When You See JERUSALEM Surrounded By Armies, Luke 21

[Red Baker]

@Tothalordbeallglory

Notice it says THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM is NIGH .

Tom, there's not one word in the NT, concerning 70 A.D. it is read into the scriptures. If I had never heard of the false teaching of 70 A.D. theory, then I would never would ever know it from the scriptures, never. The only source of that information would have come from history, and history is written by victors, and is always twisted and perverted in their favor.

Folks go with sound bites instead of seeking biblical truth FROM THE SCRIPTURES ONLY. The scriptures will interpret themselves if we labor to allow them to do so. The Olivet Discourse found in Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21, and enlarged upon in 2nd Thessalonians 2; and Revelation, with Daniel supply many connecting link to the same subject, none of which addresses 70 A.D. theory (Daniel 7-12). In those chapters no one can faithfully teach a 70 A.D. lie unless you go there trying to see it and then force that lie into the scriptures.

NO WHERE in the churches epistles is there a word concerning 70 A.D, and it must be force into them. 70 A.D. theory is one of the great deception the churches from early on have fallen for and still are falling for that lie.

Later.

 

[JLB]

If I understand you correctly, any time that anyone has recognized the fulfillment of scripture then you will call it an overthrowing of the faith despite the 2000 year interval since those verses were written. That is quite incredible that Paul's point is taken as applicable forever.
One thing to notice if discussing these verses seriously is that this first resurrection could possibly happen without Christians observing obvious signs of it. Otherwise, no one would have fallen for their claims. I then have to question your basis for applying this scripture without recognition of a specific context -- like time written and situation at hand.
Additionally, since their claim could have convinced people that it happened despite seeing empty graves, have you considered it may not be something visible for you to have noticed it?

Can you answer my question?

 

[JLB]

You neglect the poetic sense of Zephaniah. Really you should check out the link to Steve Gregg's sharing on Zephaniah since he started out from your perspective (as superficially discerned by me) and saw too many links to the gospels (or the gospels to Zephaniah) that make it unlikely to also apply Zephaniah to a yet-future meaning. He notes further that Zephaniah 14 is very difficult to understand. It is not conducive to a shallow reading.

As to the billions concept, I may concede something to you. There are not billions but maybe you can explain why Jerusalem would have to be attacked again and why only a small portion are survivors who attack Jerusalem. Are these local nations involved? And are you denying that prophecy can be challenging, especially when overly focused on a literal interpretation?

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Zechariah 14:1-4


Question:

Did Jesus fight against the Roman army during 70AD?

Is the mount of Olives still there or is there a valley there today?


Do you believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ has already taken place?


Answer these questions please.

 

[mikesw]

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Zechariah 14:1-4


Question:

Did Jesus fight against the Roman army during 70AD?

The turnaround point indeed was AD70. God promised to avenge those nations who fought against the Jews, even though God spoke of the judgment of Jews and the way he would have nations as part of the army in this judgment.

Is the mount of Olives still there or is there a valley there today?

Maybe you noticed that the Lord was no longer inside the city to defend it, which is a critical aspect of the poetic description here. It was more descriptive of describing easier escape of the followers of Christ to leave Jerusalem -- of converting an exit across a steep and difficult mountain range into an easier escape to match with Jesus's warning to escape the city.

Do you believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ has already taken place?


Answer these questions please.

I am surprised that you are expecting to see angelic figures as the resurrected believers amongst us. It would be incongruous for Jesus to say this was happening soon when it did not happen soon (John 5:25-29). So indeed I think the first resurrection happened at the only possible point of fulfillment. The last resurrection has no specific timeline but obviously is still in the future.

Anyhow, check out Steve Gregg -- maybe just the Zeph 14:1-5 or even the second video to cover the rest of the chapter. He is pretty fair in his teaching. But you would not be forced to accept what he says. It is not so productive to ask me the questions when the explanation of the passage is much clearer due to his teaching style. Or pray that my teaching ability rises to a higher level in communication style.

