Why is evil required in humanity

[praise_yeshua]

I've placed this thread in this forum because the answer to this question requires a mature systematic theological approach.

Over the years I have argued that there is only one single valid explanation for why evil exists and it is not "because of God's good pleasure".

The answer is "choice". A matter of the will of men.

Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

Which is repeating what was gifted to Adam in the garden. A choice. It is repeated over and over again throughout human history. It is repeated again by Joshua after the death of Moses. God sets before us a "choice". A choice to every generation.

The "choice itself" is morally neutral. There are good choices and there are bad choices.

In fact, I also make the secondary argument that man can not be in the image of God without the morally neutral ability to choose. Choice is a characteristic of Divinity. A characteristic that God treasures.

No systematic theological system can accurately deny a "choice" being given to men.

By all means... please try.

 

[Diserner]

Typical answers:

1. That makes you more inherently righteous than another sinner.

2. God foreknew the evil and created, therefore God is the ultimate decider.

Not a lot of Calvies posting, so there's some devil's advocate to work with.

 

[TedT]

2. God foreknew the evil and created, therefore God is the ultimate decider.

I like what you are doing here and have been castigated (severely ) by Calvinists for suggesting the same thing...

IF GOD does only that which HE wants to do and
IF as per 1 Timothy 2:4..who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth and
Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. Wouldn't I prefer that he turn from his ways and live?
HE doesn't want anyone to die in hell, HE would never create those HE knew would end in hell!!!

So what do I offer in its place? Acts 15:18 KJB Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. To be precise, HE knows all HIS works, usually accepted to be referring to all that HE was created by HIS creative decree, which implies that IF HE did not create something by HIS creative decree, HE does NOT KNOW IT.

Also, these things HE knows from, since, the beginning of the world, not BEFORE creation, not since eternity past. Therefore we have good Biblical reason to reject the pagan wisdom (Augustinian omniscience) the ancient Church idolized.

This biblical definition of what HE knows also implies that If HE did NOT create the results of our free will decisions but let us create those results by our free will according to what we most wanted, THEN HE did not know these results of our free will decisions UNTIL we created them for ourselves and brought them into reality.

Therefore NO ONE was created evil; not before Adam (Satan etc) nor after Adam (you, me) but all sinners were created with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose to become holy or eternally evil and then all sinners were sown into the world as per Matt 13:38-39.

 

[Diserner]

an equal ability and opportunity to choose to become holy

Part of holiness is not demanding God match our own innate sense of morality.

Our heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.

This is why a good protection from the Problem of Evil is to thoroughly know and understand that we are evil.

That way we don't trust our own opinions and motives.

 

[TedT]

Holiness is being totally and perfectly in accord with GOD. Like a perfectly harmonized vibration, if GOD suggests anything, you respond perfectly in vibrational harmony.

This response to GOD is created by our choice, our free will to be in accord with HIM, especially after experiencing the natural and legal results of NOT choosing to be in accord with HIM.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Look at how many times "You will know that I am the Lord" appears in the OT. Without evil, we would not know many of God's attributes. That's tidily summed up in, "22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"

 

[TedT]

Look at how many times "You will know that I am the Lord" appears in the OT. Without evil, we would not know many of God's attributes

ImCo....some thoughts

An offshoot of the premise: You cannot grasp His love unless you compare it to His wrath.

This is a very hard position to hold, for it fails on many accounts...

First, it fails to answer or give a reasonable basis for why HE chose the particular ones HE did to suffer HIS wrath or to bask in HIS love. In other words, it denies the faithful and unselfish character of GOD's love, in that it limits it without just cause and looks on it as somewhat capricious.

Secondly, it necessitates the unproven presupposition that it is impossible for GOD to perfect HIS creatures HIMSELF, that HE needs the presence of evil in order to bring HIS creation to its highest potential.

In other words we must accept, for example, that in GOD’S world one has to first be sick in order to be healthy, or sinful in order to be faultless and the more sinful (or sick) the better.

Third, it fails to satisfactorily answer the question of how the damnation of millions makes us more appreciative / perfect than would be the damnation of but one, since it is the moral depravity of those in hell that is supposed to make for the increased appreciation of the perfection of HIS glory and not the quantity of persons therein.

Fourthly, it puts put a very small value on the worth of the individual creature in the eyes of GOD.

I do know that HIS wrath is indeed a part of HIS glory but I have come to realize that the fact that the full story of GOD's interaction with man on this earth ends with a heavenly marriage implies that the heavenly marriage was HIS purpose for our creation. It is in the heavenly marriage of GOD and Creation that HIS GLORY shines forth the strongest and most perfect in relationship with us, NOT in HIS just wrath nor redemption which are merely aids to bring the marriage to fruition after to our moral stumbles.

