What is the Gospel
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
brightfame52
Active Member
God created us all and has always loved us deeply—even at our worst. He loved us so much that He provided a path back from our lost ways.
God sent His Son, Jesus, to die on the cross and pay the price for our sins. Then on the third day, He miraculously rose from the dead. John 3:16 explains, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
God sent His Son, Jesus, to die on the cross and pay the price for our sins. Then on the third day, He miraculously rose from the dead. John 3:16 explains, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
Abimelech did Sin with Sara, and God punished him and his whole family with a curse. If you would have studied for the purpose of seeking God's Truth, instead of seeking justification for an adopted religious philosophy, you would know that God punished Abimelech because of his sin with Sarah. But God didn't allow Abimelech to defile Sara, in the same way God didn't allow satan to kill Job.
So your first pillar of justification is factually wrong, and God didn't keep Abimelech from sinning.
In your adopted religious philosophy, Adam had no choice. You say out of one side of your mouth that God didn't "force Adam to sin", then out of the other side of your mouth you say God "predestined" Adam to sin.
And then God punished Adam for doing what God "predestined" him to do, in order for God's plan to be carried out.
I believe God creates everything. The world God placed me in, the religious voices, "who profess to know God" that surround me and that God has placed before me Good and Evil, and has given me the capacity to choose, same as Adam and Eve. And I have already made the wrong choice, as all humans but One has done.
But I am free to believe in the Word of God.
Ez. 18: 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
The implication of your religion that God lied to me here, that I can't believe God's Words unless my name is drawn in some secret holy lottery, is absurd.
Eph. 1: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Here, Lets include the part you omitted.
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first "trusted in Christ".
Yes, from the very beginning, those who trusted in the Christ, the Holy One of Israel, not their own religions, are promised to obtain, predestined to obtain an inheritance. The promises to Abraham and those who do the "Works" of Abraham, that the Jesus "of the Bible" called Abraham's Children.
The teaching that God, based on no choice we make, withhold from men the capacity to Trust Christ, then punishes them for eternity "Because" they didn't trust Christ is a wicked judgment against a Just and all knowing God.
But you promote that Adam didn't have a choice. And also that Jesus didn't have a choice. That no one has a choice. That we are all "predestined" by God, based on no choice we make.
So Adam was before ordained by God to sin? God created the circumstances, and knows the future before it happens, but Adam's Choice was Adam's choice. I know this because God punished him for his sin. Your preaching that God "ordained" Adam to Sin, then punished him and all of mankind, because he did what God "ordained him" to do, is a wicked judgment against God.
But God knows the end from the beginning, which means God has already seen the choices all men make. He knew Jesus would be killed because HE sees the end from the beginning. Your preaching that God "ordained" the murder of His Own Prophets, and then His Own Son, and then promised to punish them for doing what HE ordained them to do, is not what the Bible teaches.
So you believe in God's Kingdom, the only way to Glorify God is to Sin against Him like Adam, so you can see His Grace in Christ?
I don't pretend to have all understanding in the mystery of God’s purpose and ways either. But I have never heard God glorify or praise a sinner, because without them we would not know the Grace in Christ.
I believe Adam represents all free will beings, and the requirement that we place limitations on our own free will. Just as God, the Greatest Free will Being to ever exist, placed limitations on HIS Own Free will. God is a patient, loving, Just and honest God. No one "makes" God place these Limitations on Himself, HE does so of His Own Accord for the good of His Kingdom. NO Kingdom of free will beings can prosper, unless the beings place limitations on their own free will.
We are not robots, some programed to live, some programed to die. But that is the philosophy of Calvinism.
Mankind has free will, but need to willingly learn from their Father what limitations to place on themselves. That is what God's Laws are for, in my understanding. The first Adam leaned on his own understanding, the 2nd Adam was Learned of the Father.
That is how it is for all men. The Old man, (first Adam) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" is voluntarily crucified (with Christ), replaced by "putting on" a New Man, (Second Adam) "created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained "that we should walk in them".
"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue "in his goodness:" otherwise "thou also" shalt be cut off.
You and I were both placed in a world in which "other voices" exist, that profess to know God, but are disobedient to His Judgments, Commandments and Statutes. I advocate that we listen to and live by EVERY Word of God, as the Christ "of the Bible" instructs. Not all these other voices that men copy and paste from to justify a religion.
