved from continuing to live in sin (Philippians 2:12), and we are becoming someone who will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord (Romans 5:9-10).

Likewise, in Titus 2:11-14, it describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, and says that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing , so we do not need to do have first done those works in order to earn/produce/result in our salvation and we do not need to do those works because we have first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience doing those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from the experience of not doing those works. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so it describing both past and present aspects of our salvation. In the present, becoming someone who is living in obedience to God's law is what we are becoming when we are becoming someone who is being saved from continuing to live in sin, and the way that we become this is through faith.


I think that if we first understand what exactly we are becoming when we are becoming saved, then it becomes a lot easier to see whether our salvation is something that we can lose, and in deed someone who repents and becomes someone who is being saved from living in transgression of God's law through faith can then turn away from that.

To use an analogy, there can be a building that has an unlimited supply of electricity and we can be like a device that is powered for eternity as long as we remain plugged into the outlet, and nothing from the outside can unplug us, but we can unplug ourselves. In other words, we are a branch that needs to remain connected to the vine in order to have eternal life. Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28).


NAS Geek Lexicon: pleroo
"to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment"

After Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law, he then proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly obey it as it should be. According to Galatians 5:14, everyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the law entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done, and it is absurd to suggest that no one can love their neighbor. Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to keep His commandments, which are not burdensome, so to claim that we can't keep the law is to claim that no one has loved God, and that His commandments are too burdensome to obey. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult for us to obedience and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a choice and as a possibility, not as something that no one can keep.

God's law was given as a gift for our own good in order to teach us the means that our Savior saves us from living in transgression of it. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus.


These are more my beliefs about salvation through personal study discussion than specifically what I've heard being taught in my congregation, though I think that many in my congregation would agree with what I've said. I belong to an Orthodox synagogue that believes in Christ and I welcome questions about my beliefs.

Thanks for taking the time and explaining that to me.

 

[Ozias]

Although I never heard that, I did learn of the significance if Adam naming the woman Eve.

It is significant that Scripture points out that the man did not name the woman until AFTER the fall. What does the name suggest;
A. loss of the ability to believe for salvation?
B. Hope of salvation?

The name ‘Eve’ sounds like the word in the original language for ‘mother of many children.’

I submit that IF Adam had no hope in salvation, an expectation that God would have destroyed them both immediate (same day) of their rebellion, he would not have chosen that name.

I report. You decide.

That's the first time I ever heard that Eve received her name after the fall, interesting. One thing's for sure after they disobeyed God and ate from the tree they did hide from God And they did cover themselves. Suggest to me that they knew they were on their own. On top of that things didn't go real smoothly once they were banished from the garden and had Cain and Abel. They actually lost two offspring in that deal. Plus they had to do with the curse that was on them. So I doubt very seriously they were looking ahead to the Cross as they had too many other things to worry about. Of course this is all hypothetical.

 

[Soyeong]

I think that is a bit too complicated. We are saved because we jettison our ego; proceed with the certain knowledge that we NEED a lord and a savior. God provides in his Anointed.

This is one of the reasons that I love John 1:18; Jesus, our deliverer is straight from the Father’s heart.

What is God’s heart? He does not want any to perish. Sadly, many are head strong; they say ‘I don’t need no man.’ <sigh>

I need the man Jesus to mediate for me. Et tu?

Salvation/justification/sanctification all have past/present/future aspects, so complicated or not, that is the way it is. There can be any number of goals for obeying God's law that has nothing to do with our own ego, such as faith and love. God is trustworthy, therefore what He has instructed is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by trusting in what He has instructed, it is contradictory for someone to think that we should trust in God, but not in what He has instructed, and trusting in what God has instructed does not leave room for our ego. Jesus is the embodiment of God's word expressed through setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to it, so saying that we need to trust him as Lord and Savior is the same as saying that we need to also embody God's word through trusting in his example.

 

[Wrangler]

Salvation/justification/sanctification all have past/present/future aspects, so complicated or not, that is the way it is.

Says you.

The notion that anything that has past/ present/ future aspects must be inherently complicated is a specious supposition.

