When You See JERUSALEM Surrounded By Armies, Luke 21

The Roman Empire continued on until 1453, when the Turks took Constantinople. That Empire was richer and stronger than the Eastern part of the Roman Empire when the Eastern part ended. Actually, the 70 weeks speaks to the end of Israel, and if you consider God to be direct, the 70 weeks prophecy has not ended yet. The Prince entering the city at the end of the 69th week is Jesus the Messiah. This Messiah Jesus is cut off after the 69th week. If we take that as 33 AD, how does one more week get us to 70 AD? It doesn't. Not even close. HOWEVER, the prophecy states that God has decreed 70 weeks for his people (Daniel's people, the Jews/Israel) and the holy city (Jerusalem). God did not say they are contiguous. Based on what we know of history, the first 69 weeks were. They are even named as the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks. Someone did the math and the last day of the prophecy ended on the day of Jesus' triumphal entry. So God is very accurate in His prophecies. (You would hope so, because it is His name, and His perfection on the line.) Why does the prophecy stop at 69 weeks and say that the Prince arrives at the end of the 69 weeks, and then the Messiah is cut off AFTER 69 weeks. Why not at the start of the 70th week? I mean, if the weeks were contiguous, it should be at the start of the 70th week right? By about 7 days give or take. But it doesn't say that. It does give an introduction to the 70th week, but it isn't the cutting off of the Messiah. It is when the prince who is to come makes a covenant with the many for the week, and then, like in the other prophecy in Daniel about the abomination of desolation, he violates the covenant, puts an end to the sacrifices, and commits the abomination of desolation. (The other prophecy is clear as to why, a few centuries before Jesus was born, the sacrifices were stopped prior to the abomination of desolation at that time where a pig was sacrificed on the altar in the holy of holies. It is a multi-fulfillment prophecy.

You can't resurrect Jerusalem and Israel, but God did in 1948. Against all odds. Prophecy fulfilled. Ezekiel's dry bones back to life. Israel no longer a wilderness, but sprung back to life with the return of the Jews to their rightful place. Even Mark Twain, who visited before 1948 said that the place was a vast wilderness. The point you miss about the upcoming judgment, it finishes the 70 weeks for Israel, with all the results decreed at the beginning, and it ends God's judgment of the whole world. It is centralized on Israel and Jerusalem, but Jesus says the great tribulation to come is extensive, that is to say great. And He compares it not to the history of Israel, but the history of the whole world from the creation to the end of time. The time of Jacob's trouble is only compared to Israel's history, from its founding until its end. So the great tribulation of matthew 24 is worldwide, but it will be worst in Israel, where the Antichrist will set himself up to be God. Israel has not yet been saved. Israel has not yet accepted their Messiah. God is not done with Israel.
Ditto with you and @civic

With the exception that CHRIST was "cut-off" in the 70th week = NOT the 69th

"AFTER the 69th week MESSIAH will be cut-off"
 
You may have heard the city and sanctuary were destroyed and many surrounding areas apparently devastated.
The 70 weeks have to be contiguous or they become meaningless. It is all the more important because this is their time to repent before the city and sanctuary are destroyed. We even see that those who reject Christ after knowing him would not have a second way to be reconciled. Hebrews 10:26-27 shows that the rejection of Christ only led to "a fearful expectation of judgment,"
You can read the series of papers as an argument of the seventy sevens.
#Daniel Part 1
#Daniel Part 2
#Daniel Parts 3 and 4
Part of what is noted here is that Jesus came in the seventieth week and all that was necessary was accomplished within that week. I would note that the accomplishment of those tasks left nothing to be done afterwards in a time 2000 years later. There are no prophecies to say this will happen again.
Finally, after 20 years, he has an ebook published
Murray McLellan, A Prophecy of the Christ: Gabriel's Prophecy of the 70 Weeks in Daniel 9:24-27
Amazon is blocking me from paying 99 cents to get it.
 