Last edited:
Bondage of the Will: It certainly is true that Jesus, in John 8:34, says that one "who commits sin is the slave of sin". But that does not mean that everything that one does or even wants to do is sin. Even the slave can want to be free. And just before verse 34, Jesus said that "the truth will set you free" (v.32). But you claim that cannot happen. You claim that one must be set free before one can even know the truth. That is backward. You are wrong.
Joh 8:31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,
Joh 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
And yet once again we see that it all starts with faith, with believing in Jesus. And that comes from hearing the word about Christ, the divine message from God Himself. (John 6:45; Rom 10:17). This is emphasized in the previous verses (John 8:12-30) which culminates in verse 30 with, "As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him". And again referring back to chapter 3 we read in John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." That is, believe in Jesus and obey; have faith in Jesus and obey Him.
You have no understanding.
Regeneration comes from hearing which produces faith which leads to obedience which provides for regeneration.
@Jim
No sinner own their own power could ever believe, they would believe just about anything, other than the truth.
And this is the rock (divine revelation by the Spirit) upon which teh church of Jesus Christ is built upon!
That is false ~ then you truly do not understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. Romans 5:1-10; 1st Corinthians 15:22; etc. I do not have a lot of time to go into these scriptures one more time, but we shall see, I will if time permits.
Jim not affront to God, but to man! Even living in this world without even knowing the scriptures, most men know just how wicked other men are by all of the wickedness that man does, even to their own loved ones, or supposedly loved one, most men are even contrary to themselves, much more so to others.
Jim~Being "learned of the Father," based on John 6:45, means having one's heart and mind inwardly instructed by the Spirit of God in order for them to know the truth concerning Jesus Christ, the end results is for that person willingly coming to him ~ It is a divine, inward illumination (or creating a new man with them) that draws individuals to believe and to love Jesus Christ and his gospel of free grace.
No sinner own their own power could ever believe, they would believe just about anything, other than the truth.
Matthew 16:17
“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”And this is the rock (divine revelation by the Spirit) upon which teh church of Jesus Christ is built upon!
Agreed, yet this holy birth is by the Spirit of God alone, without any means whatsoever under heaven, period!
@Jim
Regeneration comes by the Spirit of God alone, without any means whatsoever.
The word of God is our source of information revealing the truths of everything we know about God, ourselves, and why we believe as we do; and apart from the testimony/witness of God, we would never know one thing about how we got here, and how all this will end, etc., but we know by first being born of God and then hearing/reading the holy scriptures he has so graciously given to us.
Wrong, so wrong, Jim.
Regeneration comes by the Spirit of God alone, without any means whatsoever.
The word of God is our source of information revealing the truths of everything we know about God, ourselves, and why we believe as we do; and apart from the testimony/witness of God, we would never know one thing about how we got here, and how all this will end, etc., but we know by first being born of God and then hearing/reading the holy scriptures he has so graciously given to us.
Adam is not even mentioned in Romans 5:1-10, let alone that his sin affected us. And the reference to Adam in 1 Corinthians 15:22 is only a reference to our being humans. As human beings we die physically.
Total depravity assigns human sin to God's imputing Adam's sin to the rest of all mankind. That is and affront to God.
That is not the teaching of God's word. God gave mankind the ability to learn and the free will to choose. The TULIP religion rejects both.
Again another charge against God for producing human beings incapable believing what God has commanded them to do.
You are not Peter. He received divine revelation; you only receive the results of divine revelation. You need Peter and what God revealed to Peter. You need a preacher [or today the written words of Peter and the rest of the apostles and prophets] to tell you what God told Peter and the rest of the apostles and prophets.
The issue is not by whom we are born again; of course, we are born again by God alone. The question is who does God regenerate and how does He choose them. He chooses those who believe in Him.
Joh 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
Joh 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
brightfame52
Active Member
Gen 20:6
6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
Take that up with God my friend.
brightfame52
Active Member
Hearing, learning, coming are all spiritual activities from life, spiritual life.
