Truly screwed up interpretations based upon Augustine's gnostic views he carried over from Manichaeism.
What is the Gospel
- Thread starter civic
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brightfame52
Active Member
Happy to see that you finally agree.
brightfame52
Active Member
@Studyman
John clearly proves three human apparatuses that are "not" connected to the new birth in any way whatsoever: It is not through our blood line, Jewish, etc., etc. Nor of our will of our flesh, nor of the will of another person desiring one new birth for another person, it is strictly and only by the power and will of God alone!
Now you, and @Jim and @civic can argue against the God who gave to us John 1:13, and like like scriptures, I'll beleive what he has given and very wise path to go on.
Are these scriptures clear? Yes and this is where we stand.
A born again child of God has two natures, one a new man that has been created after the image of Jesus Christ; the other, the old man, one born of Adam, is corrupt and evil and hates God, truth, righteousness, etc. One is after the flesh and the other after the Spirit. God's children are not in the flesh, but after the Spirit, because the Spirit of God lives in them (their new man) and they alone have the power to please God and do his will. The new man only desires to please God and can please him to the degree we walk after him. It is impossible for the old man to please God, for he is not subject to God's word neither indeed can be just as Paul said!
I have other appointments that I must do, maybe later I'll post more.
Prove it, just do not say it, that proves not one thing to any honest lover and seeker of the truth. Your definition of God's elect are those that of their own free will believe, which John said is a lie, and not the truth!
John 1:13
“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”John clearly proves three human apparatuses that are "not" connected to the new birth in any way whatsoever: It is not through our blood line, Jewish, etc., etc. Nor of our will of our flesh, nor of the will of another person desiring one new birth for another person, it is strictly and only by the power and will of God alone!
Now you, and @Jim and @civic can argue against the God who gave to us John 1:13, and like like scriptures, I'll beleive what he has given and very wise path to go on.
Oh, I know this and I never have even hinted that it so. Just because I reject your lies does not mean I reject the word of the Living God.
I understand this truth perfectly. Men by nature not only reject the truth, all men in their natural state are at war against it, and will remain at war against God, until he shows mercy to them and gives them a new heart that would submit to his voice therein.
Romans 8:7
“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”Ezekiel 36:26,27
“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”Are these scriptures clear? Yes and this is where we stand.
You are trusting in your bible by reading in it what you want to read, and seeing in your bible what you want to see, the problem is a heart problem, spiritually speaking. Your are trusting in your old flesh, not not living by a new man that God give to his children by his mighty power and "because he loves them unconditionally " through Jesus Christ's work of redemption for them.
Omit? You did nothing more than add to my point, that's all! Men in the flesh, or, not born of the Spirit of God, cannot please God until they are FIRST in the Spirit, or they must be born again, to not be in the flesh.
A born again child of God has two natures, one a new man that has been created after the image of Jesus Christ; the other, the old man, one born of Adam, is corrupt and evil and hates God, truth, righteousness, etc. One is after the flesh and the other after the Spirit. God's children are not in the flesh, but after the Spirit, because the Spirit of God lives in them (their new man) and they alone have the power to please God and do his will. The new man only desires to please God and can please him to the degree we walk after him. It is impossible for the old man to please God, for he is not subject to God's word neither indeed can be just as Paul said!
Do not tell me what I believe, for when you do, it is totally against what I believe and teach! Read again above what I believe and teach and do not pervert my position which you make a practice of. Shame on you.
Never said they were, that's your words, not mine. Do not put words in mouth as though I said them. But when a person yield themselves to God, they do so, because they have a new nature created after the image of Jesus Christ which give them the power to yield, otherwise, they could not do so, in their natural state. Do you understand what I'm saying? Do not pervert my words.
I have never said that Adam and Even did not have a free will, of course they did, but lost that image of God when they sinned and took on the image of theri new master the devil himself. In the new birth God's children are created after the image of Jesus Christ by God's power of creating a new man within them!
Colossians 3:10
“And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:”I have no clue what you are attempting to set forth, and not sure you do. I will only say this ~fallen man does not have a free will to do good, he only does according to his depraved nature desires to do, which is evil.
