We Got Zephaniah 1 Wrong

[mikesw]

More can be argued against the idea of finding the global nations being represented in Zeph 1

I think the aspect missed here is that Zeph 2 ( #zephaniah2 ) elaborates on the use of "man" and "face of the land" in Zeph 1 ( #zephaniah1). The idea is that the "chapters" build on each other to provide detail for ideas that were vague. A reasonably clear fashion for establishing the scope of the "face of the land" is in Zeph 2:3-9. There is a listing of nations here that had been troublesome to Judah. It seems unreasonable to

Zephaniah 2:3–9 (ESV)
3 Seek the LORD, all you humble of the land, who do his just commands; seek righteousness; seek humility; perhaps you may be hidden on the day of the anger of the LORD.
4 For Gaza shall be deserted, and Ashkelon shall become a desolation; Ashdod’s people shall be driven out at noon, and Ekron shall be uprooted.
5 Woe to you inhabitants of the seacoast, you nation of the Cherethites! The word of the LORD is against you, O Canaan, land of the Philistines; and I will destroy you until no inhabitant is left.
6 And you, O seacoast, shall be pastures, with meadows for shepherds and folds for flocks.
7 The seacoast shall become the possession of the remnant of the house of Judah, on which they shall graze, and in the houses of Ashkelon they shall lie down at evening. For the LORD their God will be mindful of them and restore their fortunes.
8 “I have heard the taunts of Moab and the revilings of the Ammonites, how they have taunted my people and made boasts against their territory.
9 Therefore, as I live,” declares the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, “Moab shall become like Sodom, and the Ammonites like Gomorrah, a land possessed by nettles and salt pits, and a waste forever. The remnant of my people shall plunder them, and the survivors of my nation shall possess them.”

The remnant concept also came into fulfillment per Romans 9:27-29, which indicates Isa 10:20-22 as fulfilled.

 

[TomL]

Okay. so the Beatles were anticipating Jude making Elton John's Sad Songs better. But this thread is supposed to be about Zephaniah's anticipation of judgment. So we are kind of straying from the initial topic. Is that happening because it is Sunday today?

Sunday, Sunday can't trust that day. Sunday morning it just turned out that way.

All right I know its monday, monday etc

 

[mikesw]

Sunday, Sunday can't trust that day. Sunday morning it just turned out that way.

All right I know its monday, monday etc

Ok. so you recognized that Zephaniah really wrote that song. He wrote Zeph 1 on a monday then Zeph 2 when he felt better.

 

[TomL]

Ok. so you recognized that Zephaniah really wrote that song. He wrote Zeph 1 on a monday then Zeph 2 when he felt better.

ok

 

[mikesw]

sorry peeps. Post #21 had a sentence left incomplete. Here is the text preceding it and the incomplete sentence

here is a listing of nations here that had been troublesome to Judah. It seems unreasonable to

I figure I was going to say: It seems unreasonable to interpret the nations of Zeph 1 as a separate global topic that is not explained ... and especially when a narrow set of nations seem to explain the idea in Zeph 2.

One thing that seems apparent is that few people examine in any depth the shorter prophet writings. I would speculate that commentators often would be invited to write on these prophets without having particular expertise with them. Even the major prophets are read less than the New Testament writings. So there is generally shallower study than may be needed. Also, of special concern, Isaiah is very long and complex with all of its metaphors, hyperbole and symbolism. As such, detail gets overlooked concerning the continuity of topics and themes across scripture. Or, as seen with Zephaniah 1, the use of "earth" is not corrected to say "land," as would be better justified. Almost every instance of "earth" should be evaluated in light of the possible bad translation.

 

[mikesw]

Jude 14–16 (UASV) — 14 It was also about these men that Enoch, the seventh one in line from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Look, the Lord came with tens of thousands of his holy ones, 15 to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they did in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These men are murmurers, finding fault, following their own desires, and their mouths make excessive boasts, flattering people for their own advantage.

I had figured your post to be confirming that 1 Enoch had been recognized by at least one writer in the New Testament. I suppose though that you could be referring to this text as an argument per chance about a global judgment. That may not quite fit Jude's context. He appears to use the text to affirm a judgment of those who had broken off from the Christian fellowship.

Jude 4 (ESV) For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ

Jude seems to venture on to a thin branch. Then the mention of 1 Enoch is sort of a reaching out to a thinner branch. His quote of Enoch may just reflect that people were giving attention to the Book of Enoch such that Jude could quote that to the recipients. We don't know the full attitude of Jude toward the Book of Enoch -- we mostly just see that he saw a use for it. There could be a degree of similarity to Balaam, who was not quite trustworthy but then oddly spoke correct prophecy; I'm just saying there can be that ambiguity in Enoch. (I speak mostly based on impressions, not having studied Enoch.)

Anyhow the observation about the changing of Jewish understanding of "earth" vs "land" still applies.

 

[TomL]

I had figured your post to be confirming that 1 Enoch had been recognized by at least one writer in the New Testament. I suppose though that you could be referring to this text as an argument per chance about a global judgment. That may not quite fit Jude's context. He appears to use the text to affirm a judgment of those who had broken off from the Christian fellowship.

jAdding some information to the discussion it does sound like a global judgment, but then multiple events seem that way

 

[mikesw]

jAdding some information to the discussion it does sound like a global judgment, but then multiple events seem that way

Sure.
One of my reasons for posting this was to see if anyone recognized that Zechariah's context is surrounding Judah. I pointed that out with a bible study group but everyone else held to a global event despite what I shared. The obnoxious aspect of the bible study material was that they skipped past the verses of judgment against Judah. So that context was effectively removed from the discussions.