Man naturally doesnt hear Gods word spiritually, its them of God that does Jn 8:47
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
In fact He told unregenerate jews that they cannot hear the word of God Vs 43
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Of course you are Biblically correct. But how long should one argue with the promoters of Calvinism, or the Mormon religion, or the JW religion, or Islam, or Buddhism, or the promoters of many other religious sects and businesses that exist in the world God placed us in?
Jesus pretty much tells us who will not be persuaded.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
And God does say these things in all of His Holy Teaching.
Ez. 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
The preaching that God is lying here, and that God withholds the ability or capacity of a man to turn from his sins, and turn unto God, unless God first chooses allows him to repent, is a wicked philosophy.
Of course this is foolishness, but how long should a person try to convince men that God is not being dishonest here, to a religious philosophy whose foundation is based on the assumption that God lied throughout the entire Law and Prophets? And even implies that Paul, Peter and Jesus also were not honest about man's ability to "Deny himself and follow Christ". Or "Yield himself" to God, or "submit himself" to God's Righteousness, and not our own.
I know there comes a point when it is becmes vain jangling, but I struggle as to when that point is. When does it stop being a heart felt attempt to reason with someone through scriptures, and becomes a fleshy lust to put someone who is promoting falsehoods about the Word of God, in his place?
LOL, I suppose I just answered my own question.
Nevertheless, it is good to discern this world's religious philosophies, not only believed on by others, but more importantly, the religious philosophies of this world that take root in our own minds.
I think this is why Jesus said those who "Do Truth" "come to the Light" for the very purpose of Exposing this kind of darkness, so we can be free from the influences of this world's religious philosophies, like tulip, that "are not" wrought in God.
You should read the whole account.
2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah.
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman "which thou hast taken"; for she is a man's wife.
4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.
6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee "not to touch her".
But it was wrong for Abimelech to "Take her" in the first place.
7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.
Gen. 20: 17 So Abraham prayed unto God: and God healed Abimelech, and his wife, and his maidservants; and they bare children.
18 For the LORD had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, "because" of Sarah Abraham's wife.
brightfame52
Active Member
You should believe whats in the account Gen 20:6
6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
Im going by what God said to him
@Red Baker and I have been battering back and forth for many years now. I really do not expect to convert him, although I do keep hoping that one day he will come to the truth that the TULIP religion is wrong and come to the truth of the Gospel of God. I do it for two main reasons. The first is that @Red is quite good at presenting his views, so through our interchanges I think a receive a very good presentation of the TULIP religious side of things. Second I continue to do it mostly so that others reading here might get a countering to the TULIP religion, even if they do not enter into a discussion themselves.
Finally in answer to your question, I think on the one hand there is a point at which it probably makes no sense in continuing to argue with specific promoters of Calvinism, etc., but on the other hand, that is the world and are we not to take the truth to the world? And also, quite frankly, I am not one to stand on the street corner preaching to the world; so engaging in such forums as this one and with those in my own congregation is likely the way for me to most often speak on such things.
Gen. 2: 15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
So then you must also believe that God punished Adam and Eve for nothing, because they were only doing what God Commanded them. And of course, you can post your cherry picked scripture to justify your religion and say, "see" "Im going by what God said to him".
So then, you must also believe that God punished Abimelech for nothing too, since according to your cherry picked verse, Abimelech didn't sin against God.
I suppose in your religion, it wasn't a sin to steal Abrahams sister. That if Sara had been just his sister, God would not have punished Abimelech and Sara would have become a Philistine.
But God did punish Abimelech, and his wife and maidservants. It's in your own Bible. Just as God also said, 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
So if it isn't a sin in your religion to steal someone's sister, and Abimelech didn't touch Sara, because God only let Abimelech go so far with her, then why did God punish Abimelech and his family?
Hearing, learning, and obeying are all commandments of God. Are you really suggesting that God, Himself, prevents us from hearing, learning and obeying His commandments and then condemns us to eternal punishment for the things that He has prevented us from doing? I fully understand his condemnation for not doing so, but that He has prevented us from not doing so is truly an insult and an attack on the integrity of God. If regeneration is in fact a necessary requirement to hear, learn and obey Him and He does not regenerate one, then He has prevented that one from doing the very things He has commanded. If you do not understand that, then you are to be most pitied.
brightfame52
Active Member
Gen 20:6
6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
Im going by what God said to him
