What is the Gospel

Jim said:
So often so many try to carry the effects of the physically dead over to the effects of the spiritually dead.
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They both have one thing in common, they dead
Jim said:
When God said do this or that and one does this or that as god commanded, is that an unspiritual act?
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If a person is unregenerate person just in nature, God doesnt command him to do a spiritual act. If a person has been born of the Spirit, God commands them to do spiritual acts. Its that simple.
Jim said:
In point of fact, as Paul relates in Romans 7 for a spiritual man to do unspiritual acts is natural for him to do.
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Paul as all them who have been born of the Spirit have two natures, one spiritual and one natural. Sometimes one with two natures may perform acts according to one of the two natures. But the unregenerate with just one nature, the flesh, they're limited to just performing acts according to that nature. The regenerate have an advantage spiritually over the unregenrate.
 
Jim said:
He came out of his mother's womb with a spirit given him by God. Are you so hateful as to think God gave him a spirit dead in sin? I would hope not, but I fear that is your unbiblical religion and sadly an Augustinian false view of God.
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Man is born naturally spiritually dead in trespasses and sins and his only hope out of that is to be quickened, made alive Eph 2:1-5

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
 
@Jim
Jim said:
So often so many try to carry the effects of the physically dead over to the effects of the spiritually dead. That is wholly inappropriate.
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Jim, it is not inappropriate, as a matter of truth, Paul made a point of showing us that it is not only appropriate, but we are taught by the Spirit of God that we should make this connection, so that, we can see that one is born again only by the power and will of God alone.

Ephesians 1:17-20​

“That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,”

So clearly written, but for you to accept this as truth from heaven, then you must deny your work gospel that your flesh trust in, and the gospel preached by ministers of the devil, who minimizes the truth that Christ "alone secured our gift of eternal life" by his life of obedience, and that we had not one thing to do with being saved from sin and condemnation, not one thing.

Jim, if it took the same power that raised Christ from the dead, to quicken dead sinners to life, then the analogy "fits perfectly" in God's theology, but not in man's work system, and we can and should used this to show others that man's works has not one thing to do with him being born of Spirit, not one little act on man's part Jim.
 
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brightfame52 said:
They both have one thing in common, they dead
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The physically dead do not breathe. Do the spiritually dead breathe?
brightfame52 said:
If a person is unregenerate person just in nature, God doesnt command him to do a spiritual act. If a person has been born of the Spirit, God commands them to do spiritual acts. Its that simple.
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To obey God's laws are indeed spiritual acts. If you do not understand that, then you are even more confused than I thought.
brightfame52 said:
Paul as all them who have been born of the Spirit have two natures, one spiritual and one natural. Sometimes one with two natures may perform acts according to one of the two natures. But the unregenerate with just one nature, the flesh, they're limited to just performing acts according to that nature. The regenerate have an advantage spiritually over the unregenrate.
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Man by creation has two natures, one physical (natura) and one spiritual. The issue is which one is the dominant control in one's life. Once one has sinned, the sin has two major effects upon the sinner. There is the old favorite hymn "Rock of Ages". At the end of the first verse of that hymn is the call upon the blood of Christ to "be of sin the double cure; save me from its guilt and power" (or "save from wrath and make me pure"}. Here we see the twofold nature of salvation, which makes it a "double cure".

It is apparent, though the song does not use these words, that God saves us from a “double trouble”. In the hymn the “double trouble” is called the guilt and power of sin, or in its other version wrath and impurity. In other words, our sins make us guilty; they put us in a wrong relationship with God and his law and bring us under his wrath. This is a legal problem. At the same time our sins corrupt our natures and make us spiritually sick and depraved. This is a problem with our spiritual health.

The second part of the “double trouble” caused by sin is that it gives the sinner a sinful nature. That is, sin affects not only our objective relationship with God and his law; it also affects us subjectively and personally, in our very being. It brings about a weakness of the soul, making it harder to resist temptation. The sinner’s spirit is corrupted, diseased, and depraved. The sinner is spiritually sick and evil in his inner nature; he has a sinful heart. This condition is, as Paul describes it, is being dead in trespasses and sin. This is the condition of being spiritually dead; depraved but not totally so as Augustine declared. this condition is due, not to anything Adam did, but rather from the sin committed by the sinner himself. This condition does not preclude the sinner from obeying God's law, but it clearly is in a dominant position making it harder and harder for the sinner to obey.