 

[Wrangler]

One thing's for sure after they disobeyed God and ate from the tree they did hide from God And they did cover themselves.

My pastor recently did a sermon on how sin sickens your soul and twists your mind. The absurdity of being ashamed before your Creator for being naked - when he made you that way should be seen by all!

It was not their nakedness that was the cause of their shame; it was their rebellion.

 

[Ozias]

My pastor recently did a sermon on how sin sickens your soul and twists your mind. The absurdity of being ashamed before your Creator for being naked - when he made you that way should be seen by all!

It was not their nakedness that was the cause of their shame; it was their rebellion.

Along those same lines they didn't have the covering of the Lord any longer. So they were spiritually naked. That part about sickening your soul and twisting your mind is right on. Been there done that.

 

[Soyeong]

Says you.

The notion that anything that has past/ present/ future aspects must be inherently complicated is a specious supposition.

In Ephesians 2:8, it says we have been saved, in Philippians 2:12, it says to work out our salvation in fear and trembling, and in Romans 5:9-10, it says that we will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord.

In Hebrews 10:10, we have been sanctified, in Hebrews 10:14, we are being sanctified, and we will be sanctified in Philippians 1:6 when he who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 11 lists examples of justifying faith, so he was justified in Genesis 12 when he obeyed the call to to the land where he would receive his inheritance (Hebrews 11:8), he was justified in Genesis 15 when he believed God (Romans 4:1-5, James 2:23), and he was justified in Genesis 22 when he obeyed Gods command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17, James 2:21). So there are at least three different times when Abraham was justified.

 

[Wrangler]

In Ephesians 2:8, it says we have been saved,

This, you offer as evidence that anything that has past/ present/ future aspects must be inherently complicated?

 

[Soyeong]

This, you offer as evidence that anything that has past/ present/ future aspects must be inherently complicated?

That is my evidence that salvation, sanctification, and justification have past, present, and future aspects. I did not claim that anything that has past, present, and future aspects must be inherently complicated. You are the one who said that you think it is a bit too complicated and I showed that that is the reality of what the Bible presents regardless of whether or not you think it is too complicated.

 

[Wrangler]

You are the one who said that you think it is a bit too complicated

Not it - your explanation is complicated. Salvation is simple. It’s so simple, people can’t help themselves but complicate the hell (or heaven) out of it.

 

[Soyeong]

Not it - your explanation is complicated. Salvation is simple. It’s so simple, people can’t help themselves but complicate the hell (or heaven) out of it.

How is my explanation too complicated when I am using verses to speak about what the Bible presents?

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so living in obedience to it is intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it. For example, honoring our parents is the way that Jesus saves us from not honoring our parents. Is our salvation in the present simple enough for you?

 

[Wrangler]

Salvation/justification/sanctification all have past/present/future aspects, so complicated or not, that is the way it is.

How is my explanation too complicated when I am using verses to speak about what the Bible presents?

Circular. It is complicated, you claim. (NOTE: No Scripture says this.) Then you ask how it is too complicated AS IF your premise - your claim - has to be accepted unless proven otherwise.

Do you recall how Jesus got Nathaniel to be a disciple? ‘Follow me.’

Long theological dissertations are so unChrist like. Why do you do it?

 

[Soyeong]

Circular. It is complicated, you claim. (NOTE: No Scripture says this.) Then you ask how it is too complicated AS IF your premise - your claim - has to be accepted unless proven otherwise.

I did not claim that it was complicated. If the Bible is complicated, then me citing what it says is also complicated, but if it is not complicated, then me citing it is also not complicated, so I see no grounds for you claiming that the Bible is not complicated while me citing the Bible is a bit too complicated. The Bible is true and says what it says regardless of how complicated you think me citing what it says is.

Do you recall how Jesus got Nathaniel to be a disciple? ‘Follow me.’

Long theological dissertations are so unChrist like. Why do you do it?

Jesus did not just tell people to follow him, but rather we have many of the things that he taught recorded in the Gospels and not everything that he said is easy to understand.