I have other appointments that I must do, maybe later I'll post more.
civic
Active Member
of course God gives the new birth but its through hearing and believing the gospel message.
so we see the new birth is a result of hearing and believing the preaching of the word of God. the gospel message.
James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.
1 Peter 1:25
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
1 Peter 1:21-24
Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. 22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,
“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”
And this is the word that was preached to you.
1 John 5:1
1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. Whoever loves the Father also loves the child who is born of him.
Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Ephesians 5:26
to sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
Ephesians 1:13-14
And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, / who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory.
1 Corinthians 4:15
Even if you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we should always thank God for you, brothers who are loved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved by the sanctification of the Spirit and by faith in the truth.
Colossians 1:5-6
the faith and love proceeding from the hope stored up for you in heaven, of which you have already heard in the word of truth, the gospel / that has come to you. All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood the grace of God.
conclusion: the calvinists have this backwards.
Again, you select one verse from the bible, separate it from all the other Words of the Bible, then twist it so you can use it to support a religions philosophy you have adopted, that existed in the world God placed you in. A Philosophy that cannot stand, if all of the Inspired Words of God are considered. I'll show you again.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But "as many as received him", "to them" gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Aren't the sons of God Spiritually "born of God", and not man?
Consider the utter absurdity of the popular religious philosophy you have adopted and are promoting to others here, that God withheld the ability of those who received him not, "to receive Him". That God created men from birth with NO CHOICE but to "receive Him Not", then destroys them "Because" they did not receive Him.. And in the same manner, created men from birth with NO CHOICE but "to receive Him", then gave those men the power to become the sons of God.
I am doing nothing more than what the Prophets, Apostles and Jesus did, in that I am discerning the "food/meat/fruit" that the religions of this world you have adopted, are trying to feed me, like Adam should have done, and Jesus "DID DO".
I know you don't offer this food in malice, any more than Eve offered the forbidden fruit to Adam in malice, but out of fleshy carnal love. You have just been deceived by preachers who profess to know God, in the world God placed you in, just as Eve was deceived by the preachers who professed to know God, in the World God placed her in.
You do have the choice to break away from the Yoke of Bondage of your adopted religion, that will not allow you to answer questions or discuss Scriptures except the few you are allowed to post.
If you would only see that the tactic you have been taught to use to promote your religious philosophy, is the same one the preacher in Eve's time used. That is, to promote and defend a certain religious philosophy by selecting "part" of God's Word, while rejecting the rest. It's right there in your own Bible, how do you know this whole conversation is not to show you this?
Consider what the preacher did in Eve's time..
Gen. 3: And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Is this true?
Gen. 2 15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God "commanded the man", saying, Of every tree of the garden "thou mayest freely eat".
So if a person searches God's Word to justify their lust to eat whatever their flesh desires, they will find it, but only by carefully selected Words of God that are separated from the rest of God's Word. As can be clearly seen, John 1:13 does not teach that a man doesn't have free will to reject or accept God, unless you separate it from the rest of the entire bible, and twist it to promote your adopted religious philosophy.
Is. 1: 19 "If ye be willing" and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: 20 But "if ye refuse" and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the "mouth of the LORD" hath spoken it.
The false teaching that God makes a man refuse and rebel, then devours him by the Sword, "Because" he refused and rebelled, is a demented, evil and wicked philosophy. A Philosophy that can only be believed, if a man is convinced that God is a liar.
Duet. 30: 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But "if thine heart turn away", so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that "I have set before you" life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore "choose life", that both thou and thy seed may live:
So God teaches over and over, Jesus teaches, Paul teaches to "Choose Life", to "Yield ourselves" to God.
But Red Baker teaches, NO!, Men have no choice in the matter, placing me in the same spot Eve was in. Do I choose to listen to Red, the "other voice", who professes to know God, and adopt their religious philosophy? Or do I choose instead, God's Own Words, reject the Philosophies of this world you are promoting. I Choose to follow the Christ "of the Bible" Red. It's nothing personal, you can choose to do the same thing, but you would have to deny yourself first.
