Trinitarian Training

[dwight92070]

If you want to believe that the Lord Jesus asked his disciples to steal, i.e. sin go for it. And since you believe Jesus is God - it makes it even worse!

I never said I believed that. I said that if Jesus is only a man, then that's what it amounts to - Jesus asking His disciples to steal. But you know that I do NOT believe that Jesus is only a man - He is God in the flesh. Therefore God in the flesh can ask His disciples to take anything that He wants in this world, because it all belongs to Him - and that would NOT be stealing. So here you are twisting what I am saying.

Who told Peter who Jesus was?
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
Because the Holy Spirit, the power of the Most High would cause Mary to conceive is the reason why the child would be called holy---the Son of God.
Jesus is called the 'Spirit' AFTER his resurrection when he became a life giving spirit. . . . Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. [1 Cor. 15:45]
The first Adam - a mortal human being; the second Adam, a mortal human being who died, whom God raised from the dead and became immortal - a life-giving spirit.

So I don't see your point here.

Jesus equated Himself with the Father AND with the Holy Spirit even BEFORE His death and resurrection.

"I and the Father are One." He made Himself equal with God (the Father). John 5:18

First He says that the Father will send the Spirit of truth - ANOTHER helper. John 14:16-17 (i.e. when He leaves)
But in the very next verse, verse 18, He says: "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you." Basically He is saying that HE IS THE HOLY SPIRIT.

 

[amazing grace]

If you can figure out when the High Priest died, you will have the time reference

well, since I believe the 'coming in the clouds' referenced is when Christ returns and no one knows the day or hour I won't have a time reference. Thanks for your own opinion though.

it is just Paul's obligation to gentiles, not a dispensation.

Scripture says dispensation, some use the word administration --- I stick with that.

Some people use that provocative language. However, I do not deny the divinity of Christ he God from his Father. duh

Yeah, yeah . . God from God. . . . Mary the mother of God ---- Mary changed God's diapers, yeah. Joseph and Mary disciplined God, yeah. Making Jesus NOTHING like his brothers . . .

 

[amazing grace]

I never said I believed that. I said that if Jesus is only a man, then that's what it amounts to - Jesus asking His disciples to steal. But you know that I do NOT believe that Jesus is only a man - He is God in the flesh. Therefore God in the flesh can ask His disciples to take anything that He wants in this world, because it all belongs to Him - and that would NOT be stealing. So here you are twisting what I am saying.

But Jesus was a man - he, himself said he was himself and scripture repeatedly calls him a man . . . .

It's even worse since you think he was God because since you INSIST that the disciples were stealing and 'God' told them to go get the colt ---- now we have God telling them to steal, aka sin.

So I don't see your point here.

Your response to Matthew 16:15-17 (Post 443)

That proves no such thing. The Word who was God became flesh in Jesus, who Gabriel called the Son of God. So He was both God AND the Son of God. By the way, Jesus was and is also the Spirit of God. 2 Corinthian 3:17 "Now the Lord is the Spirit, ..."

There you go - we have the Trinity!

Jesus is called the 'Spirit' AFTER his resurrection when he became a life giving spirit. . . . Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. [1 Cor. 15:45]
The first Adam - a mortal human being; the second Adam, a mortal human being who died, whom God raised from the dead and became immortal - a life-giving spirit.

The point that you don't see here: Your claim of Jesus being the Spirit of God - FALSE!
Jesus was raised a life-giving spirit as noted in 1 Cor. 15 and 'Now the Lord (Jesus) is the Spirit' is a reference to the spirit of Christ NOT the Spirit of God.

Jesus equated Himself with the Father AND with the Holy Spirit even BEFORE His death and resurrection.
"I and the Father are One." He made Himself equal with God (the Father). John 5:18

Jesus did not count himself as an equal to God his Father. 'the Son can do nothing of his own accord,' . . . “I can do nothing on my own.

I and the Father are One is in the context of caring for the sheep. [John 10: 28-30] . . I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than ALL and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I am the Father are One . . . one in purpose, one in caring for the sheep.

Jesus did not make any claim to being equal with God . . . He called God his Father and the unbelieving Jews ACCUSED him of making himself equal with God.
BTW when you make a statement about 'God' you do not have to further identify him in parenthesis as the Father . . . . To me that is simply who God is . . . . so when I read 'God', I don't read or think 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit' - I simply think of the Father as the only true God!

First He says that the Father will send the Spirit of truth - ANOTHER helper. John 14:16-17 (i.e. when He leaves)
But in the very next verse, verse 18, He says: "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you." Basically He is saying that HE IS THE HOLY SPIRIT.

No Jesus is not claiming to be the Holy Spirit -

 

[mikesw]

well, since I believe the 'coming in the clouds' referenced is when Christ returns and no one knows the day or hour I won't have a time reference. Thanks for your own opinion though.

Uh. after things happen, the day and hour are roughly known inasmuch as they are properly

Scripture says dispensation, some use the word administration --- I stick with that.

k. some people make that a central word in part of their doctrine.

Yeah, yeah . . God from God. . . . Mary the mother of God ---- Mary changed God's diapers, yeah. Joseph and Mary disciplined God, yeah. Making Jesus NOTHING like his brothers . . .

You like to mock things. Indeed Jesus lived as a baby and required care. It is rather speculative how his development was similar to any other baby. Like or not, Jesus as a man experienced the same things as his brothers and other people.

 

[amazing grace]

Uh. after things happen, the day and hour are roughly known inasmuch as they are properly

k. some people make that a central word in part of their doctrine.

You like to mock things. Indeed Jesus lived as a baby and required care. It is rather speculative how his development was similar to any other baby. Like or not, Jesus as a man experienced the same things as his brothers and other people.