HIS plan for all creation was the heavenly marriage.
HIS plan for each of us is the heavenly marriage.
Everything HE has ever done or will ever do conformed to this purpose, this plan, and He has never done anything that would slow this plan down or put it off or side track it in the least!

It implies that ALL of HIS being, all of HIS Sovereignty, all of HIS love, HIS righteousness and HIS nature as just have one perfect focus, to culminate HIS relationship with HIS creation in the heavenly marriage: one plan, one focus.

Therefore:
It implies that anyone/everyone ever created in HIS image, ie, able to be a proper Bride for HIM, was created perfectly capable and able to become HIS bride, not held back by any imperfection or lack of acceptance by HIM. No one was created as evil to show HIS glory by HIS wrath.
Isaiah 43:7, 21
7 "whom I created for my glory"
21 the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.

Ecc 7:29 Only this have I found: I have discovered that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.” Upright: S3477, yashar, straightforward, just, upright:... GOD created no one disgustingly corrupt, enslaved to sin and unable to be HIS Bride for any reason.

By their coming into being everyone must have been within HIS plan, not separated from HIM by anything until they decide by their informed free will to reject HIM and HIS plan. HE cannot marry an evil person so why would HE create by any means, any system at all, evil people? It is impossible.

 

[TedT]

I just realized I answered Why was evil necessary in HIS creation and not
Why is evil required in humanity...
I know evil was allowed because to accept GOD's marriage proposal we had to have a free will and that necessitates that we be able to reject HIM as GOD and as a proper husband for us and rebuke HIM as a liar and not a saviour from the sin of rejecting HIM, etc.

But why are the sinful sheep of HIS flock forced to live with the demonic reprobate here on earth? Why were Satan and his angels not sent to live on Mars for instance while the sinful elect could live on Venus? Why were both groups flung to the earth?

The answer my friends is found in the parable of the weeds, Matt 13, which explains why the judgement of the reprobate weeds has been postponed:
Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [a reference to the explanation of this parable, ie, no more metaphor, in verses 36-39]

So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ [to bring the judgement upon them?] 29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. The time of the harvest is the time of the maturity of the wheat and the only maturity that saves a sinner from the judgment is a mature holiness!

It is no great leap of faith to conclude that living with the reprobate must have an educative, rehabilitatory effect upon the sinful but good (ie, elect) seed to speed up their sanctification so they are not liable to be destroyed by the judgement day. As such the reprobate are often the strongest and harshest of HIS disciplines upon HIS sinful but legitimate children, Hebrews 12:5-11, designed to train us in righteousness. When the last sinful elect person is sanctified by this discipline and is fully righteous, then will come that great but terrible day of the LORD, the judgement against all evil.

In fact, we can speed up the coming of this day by choosing holiness:
2 Peter 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to conduct yourselves in holiness and godliness 12 as you anticipate and hasten, (speed up!) the coming of the day of God, when the heavens will be destroyed by fire and the elements will melt in the heat.

 

[Studyman]

I've placed this thread in this forum because the answer to this question requires a mature systematic theological approach.

Over the years I have argued that there is only one single valid explanation for why evil exists and it is not "because of God's good pleasure".

The answer is "choice". A matter of the will of men.

Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

Which is repeating what was gifted to Adam in the garden. A choice. It is repeated over and over again throughout human history. It is repeated again by Joshua after the death of Moses. God sets before us a "choice". A choice to every generation.

The "choice itself" is morally neutral. There are good choices and there are bad choices.

In fact, I also make the secondary argument that man can not be in the image of God without the morally neutral ability to choose. Choice is a characteristic of Divinity. A characteristic that God treasures.

No systematic theological system can accurately deny a "choice" being given to men.

By all means... please try.

Finally, something we can almost agree on. And it is shown in creation itself, in my view.

A baby is born with the created almost insatiable desire to walk. From its earliest life it tries to do so. First turning over, then getting on its knees, then crawling. It bumps its head, hurts itself, falls over and over again, cries and gets frustrated. But each time it gets up and continues to "Press toward the prize of the High calling of God, that was also in Christ Jesus, which even as an infant learned how to walk by the things HE suffered.

Once a child learns to walk, it starts making choices where it walks. This is the time to "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it".

But I, unlike Jesus, didn't make the right choices, even when I knew them. I think this is part of the reason why Jesus said to come to Him like a child. He knows I will fall in the process, hurt myself, get frustrated, but HE explains that "we are his workmanship", created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Paul too, was on this journey to be what the Christ of the Bible instructed.

Matt. 5: 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Therefore, as Paul teaches;

Phil. 3: 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God (Perfection) in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

I choose Life, over and over and over again.