This condition does not, as you claim, limit one to just performing unspiritual acts. And having been born again, i.e., regenerated, does not bring one to the point of just performing spiritual acts (Rom 7:7-25).

There is so much more to be said about all of this, but I will stop for now.
 
Red Baker said:
@Jim

Jim, it is not inappropriate, as a matter of truth, Paul made a point of showing us that it is not only appropriate, but we are taught by the Spirit of God that we should make this connection, so that, we can see that one is born again only by the power and will of God alone.
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It most certainly is inappropriate. As I just responded to @brightfame52 above, being spiritually dead does not destroy any of our physical abilities; one can still breathe, eat, run jump, listen, learn, etc., etc. It does not destroy any of our spiritual abilities, although it does indeed corrupt and damage the spirit making it harder and harder to obey God. In regeneration, we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit to help us in our fight against disobedience. Read again and understand what Paul is teaching in Romans 7.
Red Baker said:
Ephesians 1:17-20
“That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,”
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I see that you began you quote a few verses too late. Back up a bit beginning with verse 3, noting particularly verses 13 and 14:
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Red Baker said:
So clearly written, but for you to accept this as truth from heaven, then you must deny your work gospel that your flesh trust in, and the gospel preached by ministers of the devil, who minimizes the truth that Christ "alone secured our gift of eternal life" by his life of obedience, and that we had not one thing to do with being saved from sin and condemnation, not one thing.

Jim, if it took the same power that raised Christ from the dead, to quicken dead sinners to life, then the analogy "fits perfectly" in God's theology, but not in man's work system, and we can and should used this to show others that man's works has not one thing to do with him being born of Spirit, not one little act on man's part Jim.
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You and your complete incomprehension of Paul's teaching on works. Red, when are you ever going to understand and accept Paul's teaching against salvation by works of the Law? Never it seems. The bible never ever says that one can be saved without ever doing anything. Faith, believing in God, is a work, something that one does. But it is not a work of the law.

And in fact according to Paul, "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Rom 2:13). But as James says, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (Jam 2:10). In other words, if one were to keep the whole law perfectly, he would not be guilty and would have eternal life. But having committed even one sin makes one guilty and according to Paul " all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23).

The crux of the issue of works is works of law, not just doing something. In fact, Paul says in Romas 4:5 (in keeping with Jesus own words in John 6:29), "to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness". To be counted as righteousness is to be saved. It is first necessary to believe in God in order to be saved.
 
Red Baker said:
@Studyman

Not angry, very seldom ever I'm I angry. I only want you be be honest when saying what I do believe or do not believe ~All I'm asking you to do is quote my actual words and then show me with scriptures what I saying against them , etc.
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Thank you for the request Red. I am happy to show you.

Red Baker says, "Man has no free will". These is your words, the foundation of your religion.

But God says, "I place Life and Death before you, therefore choose life, that you may live."

"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Jesus says, "Deny Yourself and follow ME", "Be Ye Perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect." A pretty high calling for sure.

Paul says; "Yield yourself" a servant to obey God. "Put On" the New Man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.", "Offer yourself" a living sacrifice to God. To "Put on the whole armour of God", that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

Two completely different gospels. There is your words that preach one thing, then there are God's Inspired Words that teach something altogether different. To follow you, I would have to consider God's Inspired Word as a falsehood. And not just the Scriptures posted above, but most of the entire bible.

So once again Red, I am showing you God's Word, and then quoting "YOUR WORDS" that preach against them. Here, lets let God's Word expose another popular philosophy you have adopted, that is against Him.

Red Baker says, "Paul, as a zealous Pharisee, obeyed "the law of God, that he thought would give life to those who kept it".,

This is your own preaching, your own words for decades and a foundational pillar of your adopted religion, based on your posts.