Finally, after 20 years, he has an ebook published
Murray McLellan, A Prophecy of the Christ: Gabriel's Prophecy of the 70 Weeks in Daniel 9:24-27
Amazon is blocking me from paying 99 cents to get it.
Ok. I was able to purchase it. After adding a new credit card it reported errors. Somewhere in there the purchase was completed. But the book is totally worth the 99cents. Actually, it is good that he shares the information in a way that might last longer.
 
Okay. For sake of argument, it is okay to say the 4 empires (perhaps as the one statue) lingered on for 1400 years more.

You may have heard the city and sanctuary were destroyed and many surrounding areas apparently devastated.
The 70 weeks have to be contiguous or they become meaningless.
So how do you deal with what is now a lie. If Jesus died after 69 weeks (which the prophecy is clear about), then how do we somehow have 7 years (the 1 last week) becoming 35 years? God doesn't make mistakes. Either there is a break, or God somehow screwed up, right? I mean, that last week has to be seven years. God has never given a prophecy where a given set time frame mysteriosly changes. Why not? He's God, therefore His prophecies will always be fulfilled as given. The 70 weeks are not contiguous and they don't have to be. Just as a football game that is supposed to be one hour long only, goes on for three hours. Actual gameplay, if one does the math, is one hour. The same goes with this prophecy. When all is said and done, Israel time will be 70 weeks, even if it is spread over thousands of years. The gap occurs at the end of the 69th week. It doesn't say the Messiah dies during the 70th week, or during a week. It says after the 69th week. Why? The 70th week had not started. Israel had rejected the Messiah, so now Gentile time had started in regards to the gospel, and Jesus' death. A commercial break of sorts. The 70th week has a definitive starting point. He strengthens a covenant with the many for a week. There is the start of the 70th week.
It is all the more important because this is their time to repent before the city and sanctuary are destroyed. We even see that those who reject Christ after knowing him would not have a second way to be reconciled. Hebrews 10:26-27 shows that the rejection of Christ only led to "a fearful expectation of judgment,"
You can read the series of papers as an argument of the seventy sevens.
#Daniel Part 1
#Daniel Part 2
#Daniel Parts 3 and 4
I found the early church fathers, who very much believed in a gap, to be much more persuasive. I mean they basically said it was obvious.
Part of what is noted here is that Jesus came in the seventieth week and all that was necessary was accomplished within that week. I would note that the accomplishment of those tasks left nothing to be done afterwards in a time 2000 years later. There are no prophecies to say this will happen again.
Jesus did not come in the seventieth week. He came at the end of the 69th, when the Messiah is revealed. That is the triumphal entry. He dies after the 69th week, about a week after the triumphal entry, which is when it says the Messiah is cut off.
When stating that nothing was like it before or ever would be as bad in the future appears as a Jewish idiom. This is explained by Steve Gregg when sharing on Joel. That is so much worse to reverse usage of Luke 21 to Jews and Matt 24 to the world when it logically would have been the other way around, since Matthew is written initially for a Jewish audience.
That is why it means something. Matthew didn't use the Jewish idiom. He spoke of the history of the world, where Joel speaks specifically of the history of Israel. Why? It is localized to Israel, so it isn't worth speaking to the history of the world, because it doesn't matter. The great tribulation Jesus speaks of is localized to... the world, hence speaking in terms of world history means something.
I can only suggest it right now. But Romans 9-11 presents Paul's personal search for the way God was faithful to his promises to Israel. The only way is through the narrowing of application to those of the promise (Rom 9:6ff). This was the remnant of Rom 9:27-29 (Isa 10:20-22) through whom Israel was preserved or gathered. Romans 10 shows that the gospel was shared to them so they would have a chance to respond. So, Romans 11 argues to the gentiles that Jews should have preference. The Jewish response was vital to Paul because they were the Israel that was saved, as per Rom 11:25-27. No Israel existed after that nor is there prophecy saying the broad Israel would be unjudged for 2000 years. How could anything continue apart from Christ?
I think you are allowing your beliefs to walk all over the Bible.
 