I mock things that aren't true and actually are ridiculous and illogical. The premise is Jesus is God, therefore God had to be conceived, born and live as a baby, etc. Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man. . . . is that also applicable to God? (I know ---- nope, it's only applicable to the human nature in Jesus not to the divine nature in Jesus or else we would have God growing in favor with himself. . )

In order to experience things as a man and be made like his brothers Jesus had to be a 100% human being - not 100% man/100% God which is definitely NOT like his brothers.

 

[mikesw]

I mock things that aren't true and actually are ridiculous and illogical. The premise is Jesus is God, therefore God had to be conceived, born and live as a baby, etc. Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man. . . . is that also applicable to God? (I know ---- nope, it's only applicable to the human nature in Jesus not to the divine nature in Jesus or else we would have God growing in favor with himself. . )

Wow. You reject that the Son, as human and divine, would not grow in favor with the Father. That is dehumanizing the whole situation.

In order to experience things as a man and be made like his brothers Jesus had to be a 100% human being - not 100% man/100% God which is definitely NOT like his brothers.

I despise when people explain away scripture to their own understanding instead of what the scriptures convey. You say it is impossible, but with God all things are possible. You are denying what God has done here. You restrict it to the extent you can imagine God's operations.

 

[dwight92070]

But Jesus was a man - he, himself said he was himself and scripture repeatedly calls him a man . . . .

Isaiah said His name would be called " Mighty God, Eternal Father". Matthew said His name was "God with us". Jesus said, "I and the Father are One." and "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father." John said He "was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God". Thomas said, "My Lord and my God."

It's even worse since you think he was God because since you INSIST that the disciples were stealing and 'God' told them to go get the colt ---- now we have God telling them to steal, aka sin.

You either can't comprehend what I said, or you are deliberately pretending that I said something else. I'll try again. IF, get that, IF Jesus was only a man and NOT GOD, like you believe - then for him to tell his disciples to TAKE a total stranger's colt WOULD BE STEALING, on his part and on his disciple's part. They both would be guilty of thievery.

ON THE OTHER HAND, if Jesus was God in the flesh, like I believe - then for Him to tell His disciples to take a total stranger's colt would NOT BE STEALING, BECAUSE GOD OWNS EVERYTHING. Of course the owners did not understand that - they thought the disciples were stealing from them, but God supernaturally put it in their hearts to allow the disciples to take the colt.

If you still cannot understand what I'm saying, it's because you don't want to - it's a tactic you're using to find some fault with what I said.

The bottom line is: if you insist that Jesus is NOT God, then "Your Jesus", in this incident, IS A THIEF. MY JESUS, who IS GOD, owns everything on earth, so He was NOT committing robbery, when He asked for the colt.

Your response to Matthew 16:15-17 (Post 443)


The point that you don't see here: Your claim of Jesus being the Spirit of God - FALSE!

Then was Paul mistaken in 2 Corinthians 3:17, where he says: "Now the Lord (Jesus) IS THE SPIRIT, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty"?

Jesus was raised a life-giving spirit as noted in 1 Cor. 15 and 'Now the Lord (Jesus) is the Spirit' is a reference to the spirit of Christ NOT the Spirit of God.

Jesus did not count himself as an equal to God his Father. 'the Son can do nothing of his own accord,' . . . “I can do nothing on my own.

John said that He did: John 5:18 He "was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

I and the Father are One is in the context of caring for the sheep. [John 10: 28-30] . . I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than ALL and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I am the Father are One . . . one in purpose, one in caring for the sheep.

Temporarily, while Jesus "emptied Himself" of SOME of His divine attributes, the Father was greater than He was. Not now, however. All of His original attributes are His again.

Jesus did not make any claim to being equal with God . . . He called God his Father and the unbelieving Jews ACCUSED him of making himself equal with God.
BTW when you make a statement about 'God' you do not have to further identify him in parenthesis as the Father . . . . To me that is simply who God is . . . . so when I read 'God', I don't read or think 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit' - I simply think of the Father as the only true God!

No Jesus is not claiming to be the Holy Spirit -

On the contrary, when I read or think "God", I DO THINK 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit' because that's who God is.

 

[Bobby Walker]

Jesus is both God and man. Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary. Jesus became a human being in order to identify with us in our struggles and, more importantly, so that He could die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus is both God and man. Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary. Jesus became a human being in order to identify with us in our struggles and, more importantly, so that He could die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins.

Question, since God can't die and we have you on record stating Jesus is "God and man" then who or what is your sin sacrifice?

 

[amazing grace]

Wow. You reject that the Son, as human and divine, would not grow in favor with the Father. That is dehumanizing the whole situation.

Nope at all not what I said . . .

I despise when people explain away scripture to their own understanding instead of what the scriptures convey.

ditto . . .

You say it is impossible, but with God all things are possible. You are denying what God has done here. You restrict it to the extent you can imagine God's operations.

Yes, God can accomplish the impossible and in the context of that verse he had caused Zacharias' wife, Elizabeth, who was barren to conceive.

In order to experience things as a man and be made like his brothers, Jesus had to be a 100% human being - not 100% man/100% God which is definitely NOT like his brothers. . . . I am denying that God became a man.

 

[mikesw]

Nope at all not what I said . . .

ditto . . .

Yes, God can accomplish the impossible and in the context of that verse he had caused Zacharias' wife, Elizabeth, who was barren to conceive.

In order to experience things as a man and be made like his brothers, Jesus had to be a 100% human being - not 100% man/100% God which is definitely NOT like his brothers. . . . I am denying that God became a man.

You are denying that Jesus was born of God continuing his divinity having been sent from heaven to reconcile humanity with God.