Runningman
Active Member
Your argument seems to pivot around the concept of being sent. Many are sent by God in the Bible. What's your point exactly?
Trinitarian Training
- Thread starter praise_yeshua
- Start date
You are recycling old stale arguments and conflating the points in 1 John 1 with John 1. Maybe I can find some principles of exegesis to help you avoid the same mistakes.
You can do a search on the Word of God coming to the prophets. This answers your question. There is some ambiguity whether this is specifically Jesus but you cannot deny the text of the scripture. I hope you are just pleading your ignorance in denying that all things were created through the Son.
A good idea is that I'm just sharing scripture and not interested in bowling pins. If you want to deny John 1, knock yourself out but don't try sharing that denial with others. If you were right about Jesus being a different god, your argument would almost have some logic to it. You miss that Jesus is of that one and only true God. But you still have doubt because you reject that.
Okay. share the next fallacy that you follow.
Last edited:
I guess the point is that your failure to get the point is a problem of your errors in interpreting scripture. Try reading the parable in Luke 20:9ff again. Oops. I forget. You cannnot understand analogies.
Runningman
Active Member
So 1 John 1:1-3 is a mistake? I am not making an argument but telling you what John wrote about the Word. He is the only one who ever mentioned the Word in such a way, never repeated by anyone else in all of Scripture. He wrote primarily 3 things about the Word. The first one in John 1:1 where John pointed out that the Word is not The God. John 1:2,3 where God used the Word to create Jesus in John 1:14, hence the Word became flesh. In the Bible God creates using spoken words. Words aren't people. God isn't a Word.
Next, apostle John practically bent over backwards and shouted in his audiences' ears at the top of his lungs that the Word is a thing. God isn't a person and also a thing, hence John explicitly called the Word eternal life in 1 John 1:1-3. Eternal life is something someone has or something someone receives, it's immortality, not a God.
No idea what you're talking about. The word of the Lord is is about God speaking using words, just like exactly how it sounds. It is not presented as a person but rather a message from God.
You aren't just sharing Scripture unless your idea of "Scripture" is something from you trinitarian handbook. You keep saying God incarnated and you are going in circles with no evidence. Where does the Bible say God incarnated? I keep asking because I want you to eventually fess up that it doesn't exist. After you admit defeat on that, we can work through sorting out the rest of your messy theology.
Runningman
Active Member
The parable of the prodigal son also has a son of God who was a sinner. Are you saying anyone who is God's son is God?
You never learn. The focus topic is not Christ becoming incarnate in 1 John 1. You put scripture into a blender until it makes no sense. I keep recommending that you study exegesis, but that may not even help overcome your bias against its meaning. I will repeat for those hard of heart that the topic of 1 John 1 is the focus on life -- the scripture or message about life. It is not focused on the Word as the person of Christ.
You make the fatal mistake of assuming a "word" automatically centers around the same topic. You have the tail wagging the dog. Pure nonsense of interpretation there.
I cannot believe you cannot comprehend these things. John 1:18 shows the divinity of Christ right under your nose
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.
You cannot seem to accept scripture when it directly contradicts your view. You pretend these passages do not exist. That is not the proper way to interpret scripture. It makes a mockery of the unitarian view.
Indeed the Word came speaking to us and is recorded in the gospels. He died on the cross. Your hyperliteralist, word-dictionary dependency prevents you from recognizing how Christ Jesus is the Word.
I have no need to address further weaknesses of unitarians to make it clear the many errors their interpretation process reflects
Wow. are you getting desperate to deny Christ? The prodigal son does not mention the Son of God. You are exceeding the bounds of decency in your ways of rejecting Christ. I hope this was just a mind fart that you did not catch in time because you were too tired when posting your idea.
Runningman
Active Member
Focus on the Bible instead of blaming me since this will be your best bet to understand the errors and inconsistencies in your argument. Your problem is you want to blame others when your arguments go south, don't do that.
Look, your premise is that because Luke 20:9ff has the owner of the vineyard sending his son so in your reasoning that must mean Jesus is God. Okay, I am working with you here. The parable of the prodigal son contains the exact same concept of the boss having a real son who was a sinner. Being a son of God is not related to deity at all. Actually, the fact that the Bible calls Jesus the Son of God is a powerful argument against his deity at all. Since there are many sons of God and they aren't God then neither is Jesus.
Runningman
Active Member
Jesus didn't incarnate according to Scripture. This isn't an argument. I am not apostle John and I didn't write these letters. He flat out said the Word is a thing and that it is eternal life. John didn't believe the Word is God, not in the way you all say. Acts 4:23-31 is a clear example of John not believing Jesus is God as well.
Look at it this way. Would you call God a "that, which, this, it?" If the Word is God and God isn't a thing, then what John said would be blasphemy.