Ditto with you and @civic

With the exception that CHRIST was "cut-off" in the 70th week = NOT the 69th

"AFTER the 69th week MESSIAH will be cut-off"
There is a reason why it says after the 69th week. It wasn't yet the 70th, so the only way to define it was as after the 69th week. I didn't say He was cut off in the 70th week that I recall. I have been saying that He was revealed as Messiah at the end of the 69th week (the triumphal entry), and crucified after the 69th week. What we have is a record of 35+ years of events as happening after the 69th week. A week in this prophecy is ALWAYS seven years. God didn't screw up, and God doesn't screw up. So you have to explain how one week went from meaning seven years to meaning 35+ years. Where did God make a mistake?
 
So how do you deal with what is now a lie. If Jesus died after 69 weeks (which the prophecy is clear about), then how do we somehow have 7 years (the 1 last week) becoming 35 years? God doesn't make mistakes. Either there is a break, or God somehow screwed up, right? I mean, that last week has to be seven years. God has never given a prophecy where a given set time frame mysteriosly changes. Why not? He's God, therefore His prophecies will always be fulfilled as given. The 70 weeks are not contiguous and they don't have to be. Just as a football game that is supposed to be one hour long only, goes on for three hours. Actual gameplay, if one does the math, is one hour. The same goes with this prophecy. When all is said and done, Israel time will be 70 weeks, even if it is spread over thousands of years. The gap occurs at the end of the 69th week. It doesn't say the Messiah dies during the 70th week, or during a week. It says after the 69th week. Why? The 70th week had not started. Israel had rejected the Messiah, so now Gentile time had started in regards to the gospel, and Jesus' death. A commercial break of sorts. The 70th week has a definitive starting point. He strengthens a covenant with the many for a week. There is the start of the 70th week.

I found the early church fathers, who very much believed in a gap, to be much more persuasive. I mean they basically said it was obvious.

Jesus did not come in the seventieth week. He came at the end of the 69th, when the Messiah is revealed. That is the triumphal entry. He dies after the 69th week, about a week after the triumphal entry, which is when it says the Messiah is cut off.

That is why it means something. Matthew didn't use the Jewish idiom. He spoke of the history of the world, where Joel speaks specifically of the history of Israel. Why? It is localized to Israel, so it isn't worth speaking to the history of the world, because it doesn't matter. The great tribulation Jesus speaks of is localized to... the world, hence speaking in terms of world history means something.

I think you are allowing your beliefs to walk all over the Bible.
Here it is in the book of Jeremiah:
Jeremiah 25:11-16 (NKJV) 11 ‘And this whole land shall be a desolation [and] an astonishment, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. 12 ‘Then it will come to pass, when seventy years are completed, [that] I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity,’ says the LORD; ‘and I will make it a perpetual desolation. 13 ‘So I will bring on that land all My words which I have pronounced against it, all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah has prophesied concerning all the nations. 14 ‘(For many nations and great kings shall be served by them also; and I will repay them according to their deeds and according to the works of their own hands.)’ ” 15 For thus says the LORD God of Israel to me: “Take this wine cup of fury from My hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send you, to drink it. 16 “And they will drink and stagger and go mad because of the sword that I will send among them.”

s e l a h
 
There is a reason why it says after the 69th week. It wasn't yet the 70th, so the only way to define it was as after the 69th week. I didn't say He was cut off in the 70th week that I recall. I have been saying that He was revealed as Messiah at the end of the 69th week (the triumphal entry), and crucified after the 69th week. What we have is a record of 35+ years of events as happening after the 69th week. A week in this prophecy is ALWAYS seven years. God didn't screw up, and God doesn't screw up. So you have to explain how one week went from meaning seven years to meaning 35+ years. Where did God make a mistake?
I posted the papers that explain the 70th week. Maybe it was the other thread. Nothing was left undone.
One significant point he makes in the paper is like this -- If I say I will visit you next week, that could be any day between Sunday and Saturday. I get it. People do not always want to read content of a link, even if the best argument is there.

I'm not sure where the 35 years comes in. The required steps of the 70 weeks were completed, even to Jesus dying around the 3.5 years after his ministry started. Murray explains that pretty well based on my memory and skimming through the documents recently.
 