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

@Tothalordbeallglory

Tom, there's not one word in the NT, concerning 70 A.D. it is read into the scriptures. If I had never heard of the false teaching of 70 A.D. theory, then I would never would ever know it from the scriptures, never. The only source of that information would have come from history, and history is written by victors, and is always twisted and perverted in their favor.

Folks go with sound bites instead of seeking biblical truth FROM THE SCRIPTURES ONLY. The scriptures will interpret themselves if we labor to allow them to do so. The Olivet Discourse found in Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21, and enlarged upon in 2nd Thessalonians 2; and Revelation, with Daniel supply many connecting link to the same subject, none of which addresses 70 A.D. theory (Daniel 7-12). In those chapters no one can faithfully teach a 70 A.D. lie unless you go there trying to see it and then force that lie into the scriptures.

NO WHERE in the churches epistles is there a word concerning 70 A.D, and it must be force into them. 70 A.D. theory is one of the great deception the churches from early on have fallen for and still are falling for that lie.

Later.

Believe me i am in no way a preterist .

 

[JLB]

The turnaround point indeed was AD70. God promised to avenge those nations who fought against the Jews, even though God spoke of the judgment of Jews and the way he would have nations as part of the army in this judgment.

Maybe you noticed that the Lord was no longer inside the city to defend it, which is a critical aspect of the poetic description here. It was more descriptive of describing easier escape of the followers of Christ to leave Jerusalem -- of converting an exit across a steep and difficult mountain range into an easier escape to match with Jesus's warning to escape the city.


I am surprised that you are expecting to see angelic figures as the resurrected believers amongst us. It would be incongruous for Jesus to say this was happening soon when it did not happen soon (John 5:25-29). So indeed I think the first resurrection happened at the only possible point of fulfillment. The last resurrection has no specific timeline but obviously is still in the future.

Anyhow, check out Steve Gregg -- maybe just the Zeph 14:1-5 or even the second video to cover the rest of the chapter. He is pretty fair in his teaching. But you would not be forced to accept what he says. It is not so productive to ask me the questions when the explanation of the passage is much clearer due to his teaching style. Or pray that my teaching ability rises to a higher level in communication style.

Let me know when you are able to answer my questions.

 

[mikesw]

Let me know when you are able to answer my questions.

Is that the same type of deadlock Jesus ran into when sharing insight with the disciples?

It is like when the disciples asked Jesus "show us the Father." They were asking something that they should have known by that moment in time. I'm not trying to draw too many equivalents here, just a minor similarity of a situation.
I have answered the question for anyone else who is fine to read what I said. You can drop out or you can listen to Steve Gregg and take the discussion forward from there.

 

[mikesw]

@Tothalordbeallglory

Tom, there's not one word in the NT, concerning 70 A.D. it is read into the scriptures. If I had never heard of the false teaching of 70 A.D. theory, then I would never would ever know it from the scriptures, never. The only source of that information would have come from history, and history is written by victors, and is always twisted and perverted in their favor.

Folks go with sound bites instead of seeking biblical truth FROM THE SCRIPTURES ONLY. The scriptures will interpret themselves if we labor to allow them to do so. The Olivet Discourse found in Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21, and enlarged upon in 2nd Thessalonians 2; and Revelation, with Daniel supply many connecting link to the same subject, none of which addresses 70 A.D. theory (Daniel 7-12). In those chapters no one can faithfully teach a 70 A.D. lie unless you go there trying to see it and then force that lie into the scriptures.

NO WHERE in the churches epistles is there a word concerning 70 A.D, and it must be force into them. 70 A.D. theory is one of the great deception the churches from early on have fallen for and still are falling for that lie.

Later.

That is totally amazing to miss the whole account of the story of Israel that is central to the Old Testament. It is like reading a murder mystery story and not realizing that a death occurred.

How could the judgment of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple happen in such a devastating fashion without warning to Jews and without letting the followers of Christ find safety instead of being caught in its destruction?