And again, God's Word teaches over and over, that The Pharisees were trying to create their own way into heaven, and had despised God's Judgments, full well rejected God's Commandments, and taught for doctrines the Commandments of men, and not God. And had gone about establishing their own righteousness, refusing to submit to the Righteousness of God.
But Red Baker teaches that the Pharisees were obeying "the law of God, that he thought would give life to those who kept it".,
Once again placing me in the shoes of Eve. I already listened to the religions of this world you are promoting once Red, Wherein in time past I walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".
I wish you would come to believe "Every Word of God" to Red, but no one is forcing you to humble yourself to Him Red, it's a voluntary humility.
brightfame52
Active Member
The Gospel does no [Spiritual] good to the natural man !
1 Cor 2:14
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Its like casting your pearls b4 swine Matt 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
The Gospel as a word of Salvation is for the saved or the ones being saved. But to the natural man, them in a state of perishing, its a savour of death !
1 Cor 2:14
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Its like casting your pearls b4 swine Matt 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
The Gospel as a word of Salvation is for the saved or the ones being saved. But to the natural man, them in a state of perishing, its a savour of death !
The Pharisees, the mainstream preachers of Jesus Time, got angry when Jesus pointed out through scriptures, their man made religion, and accused Him of lying too, just as the Jews did to the Prophets before them, so it's to be expected that the same Word of God would also anger you to accuse me of lying, when I simply posted the Words of God you omit from your religion, so I am not offended by your accusations.
But to be honest, It is God's Word Himself that teaches "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that "I have set before you life and death", blessing and cursing: therefore "choose life", that both thou and thy seed may live:
God gave the exact same choice for Adam and Eve.
While you preach that God gave men no Choice. So it's not my words you reject or imply are lies. It's God's Word. Read your own posts Red. You do not believe in the Word of God, concerning who the Choice HE gives all mankind.
And you also preach that the Pharisees were obeying "the law of God, that they thought would give life to those who kept it"
While every Word of Christ, the Inspired by God Law and Prophets, and Paul defined spoke, concerning the law the Pharisees religion promoted, teaches the exact opposite.
And I post questions, and Scriptures in an attempt to discern the spirit of your preaching, which I am instructed by God to do. But your religion will not allow you to answer my questions, or even acknowledge, much less discuss the Word's of God I post.
Like the Pharisees and Eve, men are free to adopt whatever religious sect, philosophy or voice that exists in this world God placed them in.
Rom. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom "ye yield yourselves" servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
But you will only reply with more self justification, so there is not reason to continue with you.
brightfame52
Active Member
The Natural Man and the Gospel
by Wylie W. FultonNo natural sinner can savingly repent or believe. It was the invention of Andrew Fuller and others, in the early “missionary movement” among Baptists—they said that the natural man has a duty to perform spiritual acts, and so they busily “offered” Jesus and the blessings of the atonement to all and sundry. The Bible didn’t teach that, but always made qualifications as to those for whom the Gospel message was effectual. The older Baptists always made the distinction between natural and spiritual duties—the natural man was responsible (that is, had a duty) to obey the Law, to honor his parents and honor God only. This natural sinner possessed neither duty nor ability within the realms of the spiritual and was not, by the older order of Baptists, ever exhorted to immediate repentance or faith. These men preached the Gospel freely, but always in its proper order. The first duty of the sinner is to bow to God as his Creator, Law-giver and Judge. It is the duty of quickened sinners to “obey the Gospel.” But with the advent of “Fullerism” it was taught that a spiritually dead man had a God-imposed “duty” to make himself alive and come to God and believe in Jesus and “obey the Gospel” and “get saved.” On the contrary, the sinner is spiritually dead to God and a dead man needs a spiritual resurrection before he can even entertain the idea of coming to the Lord.
Neither can a dead sinner open his own heart to spiritual truth. God opens the heart; Christ opens the understanding; God gives the sinner a new will and gives the sinner the power or authority to “become a son of God” (Read Acts 16:14; Luke 24:45; Psalm 110:3; John 1:11-13).
