Title: So You Think Predestination Started When and With Whom?

[brightfame52]

No, he wasn't. He was an obedient servant of God.

Since Abram was the subject of blessing then the "families of the earth" would refer to his descendants from Ishmael, Isaac, and even Esau. Plus, after Sarah's death Abram had more children and they in turn through mating Abraham was indeed the father of many "nations" (and the word "nations" did not mean "Gentile.") By virtue of covenant and the promise of many descendants those who are the seed of Abraham were families of Abraham that were blessed.
It is a weak argument to claim "Gentiles" as "families of the earth" especially where God has already told Abraham that his seed will be as the stars in the heavens and the sand on the seashore.

The covenant is between God, Abram the Hebrew, and Abram's Hebrew seed. It is HIS SEED through which families of the earth would result in numbers too great to count.

It is a very weak argument to get "Gentiles" from "families of the earth" when the context is one man who is promised many families of and in the earth.

Abraham was Hebrew from the seed of Eber, his great-great-great-etc., grandfather. (Genesis 11.)

13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; Genesis 14:12–13.

God called Abram a Hebrew, NOT CHALDEEN.

It the Abrahamic Covenant from its first revelation to Abraham was international in scope and unconditional Gen 12:1-3

Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
All the families of the Earth is international
fulfilled Rev 5:9

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

[jeremiah1five]

It the Abrahamic Covenant from its first revelation to Abraham was international in scope and unconditional Gen 12:1-3

Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
All the families of the Earth is international
fulfilled Rev 5:9

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Your error is in taking "nations" and "families of the earth" as referring to non-Hebrews. The covenant is between God and Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13), and Abram's Hebrew seed through Isaac then Jacob and to Jacob's twelve sons. There also exists Ishmael and Esau, and after Sarah's death, Ketura, who born other children with Abram and in time became the fulfillment of those "families of the earth" along with the generations after the twelve sons of Jacob. Since God promised to make Abram's name great and to enlarge his seed as countless as the stars in the heavens and as countless as the sand on the seashore, it is only right that "families of the earth" refer to Abram's seed and the great many families that will come out of Abram through the various births to come into existence in his family. "Families of the earth" is only a natural extension of the seed of Abram that God multiplies on the earth and the blessings that will be upon them by virtue of being his seed. The subject is Abram. The context is his seed. And the realization is that in making his name great is accompanied by those families that will be born to him in time.

2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. Genesis 17:1–2.

4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. Genesis 17:4–5.

the above "have I made thee" is spoken in the past tense as though these families and nations already exist.

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Genesis 17:6.

"Nations" and "kings" do not refer to Gentiles for the declaration is that these "nations" and "kings" will be "of thee" and "come out of thee." These do not refer to Gentiles for Gentiles do not come from the loins of Abram. Non-Hebrew Gentiles cannot be born of two Hebrew parents. It is illogical and impossible. It's like saying that am Chinese can be born from two Spanish parents. Non-Hebrews were already in existence at the time of this covenant and they were born from Ham and Japheth.

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Genesis 17:7.

9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Genesis 17:9–11.

15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. 16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. Genesis 17:15–16.

"Shall be of her" again restricts this covenant as being between God, Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13), and Abram's Hebrew seed with Sarah who is also Hebrew. Two Hebrew parents cannot birth a non-Hebrew (Gentile) child. Impossible.

19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. Genesis 17:19.

20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. Genesis 17:20.

We begin to see the promise of "families of the earth" become identified through Ishmael who is mixed race but that he will birth twelve sons who are princes and later to be "kings" as promised by God above. "Nations" begin to come into view and these nations will be born of Ishmael through Ishamel and through his twelve sons who are identified as the "families of the earth" promised above.

21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, Genesis.17:21.

The "families of the earth" God promised to bless are already identified as generation of births through Ishmael and Isaac. From Isaac, Jacob is born and Jacob births twelve sons just as Ishmael. Already we see these "families of the earth" already being born of Abram's seed through Sarah and 24 heads of families between both Abram's sons: Isaac and Ishmael. These "families of the earth" are the seed of Abram, NOT Gentiles.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Rub what in? I am only responding to your positions with Scripture and reason to represent God from His Word.
Believe me, I don't gloat. I do not have a superior attitude complex at all. Those who are broken by God never do.

Yes you do.

You have us all on the road to Perdition because only you , of all on here and who knows where else, unless you are a messianic
jew as some are... have brow beat it into the minds that the gentiles are worth nothing because God made no covenant with them... and having done all of this blathering... you offer no help. no encouragement for those of us who may well be lost and without hope I AM REFERRING TO MYSELF .... NO ONE ELSE HERE.... and without hope... what should I do? Wallow in misery for the next decade or two until I leave this ball of mud for wherever or hasten it along because if I cannot change things for myself or help others to see what the blood of Jesus does.... I may as well say Ta.

You are the worst kind of blatherskite I have ever met.

You dont even debate as normal forum participant do about if there is heaven or hell, or predestined V free will, or when exactly is one born again. It is all about the covenant of God and the people who were not gentiles.

AND NEVER ONCE DID YOU EVEN COMMENT IN MY 3 REPLIES TO YOU THAT I SAID YOU ARE CORRECT.. YOU JUST RAN ON WITH YOUR DIATRIBE THAT YOU SEEMINGLY HAVE ON A LOOP.

Sd dont you dare tell me you dont rub it in when you most certainly do because you have finally rubbed me the wrong
way.

Good bye

 

[brightfame52]

@jeremiah1five

Your error is in taking "nations" and "families of the earth" as referring to non-Hebrews.