So how do you deal with what is now a lie. If Jesus died after 69 weeks (which the prophecy is clear about), then how do we somehow have 7 years (the 1 last week) becoming 35 years? God doesn't make mistakes. Either there is a break, or God somehow screwed up, right? I mean, that last week has to be seven years. God has never given a prophecy where a given set time frame mysteriosly changes. Why not? He's God, therefore His prophecies will always be fulfilled as given. The 70 weeks are not contiguous and they don't have to be. Just as a football game that is supposed to be one hour long only, goes on for three hours. Actual gameplay, if one does the math, is one hour. The same goes with this prophecy. When all is said and done, Israel time will be 70 weeks, even if it is spread over thousands of years. The gap occurs at the end of the 69th week. It doesn't say the Messiah dies during the 70th week, or during a week. It says after the 69th week. Why? The 70th week had not started. Israel had rejected the Messiah, so now Gentile time had started in regards to the gospel, and Jesus' death. A commercial break of sorts. The 70th week has a definitive starting point. He strengthens a covenant with the many for a week. There is the start of the 70th week.

I found the early church fathers, who very much believed in a gap, to be much more persuasive. I mean they basically said it was obvious.

Jesus did not come in the seventieth week. He came at the end of the 69th, when the Messiah is revealed. That is the triumphal entry. He dies after the 69th week, about a week after the triumphal entry, which is when it says the Messiah is cut off.

That is why it means something. Matthew didn't use the Jewish idiom. He spoke of the history of the world, where Joel speaks specifically of the history of Israel. Why? It is localized to Israel, so it isn't worth speaking to the history of the world, because it doesn't matter. The great tribulation Jesus speaks of is localized to... the world, hence speaking in terms of world history means something.

I think you are allowing your beliefs to walk all over the Bible.
Per your request, I can try to stop getting my beliefs from the Bible so I can follow something from the 1800s.
 
There is a reason why it says after the 69th week. It wasn't yet the 70th, so the only way to define it was as after the 69th week. I didn't say He was cut off in the 70th week that I recall. I have been saying that He was revealed as Messiah at the end of the 69th week (the triumphal entry), and crucified after the 69th week. What we have is a record of 35+ years of events as happening after the 69th week. A week in this prophecy is ALWAYS seven years. God didn't screw up, and God doesn't screw up. So you have to explain how one week went from meaning seven years to meaning 35+ years. Where did God make a mistake?
There is a reason why it says after the 69th week. It wasn't yet the 70th, so the only way to define it was as after the 69th week

  1. after /ăf′tər/

    preposition​

    1. Behind in place or order.
      "Z comes after Y in the alphabet."
    2. Next to or lower than in order or importance.
 
It ended, however it will revive. I can't help but get the feeling that it may be the US. (Since we have the same political system the Roman Empire had. We are a Republic. I believe the only other Republic in world history.) Just a pet theory, nothing more.
Once you get away from the scriptural context, you can make the text meaning anything -- including a reference to Russia or the US or Tartaria. Anyhow McLellan shares enough to convince me that the seventy weeks era happened sufficiently intact within the first century. I do not think anyone has an argument better than his.
 
Here it is in the book of Jeremiah:
Jeremiah 25:11-16 (NKJV) 11 ‘And this whole land shall be a desolation [and] an astonishment, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. 12 ‘Then it will come to pass, when seventy years are completed, [that] I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity,’ says the LORD; ‘and I will make it a perpetual desolation. 13 ‘So I will bring on that land all My words which I have pronounced against it, all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah has prophesied concerning all the nations. 14 ‘(For many nations and great kings shall be served by them also; and I will repay them according to their deeds and according to the works of their own hands.)’ ” 15 For thus says the LORD God of Israel to me: “Take this wine cup of fury from My hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send you, to drink it. 16 “And they will drink and stagger and go mad because of the sword that I will send among them.”

s e l a h
Actually the book of Jeremiah here is what Danile read that had him praying to God to remember Israel. He knew the 70th year was practically there, so he was on his knees. God was saying that there is 70 weeks decreed for his people beyond what has happened. He then says when it will start, and gives mile markers.
 