As alluded to earlier, the spiritually dead, unawakened sinner cannot accept a mere offer or proposition and become a new creature as a result of the effort put forth. Life comes first from God—“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1). “She that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth” (1 Timothy 5:6)—alive to the world and its pleasures, she is most certainly, but totally dead unto God, and spiritual acts towards God are not within her compass. Here is a question for some of you easy-believe, free-offer, Fullerite preachers: How are you going to offer or invite such a spiritually dead person to come and receive life? GOD QUICKENS and then the sinner comes—how clear it is! A sinner cannot regenerate himself, any more than a dead corpse can raise himself back to life. As he is not capable of such, but is a “natural man” who “receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God” (1 Corinthians 2:14), neither is he responsible to do so. But, get this statement, also falling from the pen of the Apostle Paul: “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (2 Corinthians 5:17). There you have it! FIRST God makes a man a new creature in Christ Jesus, and then repentance and faith and all the graces of the Spirit will come to be manifested in that poor sinner’s life!
Every natural sinner is responsible in the realm of Law wherein he finds himself, and God deals with him first on the basis of his relationship to his Creator and Law-Giver. But a sinner cannot perform any law-work or any spiritual work to recommend himself to God or to get to God. He is shut up under the Law as a Schoolmaster to force him to Christ (Galatians 3:24). And his deliverance in Christ is only known when it pleases God to give it.
Helpless, alien, dead, blind, subject of original sin, bound by Satan—the sinner cannot effect or merit his own deliverance. This deliverance of the Hell-bound sinner, facing his own death and eternal condemnation, surely is only bestowed by God’s abounding grace to that sinner. Think on these things. We feel that the distinction made here is vitally important to any true Gospel ministry or evangelism.
Available (soon) as a printed tract from:
Landmark Independent Baptist Church
P.O. Box 847
Archer, FL 32618-0847
@brightfame52
I was a young man back then, mid thirties maybe. Wylie may be dead now, since he was older than me by a few years.
PS
Here's is what I just found on Wylie: https://www.the-highway.com/salvation5_Fulton.html
He's 86 years old and I think he's still living, I may call him this week.
Wylie invited me to preach in his home back in the early 80's~he lived in Forest City, N.C. I still remember what I preach on.
1st John 2:1
“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:”I was a young man back then, mid thirties maybe. Wylie may be dead now, since he was older than me by a few years.
PS
Here's is what I just found on Wylie: https://www.the-highway.com/salvation5_Fulton.html
He's 86 years old and I think he's still living, I may call him this week.
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You would claim that God holds one responsible, i.e., condemns, for what God, Himself, forces that one to do. Absolute obscene view of God.
You would punish your child for not cleaning his room, a room you prohibit him from clleaning.
@Studyman
John 1:13 is nothing more than the Spirit's commentary on John 1:10-12!
Hold on, are you now saying you do not believe that God's children are not born of God alone? Studyman, I never said God withheld the power to receive him, never. When God created Adam and Eve, they were created after God's image and placed in a world with one simple commandment ~ plus, they did not have a sinful nature like you and I were born with, they were created upright and given all they needed to continue in that state, but when left to themselves they sinned immediately! Their sin was their own, God did not do one thing to cause them to sin. The same was true of Satan and his angels that sinned with him. What God did not do for them was to secured them from sinning, which he was not under obligation to do!
Again, do not add your private opinion of what I teach and believe without providing proof. That is being deceitful.
Again, do not speak for me, because you never speak according to the truth of what I believe and teach, never.
Paul thought that he had life before the commandment came to his heart with true understanding as to why God gave the law, and once the true understanding came through the new birth, he died to all hope that life was through commandment, which he had an active part in!
I got to go and do a grandfather's to do list for my wife.
Sir, we have just went over why I do not quote all of a chapter when I go to one to make a point. Actually all you did was to add more proof to what I did say, and thank you doing for doing so, you just saved me time from doing so, and also it helps me keeping my posit from being too long for the average reader to read.
John 1:13 is nothing more than the Spirit's commentary on John 1:10-12!
Well Studyman, I have said that to you many times over, that the new birth is by God alone without any means whatsoever other than God's power and will to do so. I tis you who reject this truth. not me, not @brightfame52, and a few others.
Red highlighted are mine for discussion.