Maybe to get a sense of balance here you might consider that the scriptures were written before AD70 and thus were not mentioning the completion of that judgment. At the minimal then, people either recognize some double fulfillment or a transition in Matthew from the judgment in AD70 to a yet-future completion.

But some stuff you are expecting may parallel what we can glean from scripture. The difference is that God's intervention is described differently than you expect -- assuming a generally common interpretation found among Christians.

 

[mikesw]

Sorry for some confusion. I get the name Zephaniah mixed with Zechariah. So Zechariah is what I (mostly or always?) meant in this discussion. It is the one that goes to chapter 14
Here is the video version of the audio recording.

I have many differences from Steve Gregg's view but he is one I often check on the OT when commentaries do not seem to fit the actual situation -- or they apply the passage in a weird way. He had been studying and teaching scripture since he was 16. I think he has had an advantage of reading and sharing scripture without the burden of satisfying a specific denomination doctrine or a professor's schedule. Hopefully I'm not improperly idealizing his past.

 

[Marvelloustime]

be faithful unto to death and ye shall receive a crown of life . Tribulations are increasing and have been
AND the western socities WILL FACE IT TOO .
It peaks IN THIS HOUR . fear not man , fear not what he can do , fear not to lose all even your own life .

@Tothalordbeallglory
“Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2‬:‭10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[civic]

Zechariah 14 is certainly not about the events of 70 AD.


Roman soldiers destroyed the city and sanctuary.

The Roman army and General Titus returned to Rome with a hero’s welcome.


Zechariah 14 is about the Day of the Lord, when Jesus Christ returns and establishes His reign in Jerusalem.


Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Zechariah 14:1-4


The Mount of Olives is still there, as it hasn’t been slit into making a large valley.


Here is what happens to the many of the army that fought against Jerusalem.

And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
Zechariah 14:12


This certainty didn’t happen in 70AD.



And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. Zechariah 14:16-17


Jesus will literally dwell in Jerusalem and be King over the whole earth.


The nations will come to worship Him year after year.


Do the nations come to Jerusalem year after year to worship Jesus Christ?


This prophecy is yet to come.


This is what will happen at the Second Coming of Christ.






.

Ditto

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

Ditto

To the trenches my friend . unleash and release a moutain of biblical doctrine upon this place .

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

soon the all inclusive generation of the diverse and strange love god
shall unleash a rianbow of fury upon all who conformed not to its skittles love of darkness and of the world .

 

[JLB]

Is that the same type of deadlock Jesus ran into when sharing insight with the disciples?

It is like when the disciples asked Jesus "show us the Father." They were asking something that they should have known by that moment in time. I'm not trying to draw too many equivalents here, just a minor similarity of a situation.
I have answered the question for anyone else who is fine to read what I said. You can drop out or you can listen to Steve Gregg and take the discussion forward from there.

Did Jesus fight against the Roman army during 70AD?

Is the mount of Olives still there or is there a valley there today?


Do you believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ has already taken place?

 

[mikesw]

Did Jesus fight against the Roman army during 70AD?

Is the mount of Olives still there or is there a valley there today?


Do you believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ has already taken place?

I guess you missed my earlier post. Sorry if it did not stand out sufficiently. If you mean whether I think prophecy failed, I certainly do not think it failed.

 

[mikesw]

It is not the Christians who follow the interpretation given preference here. We will all benefit from the blessings in Christ even when God intervenes in accord with Rev 20:7-10, although anticipated through some incorrectly interpreted passage. The real ones harmed are the Jews, who are not taught how Christ was sent to cleanse Jacob from its sins. That is the message of OT prophecy and that is what evangelistic Christians should study.
We see in Zechariah 14, as explained by Steve Gregg, that the proper context is given. This is an instance to highlight of his recognition of the Jewish focus pertaining to the first century. He does not apply this concept everywhere, but this is a good example of doing it right. (I still prefer what Steve Gregg highlights of the OT more than other sources.)
One thing he highlights are the signposts that Jesus points out from Zechariah that establish the era of its fulfillment. Jesus does not put those signposts up of a contemporaneous event just so the reader of Zechariah will wait thousands of more years that no longer are in the context of the prophet's writing.