 

[TomL]

Sure.
One of my reasons for posting this was to see if anyone recognized that Zechariah's context is surrounding Judah. I pointed that out with a bible study group but everyone else held to a global event despite what I shared. The obnoxious aspect of the bible study material was that they skipped past the verses of judgment against Judah. So that context was effectively removed from the discussions.

Zech 2 definately

 

[mikesw]

Zech 2 definately

Many things should be consider for seeing a limited scope of earth/land and people/humanity in Zephaniah 1. The first is that this is that Zephaniah is a prophet addressing sins of the tribes of Israel. In this sense, Zeph 1:3 specifically puts the context in into that of Judah. Jesus clearly addressed the problems of Jerusalem and its leaders. Also, Judah/Jerusalem was destroyed in the first century. So what would bring the rest of the globe into scope for judgment after such a long delay after Jerusalem was destroyed?


(Yikes. If you see me type Zechariah anywhere on this thread, I somehow mixup between these names.)

 

[TomL]

Many things should be consider for seeing a limited scope of earth/land and people/humanity in Zephaniah 1. The first is that this is that Zephaniah is a prophet addressing sins of the tribes of Israel. In this sense, Zeph 1:3 specifically puts the context in into that of Judah. Jesus clearly addressed the problems of Jerusalem and its leaders. Also, Judah/Jerusalem was destroyed in the first century. So what would bring the rest of the globe into scope for judgment after such a long delay after Jerusalem was destroyed?


(Yikes. If you see me type Zechariah anywhere on this thread, I somehow mixup between these names.)

OK

 

[mikesw]

OK

Sure. I'm getting a sense of where people are at in their thinking. I know I have thrown of lot of stuff into my previous post. No problem.

 

[mikesw]

I was listening to Steve Gregg's teaching on Zephaniah. He confirms the main point I was making, namely about Zeph 1 not be global but rather based around Judah. It is worth a listen. It also helps show me that I had figured some stuff correctly here.

 

[mikesw]

The big lesson to learn here is that both the Greek and the Hebrew have words that may be translated alternatively to land or earth (and even other options) but have improperly been assigned only to "earth." The NKJV is better with this for Zephaniah and may translate some other passages a little more carefully. The treatment as "land" will basically apply to any passage discussing Judah or Israel.

 

[koberstein]

The big lesson to learn here is that both the Greek and the Hebrew have words that may be translated alternatively to land or earth (and even other options) but have improperly been assigned only to "earth." The NKJV is better with this for Zephaniah and may translate some other passages a little more carefully. The treatment as "land" will basically apply to any passage discussing Judah or Israel.

Outline of Tz'fanyah (Zephaniah)
1. Judgment Day
A. Judgment upon the earth 1:1-3
B. Judgment of nations 1:4-3:7
2. Day of Hope
A. All nations will worship God. 3:8-13
B. God reigns. 3:14-20

Shalom

 

[mikesw]

Outline of Tz'fanyah (Zephaniah)
1. Judgment Day
A. Judgment upon the earth 1:1-3
B. Judgment of nations 1:4-3:7
2. Day of Hope
A. All nations will worship God. 3:8-13
B. God reigns. 3:14-20

Shalom

You have tried to restore terms that were misapplied -- like earth instead of land (and implied humanity instead of people of that land). It hardly makes sense to apply chapter 1 to the whole earth suffering for the sin of Judah. That happened probably the time of Babylon exile.

Chapter 2 describes the judgment of Jerusalem in AD 66-70 precisely. Also the surrounding nations were judged for their idolatry and attacks on God's people (despite Israel's needing that discipline). It was only the righteous remnant in Christ that was saved (2:9). The only way that remnant was able possess the Moab and the Ammonites is by reigning in Christ from the heavens.

Then Zech 3:1-7 describes the Pharisees and Jerusalem of that era very clearly. There are no other places to declare they don't trust the Lord ( 3:2). (It would have been senseless to say Moabites don't trust the Lord since there was no reason to think they would.) I'm not sure how one can escape that association with the accounts shared of Jesus by Matthew.

 

[TomL]

You have tried to restore terms that were misapplied -- like earth instead of land (and implied humanity instead of people of that land). It hardly makes sense to apply chapter 1 to the whole earth suffering for the sin of Judah. That happened probably the time of Babylon exile.

Chapter 2 describes the judgment of Jerusalem in AD 66-70 precisely. Also the surrounding nations were judged for their idolatry and attacks on God's people (despite Israel's needing that discipline). It was only the righteous remnant in Christ that was saved (2:9). The only way that remnant was able possess the Moab and the Ammonites is by reigning in Christ from the heavens.

Then Zech 3:1-7 describes the Pharisees and Jerusalem of that era very clearly. There are no other places to declare they don't trust the Lord ( 3:2). (It would have been senseless to say Moabites don't trust the Lord since there was no reason to think they would.) I'm not sure how one can escape that association with the accounts shared of Jesus by Matthew.

You mean Zephaniah?

 

[mikesw]

You mean Zephaniah?

Sure. I usually catch that. The names get mixed up under my fingers.

 

[TomL]

Sure. I usually catch that. The names get mixed up under my fingers.

ok