Once you get away from the scriptural context, you can make the text meaning anything -- including a reference to Russia or the US or Tartaria. Anyhow McLellan shares enough to convince me that the seventy weeks era happened sufficiently intact within the first century. I do not think anyone has an argument better than his.
So please explain how to handle the 35 years that are, as God set the definition, supposed to actually be seven years.
 
So please explain how to handle the 35 years that are, as God set the definition, supposed to actually be seven years.
Maybe you can explain what you mean by 35 years.

But actually, the problem is that Israel came to its final end in the first century. That is what I find in Daniel. Matt 24 explains the combinations of prophets with some additional details by Jesus. Paul shows the completion of promises about Israel in Romans 9- 11. So I have no reason to see the present country of Israelis as anything pertinent to prophecy.
 
Last edited:
Maybe you can explain what you mean by 35 years.

But actually, the problem is that Israel came to its final end in the first century. That is what I find in Daniel. Matt 24 explains the combinations of prophets with some additional details by Jesus. Paul shows the completion of promises about Israel in Romans 9- 11. So I have no reason to see the present country of Israelis as anything pertinent to prophecy.
Except Israel was resurrected in one day in 1948. And Luke pronounced this diaspora in Luke 21. There are prophecies in the Old testament that speak to this. So it is pertinent to prophecy. What would make it even crazier is if they rebuild the temple. That would flip prophecy on its head. Consider that everyone expects Trump to strengthen the Abrahamic accords by adding more countries. There is a lot of consideration. As far as Paul writing about Israel, there is still the part that ends with "and all Israel will be saved", that comes after the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.
 
Except Israel was resurrected in one day in 1948. And Luke pronounced this diaspora in Luke 21. There are prophecies in the Old testament that speak to this. So it is pertinent to prophecy. What would make it even crazier is if they rebuild the temple. That would flip prophecy on its head. Consider that everyone expects Trump to strengthen the Abrahamic accords by adding more countries. There is a lot of consideration. As far as Paul writing about Israel, there is still the part that ends with "and all Israel will be saved", that comes after the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.
"and all Israel will be saved",
JESUS said when this will occur.

Do you know where? and if you could post it
 
I always just go with Zechariah and Revelation. Potent pair. Add a pinch of almost all the rest of the prophets in the Old Testament, as well as what Jesus said.
AGREE

Here is where JESUS told us the 'When' = Matthew 23:37-39 which is Zechariah 14:1-5 and 1st &2nd Thessalonians
 
Except Israel was resurrected in one day in 1948. And Luke pronounced this diaspora in Luke 21. There are prophecies in the Old testament that speak to this. So it is pertinent to prophecy. What would make it even crazier is if they rebuild the temple. That would flip prophecy on its head. Consider that everyone expects Trump to strengthen the Abrahamic accords by adding more countries. There is a lot of consideration. As far as Paul writing about Israel, there is still the part that ends with "and all Israel will be saved", that comes after the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.
I wish I had Rom 9-11 written out in more detail. The purpose of that was to show God's faithfulness to his promises. This was by showing that the real Israel was narrowed down to those of the promise, as we see in Rom 9:6-13. Then vv14-26 stave off some rhetorical opposition to God's reduction of those who benefit. In vv 27-29, Paul shows that only the remnant were to remain, as found in Isa 10:20-22; it mattered no more whether a diaspora of those without the promise existed. Rom 10 demonstrates further that God had not excluded Jews from hearing the gospel; he sent out people to preach among them, but most did not receive the report.
In Rom 11:1-2, Paul even argues against the idea that all Jews lost their chance to be justified. He reminded the reader he is a Jew and the audience was willing to hear his letter. The chapter continues with the realization the argument that though God gave them eyes not to see (in the broad numbers), their failure to come was the opportunity for gentiles to respond so that jealousy would be an added factor (as per Rom 10:19 and 11:14). Verse 14 shows he hoped at least some would respond in sufficient time. It was only natural that Jews should be grafted back in (vv 17-24).
This argument completes by saying that these events and interactions indeed led to all Israel being saved (vv 25-27). This was how Paul finalized the argument to show, against the sad apparent state of the people, that God has fulfilled his promises and thus is proven to have been faithful.
 
Back
Top Bottom