Hold on, are you now saying you do not believe that God's children are not born of God alone? Studyman, I never said God withheld the power to receive him, never. When God created Adam and Eve, they were created after God's image and placed in a world with one simple commandment ~ plus, they did not have a sinful nature like you and I were born with, they were created upright and given all they needed to continue in that state, but when left to themselves they sinned immediately! Their sin was their own, God did not do one thing to cause them to sin. The same was true of Satan and his angels that sinned with him. What God did not do for them was to secured them from sinning, which he was not under obligation to do!
Again, do not add your private opinion of what I teach and believe without providing proof. That is being deceitful.
Studyman, have you ever consider that the person deceived is you? In spite of what you are saying, I'm not confine to a certain portion of the word of God, like you are and is easily to see based on your continuously using the same words in your post, over and over again, which I have pointed out to you many times before. If anyone on this forum has a religious philosophy they are promoting it would be the man from western Michigan named, Mr. Studyman. Yes, I do believe you do it in all sincerity, I would not question that part.
Hold on, I might have to take back what I just said, that you do it in all sincerity! Sir, how in the world can you honestly say that John (John 1:13) does not ruled out man's will 100%, as far as being born again; once one is born of God, then his new man's will does have the power to hear, believe, repent and follow God's commandment, but not until then, impossible according to the testimony of God's Spirit to us. You and others take certain commandments spoken to regenerate children of God and apply them to "all men" without an exception and indiscriminately, and just close your eyes to so many scriptures, like John 1:10-13. Now, sir, who is truly listening to other voices other than the Spirit of God? I know who.
Oh you sound just like these men:
You say you see and hear voices that are not of God and that even a man in his natural state can do the same without the new birth, so according to theses scriptures what does that say about you according to these scriptures?
Agreed, but only a man first born of God can do so and prove that he does believe by heeding those commands. It is as simple as that.
Romans 7:9
“For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.”Again, do not speak for me, because you never speak according to the truth of what I believe and teach, never.
Paul thought that he had life before the commandment came to his heart with true understanding as to why God gave the law, and once the true understanding came through the new birth, he died to all hope that life was through commandment, which he had an active part in!
I got to go and do a grandfather's to do list for my wife.
@Red Baker, your entire soteriology is built upon God's withholding the power to receive Him. That is Total Depravity,
brightfame52
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
That means that God prevents all unregenerate from doing spiritual acts, which forces them to do only unspiritual acts. You don't even understand the very teaching that drives your entire false gospel.
@Studyman
Not angry, very seldom ever I'm I angry. I only want you be be honest when saying what I do believe or do not believe ~All I'm asking you to do is quote my actual words and then show me with scriptures what I saying against them , etc.
You adding scriptures to my quotes as though I'm only using one, or so out of context, proves nothing. Studyman, I could use the words of CHrist to the Pharisees where he only quoted maybe half of verse to get his point across, but you would find fault with him as well, to make others think that you are a man of the word of God and you use all of the scriptures, when many times you do nothing more than to add confusion to confusion, or in some places you add more support when we are only trying to saved time and space, as I pointed out above in my last post to you.
Before God, I have never avoided not answering your questions, and I always discuss anything in particular that you desire to discuss, as long as we have not covered it already many times over.
Like you have? No thank you.
brightfame52
Active Member
They dead spiritually because of sin. God is not obligated to give man new life. If Jesus chose not to give Lazarus life from the dead, did He do him wrong ? Did he force Lazarus to stay dead ?
For a natural man to do unspiritual acts is natural for him to do, he isnt forced to be a natural man, he came out his mothers womb that way. It just so happens a natural man isnt a spiritual man, he is a natural man
So often so many try to carry the effects of the physically dead over to the effects of the spiritually dead. That is wholly inappropriate.
When God said do this or that and one does this or that as god commanded, is that an unspiritual act? Of course not. Once again in your Calvinism you have redefined the biblical to support your unbiblical religion.
In point of fact, as Paul relates in Romans 7 for a spiritual man to do unspiritual acts is natural for him to do. And no, he did not come out of his mother's womb that way. He came out of his mother's womb with a spirit given him by God. Are you so hateful as to think God gave him a spirit dead in sin? I would hope not, but I fear that is your unbiblical religion and sadly an Augustinian false view of God.