Great thread, good topic.

 

[makesends]

I've placed this thread in this forum because the answer to this question requires a mature systematic theological approach.

Over the years I have argued that there is only one single valid explanation for why evil exists and it is not "because of God's good pleasure".

The answer is "choice". A matter of the will of men.

Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

Which is repeating what was gifted to Adam in the garden. A choice. It is repeated over and over again throughout human history. It is repeated again by Joshua after the death of Moses. God sets before us a "choice". A choice to every generation.

The "choice itself" is morally neutral. There are good choices and there are bad choices.

I think here, by "choice itself", you mean, 'choosing', no?

In fact, I also make the secondary argument that man can not be in the image of God without the morally neutral ability to choose. Choice is a characteristic of Divinity. A characteristic that God treasures.

Are you intimating here that Calvinism denies "the morally neutral ability to choose"?

No systematic theological system can accurately deny a "choice" being given to men.

Are you intimating here that Calvinism denies a 'choice' being given to men?

By all means... please try.

Not to argue, for the moment, about what "morally neutral" means, except to say that it does not mean, "uncaused", but there is Scriptural and logical reason to believe that being made in the image of God implies that apart from God we can do nothing.

 

[TedT]

The answer is "choice". A matter of the will of men.

Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

Which is repeating what was gifted to Adam in the garden. A choice. It is repeated over and over again throughout human history. It is repeated again by Joshua after the death of Moses. God sets before us a "choice". A choice to every generation.

Amen!

 

[praise_yeshua]

I think here, by "choice itself", you mean, 'choosing', no?

Are you intimating here that Calvinism denies "the morally neutral ability to choose"?

Are you intimating here that Calvinism denies a 'choice' being given to men?

I didn't mention Calvinism in my OP. However, the answer is generally. No.

However, I reject the fact the notion that Calvinism actually presents a choice. It is my position that a predetermined "choice" is really not a choice. It is similar to stick a human beings head under water and saying " take a breath or not". While some people might consider that a "choice"..... Either choice will result in death. This isn't a morally neutral choice.

Not to argue, for the moment, about what "morally neutral" means, except to say that it does not mean, "uncaused", but there is Scriptural and logical reason to believe that being made in the image of God implies that apart from God we can do nothing.

We are a stubborn sort. (Human beings). God requires action. Action is involved in making a choice. Inaction brings death. "Condemned already".

I'm feeling better today. I hope to start dealing with some of your comments. Thank you for challenging my perspective.

 

[Frank Russell]

I've placed this thread in this forum because the answer to this question requires a mature systematic theological approach.

Over the years I have argued that there is only one single valid explanation for why evil exists and it is not "because of God's good pleasure".

The answer is "choice". A matter of the will of men.

Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

Which is repeating what was gifted to Adam in the garden. A choice. It is repeated over and over again throughout human history. It is repeated again by Joshua after the death of Moses. God sets before us a "choice". A choice to every generation.

The "choice itself" is morally neutral. There are good choices and there are bad choices.

In fact, I also make the secondary argument that man can not be in the image of God without the morally neutral ability to choose. Choice is a characteristic of Divinity. A characteristic that God treasures.

No systematic theological system can accurately deny a "choice" being given to men.

By all means... please try.

The first answer is because the first humans consumed a spiritual fruit that placed the knowing of good and evil within us.

All humans were born from them, so all humans have a knowledge of good and evil within them, and make choices based on what seems beneficial to their situation.

Evil is required by humanity in this approach, because everyone wants different things, and there aren't enough things to go around. So people scheme, and murder, and do whatever it takes to get what they want.

Evil is required by humanity, because it cannot "unlearn" the knowing of good and evil.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Not to argue, for the moment, about what "morally neutral" means, except to say that it does not mean, "uncaused", but there is Scriptural and logical reason to believe that being made in the image of God implies that apart from God we can do nothing.

A morally neutral decision would be like choosing which shoes to put on. However, if you're a man and choose to put on red stilettoes, that's probably a morally bad choice.

 

[makesends]

A morally neutral decision would be like choosing which shoes to put on. However, if you're a man and choose to put on red stilettoes, that's probably a morally bad choice.

Haha!

Yeah, I get the theoretical notion, but I don't think anything we do can be morally neutral. We do it with Christ, or without Christ; there is nowhere between the two.

And there's a whole lot more to this, and even a way to bring it around to show its relevance to the OP, but that would take too long.

 

[makesends]

Haha!

Yeah, I get the theoretical notion, but I don't think anything we do can be morally neutral. We do it with Christ, or without Christ; there is nowhere between the two.

And there's a whole lot more to this, and even a way to bring it around to show its relevance to the OP, but that would take too long.