The obvious problem then is of the common failure to interpret the OT properly as it identifies the problems of the people who were supposed to follow God and then reveals the solution to their problem by sending the Messiah so as to complete that transition. This is the story that would have applied to any group of people placed in the same situation. Alternatively, the people of Israel maybe had a bit of extra ability to survive until the time Jesus appeared.

 

[JLB]

I guess you missed my earlier post. Sorry if it did not stand out sufficiently. If you mean whether I think prophecy failed, I certainly do not think it failed.

I never asked you about prophecy failing.


Did Jesus fight against the Roman army during 70AD?

Is the mount of Olives still there or is there a valley there today?


Do you believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ has already taken place?

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

I never asked you about prophecy failing.


Did Jesus fight against the Roman army during 70AD?

Is the mount of Olives still there or is there a valley there today?


Do you believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ has already taken place?

Lets see , i see three questions .
number one . NO , he sure did not fight against that roman army .
number two . i have no idea if it is , probably .
number three . The ressurection of the just and unjust has not taken place .
But something has occurred .
Since JESUS arose from the grave those whose faith were in Him
well i seen it speak of MANY came out of the graves and some even seen some of them .
So perhaps what has occured is JESUS WAS THE FIRSTFRUITS of those who slept
and now if a sheep dies , it never really dies it goes to sleep in CHRIST .
Whatever all that entails i have no full understanding .
I mean I know to be absent from This body is to be present with the LORD
and that also the dead in Christ shall rise and we who are still here will also be caught up together
with them . I do know that GOD does not work on a time that we see and know as time .
All i can do is believe what is written . Understanding does come in time .

 

[JLB]

I mean I know to be absent from This body is to be present with the LORD
and that also the dead in Christ shall rise and we who are still here will also be caught up together
with them .

Amen.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture occur at His coming, on the last day, at the end of the age.


Some folks believe this already occurred in 70 AD.


They have been deceived by a false doctrine of error, and are being used to lead others astray saying that the resurrection is past.


And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 2 Timothy 2:17-18


People who have strayed concerning the truth need to be brought back to the Lord, because they are spreading a cancer through the body of Christ called heresy.


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


Remember those who promote heresies, will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

Amen.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture occur at His coming, on the last day, at the end of the age.


Some folks believe this already occurred in 70 AD.


They have been deceived by a false doctrine of error, and are being used to lead others astray saying that the resurrection is past.


And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 2 Timothy 2:17-18


People who have strayed concerning the truth need to be brought back to the Lord, because they are spreading a cancer through the body of Christ called heresy.


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


Remember those who promote heresies, will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Not the rapture , but yes the ressurection .
Paul speaks of a time that is still coming ,
a time wherein some of us shall not even sleep
as have many others before us . aka that means they wont physcially bodily die
But rather CHANGED in an instant .
Now as far as the ressurection of the dead , per say , from the moment JESUS
came out of the grave and etc
All those who had died having faith in THIS COMING messiah
arose from the dead . I mean it does talk about that . if it didnt i would never dared
to have said such a thing . But in mathew it says very clearly that after HIS ressurection
they even SEEN some of these who had arisen from the grave .
THERE is an actual rapture coming .
Visualize it like this . Lets say you and i were talking
and THEN Bam JESUS came , INSTANTLY we fly up to meet him , changed in an instant
the dead in Christ shall rise and we who are still here on earth shall be cuaght up WITH THEM .
That day has not yet occurred . but yes if a sheep were to breath its last breath tonight
IT DEPARTS to be with THE LORD . however that all works out and what it entails
is what i am not hundred percent sure of .
The only thing i can manage to think is that perhaps just as JESUS told
the man on the cross next to him , TODAY YE SHALL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE
simple means GOD does not work within TIME as we know TIME to be .