No thats your error in not accepting that its inclusive of all races, Rev 7 9

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 

[jeremiah1five]

Yes you do.

You have us all on the road to Perdition because only you , of all on here and who knows where else, unless you are a messianic
jew as some are... have brow beat it into the minds that the gentiles are worth nothing because God made no covenant with them...

Read it for yourself:

17 All nations before him are as nothing;
And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isaiah 40:17.

Can you repeat this? Can you agree with God and say the same thing or will you oppose God and complain it doesn't say what it says?

and having done all of this blathering... you offer no help. no encouragement for those of us who may well be lost and without hope I AM REFERRING TO MYSELF .... NO ONE ELSE HERE.... and without hope... what should I do? Wallow in misery for the next decade or two until I leave this ball of mud for wherever or hasten it along because if I cannot change things for myself or help others to see what the blood of Jesus does.... I may as well say Ta.

That is up to you as to how you choose to respond to God's Word.

You are the worst kind of blatherskite I have ever met.

You dont even debate as normal forum participant do about if there is heaven or hell, or predestined V free will, or when exactly is one born again. It is all about the covenant of God and the people who were not gentiles.

There is a heaven, three of them; there is predestination and there is no free will.
A person is born-again when the Holy Spirit of Promise invades a person's being.
There are several covenants in Scripture, individual and national. But in my study, I find no covenant between God and non-Hebrews. Have you found one? If so, what is that Gentile's name, where is it in Scripture so I can read it, and what are its terms?

AND NEVER ONCE DID YOU EVEN COMMENT IN MY 3 REPLIES TO YOU THAT I SAID YOU ARE CORRECT.. YOU JUST RAN ON WITH YOUR DIATRIBE THAT YOU SEEMINGLY HAVE ON A LOOP.

Sd dont you dare tell me you dont rub it in when you most certainly do because you have finally rubbed me the wrong
way.

Good bye

Sensitive. God raises true believers with a spine. We are not amoeba.

 

[jeremiah1five]

@jeremiah1five



No thats your error in not accepting that its inclusive of all races, Rev 7 9

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Really. So, God makes a covenant with Abram, but the blessings of covenant do not belong to him nor to his seed/descendants? God makes covenant with Abraham but its Gentiule families of the earth that will receive his blessings of covenant?
Sure, that makes sense.

Here. You quote it but miss the meaning.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Revelation 7:2–10.

This part of the prophecy concerns the twelve tribes of Jacob. And due to God scattering the twelve tribes throughout the world and into Gentile lands He calls them OUT OF THOSE PLACES and brings them back once again into their own land. And notice John, a Jew, claiming as a Jew that God is OUR God. And He is correct. God gathers His people from out of the places He scattered them.


10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations,
And declare it in the isles afar off, and say,
He that scattered Israel will gather him,
And keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
11 For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob,
And ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.
12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion,
And shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD,
Jeremiah 31:10–12.

God never says such things to or about Gentiles. God doesn't call Gentiles His flock and He is their shepherd. Why is that? That's because God made no covenant with Gentiles. None.

Look at what I found that helps us understand Revelation 7:9.

16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. 22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and fa new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Ezekiel 36:16–28.

So, God scattered Israel among the Gentile nations and now He is gathering them all back to Himself for His names' sake. So, the God of Israel is gathering His people OUT OF every nation, kindred, people and tongues, back into Israel, the Land God promised Abraham.

Not only that God also says He's going to put His Spirit within the hearts of Israel and cause them to walk in His statues and they shall keep His judgments, and they shall dwell in their own land and He will be their God and they shall be His people.

There is nothing in the Bible that God says this of Gentiles.
Want to know why?
Because to God the Gentile nations are NOTHING to Him, they are vanity!

17 All nations before him are as nothing;
And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isaiah 40:17.

Nada.

 

[brightfame52]

Really. So, God makes a covenant with Abram, but the blessings of covenant do not belong to him nor to his seed/descendants? God makes covenant with Abraham but its Gentiule families of the earth that will receive his blessings of covenant?
Sure, that makes sense.

Here. You quote it but miss the meaning.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Revelation 7:2–10.

This part of the prophecy concerns the twelve tribes of Jacob. And due to God scattering the twelve tribes throughout the world and into Gentile lands He calls them OUT OF THOSE PLACES and brings them back once again into their own land. And notice John, a Jew, claiming as a Jew that God is OUR God. And He is correct. God gathers His people from out of the places He scattered them.


10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations,
And declare it in the isles afar off, and say,
He that scattered Israel will gather him,
And keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
11 For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob,
And ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.
12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion,
And shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD,
Jeremiah 31:10–12.

God never says such things to or about Gentiles. God doesn't call Gentiles His flock and He is their shepherd. Why is that? That's because God made no covenant with Gentiles. None.

Look at what I found that helps us understand Revelation 7:9.

16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. 22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and fa new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Ezekiel 36:16–28.

So, God scattered Israel among the Gentile nations and now He is gathering them all back to Himself for His names' sake. So, the God of Israel is gathering His people OUT OF every nation, kindred, people and tongues, back into Israel, the Land God promised Abraham.

Not only that God also says He's going to put His Spirit within the hearts of Israel and cause them to walk in His statues and they shall keep His judgments, and they shall dwell in their own land and He will be their God and they shall be His people.

There is nothing in the Bible that God says this of Gentiles.
Want to know why?
Because to God the Gentile nations are NOTHING to Him, they are vanity!

17 All nations before him are as nothing;
And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isaiah 40:17.

Nada.

Your error is trusting in the flesh