1John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.
3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ.
Let's see if we can get through to you at all again.
Is the Word eternal life?
Is eternal life a thing?
So you are saying Jesus is a thing? I suppose we can go with the sense that a person is a thing.
Again you conflate the topic of John1 with a different topic of 1 JOhn 1 where the latter is speaking more narrowly about the topic of life. I'm not sure how you can fix your wrong programming.
It is great you introduce Act 4:31 referring to the Holy Spirit filling them. So you do quote passages with the 3rd person of the Trinity. You cannot avoid those very easily. I'm not sure why you say they did not believe in God and the divine Son in the Godhead. You kind of toss passages around that conflict with your view and say the opposite of what you want those to say.
Thanks for again confirming that 1 Joh 1 is focused on eternal life as distinct from John 1 which focuses on the Word as Jesus. You quote good scriptures but you miss what they say. that is okay for a beginner reader of scripture though.
I thought we dispelled your horrible association here. Again you make the rookie mistake of interpreting "son" as transferring "Son of God" to the parable of the prodigal son. That is really bad since there is no sense of "son of God" here plus this is not about Jesus. I think even you yourself are not inclined to say Jesus fell away. You do not seem to go that far in denying who Jesus is. You fall too far into atheist territory though. But thanks for showing more of unitarian disbelief here.
Runningman
Active Member
Read 1John 1:1-3 again.
1John 1:1 - "That which... which... which... which... this is the Word of Life"
1John 1:2 - "This is the life that was revealed... it... it... the eternal life that was with the Father was revealed to us"
John is talking about a thing. Which is why he is using non-personal pronouns to talk about the Word and saying the Word is eternal life that was revealed to them. The Word was given to Jesus and revealed by Jesus. The Word is eternal life, it's a thing.
Runningman
Active Member
The point is you have a bad hermeneutical issue. You can't just make up random exceptions to say Jesus is God just because he is a son of God like so many others.
You have something correct. The word used here is strictly the message or gospel that brings life. We can give you some credit for getting one point correct. Your error still remains in your effort to force John 1 to say the share the same point when it is talking about the Word as Jesus directly. Maybe you will catch on to that the hundredth repeat of the same fact.
You might as well be a Mormon if you are claiming there are many gods equal to the Father. We saw your abuse of the prodigal son parable. We see your dismissal of John 1:18 that says Jesus is God more explicitly for those who miss it in John 1:1-14. You have not accounted for your neglect of Thomas identifying Jesus as God. Too many missteps on your part.
Here is one of the passages where the Word is identified as the Lord God
Genesis 15:1–5 (ESV)
1After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.”
2But Abram said, “O Lord GOD, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?”
3And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir.”
4And behold, the word of the LORD came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.”
5And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
Here is another opportunity for the unitarian to deny scripture testimony.
Genesis 15:1–5 (ESV)
1After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.”
2But Abram said, “O Lord GOD, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?”
3And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir.”
4And behold, the word of the LORD came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.”
5And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
Here is another opportunity for the unitarian to deny scripture testimony.
Runningman
Active Member
No. The Word in 1John 1:1-3 is John writing about what the Word literally is and what John said about the Word in John 1 is poetic in Hebrew fashion and there is nothing to capitalize about it. John is writing based on the precedent that the word of God is personified in Hebrew poetry, but not a literal person.
The word of God personified in Hebrew poetry:
Psalm 33:6
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth.
Psalm 107:20
He sent out his word and healed them; he rescued them from the grave.
Psalm 147:15
He sends his command to the earth; his word runs swiftly.
The word of God has divine attributes, but is not God:
Isaiah 55:10-11
“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without watering the earth
And making it bear and sprout,
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God endures forever.”
Psalm 119:105
Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.
It would be extremely difficult to make your "the word is god" in a literal sense work. The entire body of Scripture about the word of God contradicts your premise. Not only is there 1John 1:1-3 that proves your theology about God as false, but when Jesus and the Word of God are used in close proximity of one another, they are not the same person or thing. They are entirely distinct.
Revelation 1:2
who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 1:9
I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance that are in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and my testimony about Jesus.
Revelation 20:4
Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Last edited:
Runningman
Active Member
John 1:1-14, 18 proves Jesus was created. There is no mention of an incarnation in the context, but rather a creation because he's a begotten son.
John 1:3
All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
Runningman
Active Member
The word of God refers to God's spoken words. No one agrees with you, either. No theologian or translator in their right mind will capitalize "word" in the Old Testament. The "Word" isn't actually a person, but rather God's spoken words in this context. God speaks and it happens, it's the same way He created the heavens and earth all alone.
Isaiah 55:11
So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
You do great denials.