But when I study Jesus' "Actual Words" in the bible", as HE defines the "Jews Religion" (Pharisees) Paul was zealous for when he was a Pharisee, here is what HE says.

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments "of men". NOT the Laws of God, as your adopted religion promotes.

8 For "laying aside" the commandment "of God", ye hold the tradition "of men", (Not God's Laws as your quoted words say) as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And "he said unto them", Full well "ye reject" the commandment "of God", that ye may keep "your own tradition". Not as your words teach, ththey full well obeyed "the Laws of God", that they may keep their own tradition".

So again, God's Inspired Word says one thing, Red Baker's words preach against Him, promoting almost the exact opposite.

Did you choose of your own free will to adopt the religious philosophy that teaches against God's Word? Or did God force you to promote philosophies that teach against God's Word, because you have no free will?

And for a nobody like me, what difference does that distinction make? Shall I not believe in and follow the Word of God, who became flesh, regardless of the reason why you teach the things you teach? What would I tell Him, "in that day" if I rejected HIS Words and adopted yours?? "Red Baker beguiled me"?

And maybe none of it matters, after all, as a Baptist preacher once told me, "It's only a Book".

You asked of me "All I'm asking you to do is quote my actual words and then show me with scriptures what I saying against them". And I have granted your request. The question now, is will it make any difference in your preaching? My hope is that you will be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and of your own free will, "deny yourself" and follow the Word of God that became Flesh.
 
Red Baker said:
@Studyman

Before God, I have never avoided not answering your questions, and I always discuss anything in particular that you desire to discuss, as long as we have not covered it already many times over.
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"I see you completely ignored my questions once again. But it's worth bringing up again. Paul said:

Phil. 3: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a "Pharisee";

Now your post stated that the Pharisees were obeying "the law of God, that he thought would give life to those who kept it".

I asked you some questions concerning this philosophy you have adopted. Here they are again.

Did the Pharisees Submit to God's Righteousness, or did they go about establishing their own righteousness? Let's see if you can answer.

Did the Pharisees teach for doctrines the Commandments of men, or commandments of God? Let's see if you can answer.

Did the Pharisees full well obey God's Commandments, that they might keep their traditions, or did they full well reject God's Commandments, that they might keep their traditions. Let's see if you can answer.

By the Pharisees Law, should Jesus and Stephen live because they told the truth, or die because they told the truth? Let's see if you can answer.

When Paul was a Pharisee, was he walking in the Flesh, or the Spirit? Did the man Jesus walk in the Flesh, or the Spirit?"
 
brightfame52 said:
Not Spiritually. How can a spiritually dead person breath spiritually ? Because he dead
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And now in the truest sense of the Calvinist, you are eisegetically making up definitions again. Breathing has nothing to do with the spiritual. It is a purely physical activity. But then so are all the other physical senses of the human being. Seeing, hearing, feeling etc. are all physical activities having nothing to do with the spiritual.
 
Jim said:
And now in the truest sense of the Calvinist, you are eisegetically making up definitions again. Breathing has nothing to do with the spiritual.
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Dead spiritually has something to do with spiritual. Man is by nature dead spiritually, we have no spiritual connection with God
 
Studyman said:
But God says, "I place Life and Death before you, therefore choose life, that you may live."

"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Jesus says, "Deny Yourself and follow ME", "Be Ye Perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect." A pretty high calling for sure.

Paul says; "Yield yourself" a servant to obey God. "Put On" the New Man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.", "Offer yourself" a living sacrifice to God. To "Put on the whole armour of God", that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."
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None of those verses state man has a freewill. Man by nature his will is enlaved to the flesh and the devil. Jn 8:44

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
 
brightfame52 said:
Yes it did. Man has no spiritual ability because he dead in trespasses and sins, alienated from the Life of God.
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More absolute nonsense, insulting God. While the sinner is not a member of the kingdom of God, God nevertheless is well aware of his condition and situation.
 
brightfame52 said:
None of those verses state man has a freewill. Man by nature his will is enlaved to the flesh and the devil. Jn 8:44

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
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Even the enslaved can sincerely wish to be set free. To think otherwise is foolish.

Even the liar can speak truth if he so desires.
 

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