The Sum and Substance of all Theology
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Simple answer, The Father has given willing servants to Jesus Christ.
Exo 21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
This is what this life is about. To separate and prove the willingness of mankind to serve God.
Simple answer, The Father has given willing servants to Jesus Christ.
Exo 21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
This is what this life is about. To separate and prove the willingness of mankind to serve God.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
"I do not care to argue upon this point, except I put it thus: If any say, "It is man himself who makes the difference," I reply, "You are involving yourself in a great dilemma; if man himself makes the difference, then mark—man himself must have the glory." Now, I am certain you do not mean to give man the glory of his own salvation; you would not have men throw up their caps in heaven, and shout, "Unto ourselves be the glory, for we, ourselves, were the hinge and turning point of our own salvation." No, you would have all the saved cast their crowns at the feet of Jesus, and give to Him alone all the honour and all the glory. This, however, cannot be, unless, in that critical point, that diamond hinge upon which man's salvation shall turn, God shall have the control, and not the will of man."
"I said, "You all believe in the doctrine of Election?" "No, we don't, lad," said one. "Yes, you do, and I am going to preach it to you, and make you cry 'Hallelujah!' over it." I am certain they mistrusted my power to do that; so, turning a moment from the subject, I said, "Is there any difference between you and the ungodly world?" "Ay! Ay! Ay!" "Is there any difference between you and the drunkard, the harlot, the blasphemer?" "Ay! Ay! Ay!" Ay! there was a difference indeed. "Well, now," I said, "there is a great difference; who made it, then?" for, whoever made the difference, should have the glory of it. "Did you make the difference?" "No, lad," said one; and the rest all seemed to join in the chorus. "Who made the difference, then? Why, the Lord did it; and did you think it wrong for Him to make a difference between you and other men?" "No, no," they quickly said. "Very well, then; if it was not wrong for God to make the difference, it was not wrong for Him to purpose to make it, and that is the doctrine of Election." Then they cried, "Hallelujah!" as I said they would."
"I said, "You all believe in the doctrine of Election?" "No, we don't, lad," said one. "Yes, you do, and I am going to preach it to you, and make you cry 'Hallelujah!' over it." I am certain they mistrusted my power to do that; so, turning a moment from the subject, I said, "Is there any difference between you and the ungodly world?" "Ay! Ay! Ay!" "Is there any difference between you and the drunkard, the harlot, the blasphemer?" "Ay! Ay! Ay!" Ay! there was a difference indeed. "Well, now," I said, "there is a great difference; who made it, then?" for, whoever made the difference, should have the glory of it. "Did you make the difference?" "No, lad," said one; and the rest all seemed to join in the chorus. "Who made the difference, then? Why, the Lord did it; and did you think it wrong for Him to make a difference between you and other men?" "No, no," they quickly said. "Very well, then; if it was not wrong for God to make the difference, it was not wrong for Him to purpose to make it, and that is the doctrine of Election." Then they cried, "Hallelujah!" as I said they would."
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
What did Paul do here????
1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Paul made the difference. I suppose you should abandon the teaching of Paul.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Then give Paul the glory.
Whoops.
1 Cor 3:4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
No whoops. You're the one that insisted that Paul would have to glory. You're proving my point. He didn't.
Your position is logically inconsistent. Why do you not rightful recognize that you demanded that Paul boast?
PeanutGallery
Member
There's the problem; a humble person does not glory.
Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
civic
Well-known member
Amen !!!
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Look at the context of Spurgeon. He's talking about the hinge and turning point of salvation. No man is he, himself, the turning point of his own salvation, otherwise he would have something about which to boast and claim the glory. Paul denies that he's the hinge and turning point of anyone's salvation and give the glory to God. Hence you are misunderstanding your own quote.
civic
Well-known member
God draws and man believes. God doesn't believe for man- thats mans choice and decision to believe and trust in the gospel of Christ.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
No. Paul rightfully denies there is an glory to be had from his own actions. He is not denying his own MEANINGFUL actions.
You insist that if there is any meaningful input from men, then this requires boasting.
PeanutGallery
Member
Calvinism needs it to support TULIP.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Where did I say that? Like Spurgeon, I'm talking specifically about man being the hinge and turning point of his own salvation. Nothing else.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Paul said that he had "begotten them through the Gospel". I don't see how that does not qualify as a "turning point".
Spurgeon is actually ignoring the relationship of the Preacher of the Gospel in the relation an individual has to salvation. He is trying to exclude all the information.
I'm making the argument that meaningful means exist in producing salvation this is not a direct result of God's action in humanity.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
So you're saying God is not sovereign over the means. I disagree, but that's still not what Spurgeon or I am talking about.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
No. Nothing happens that God does not permit nor purpose. Sovereignty includes Patience and Longsuffering.
I disagree. Spurgeon is "word parsing" so as to leave out all pertinent information. The ole "Suppressed Evidence" fallacy. Restricting boasting only from an individual's own action is not properly dealing with the concept of "boasting". You know that Calvinism teaches that anything other than the direct action of God in salvation can be considered boasting based upon Calvinism's traditional attacks on "boasting".
Especially given the fact that Paul clearly said that HE HAD BEGOTTEN them. He just didn't say he preached the Gospel to them. He preached in a manner that PRODUCED their birth.
You have to admit, if any action we take should produce "boasting" then this would definitely qualify. Spurgeon created an unwarranted restriction based upon his own beliefs. A self serving restriction.
For consideration:
Everyone looks at the world through their own knothole.
We don’t see things as they are. We see them as we are.
The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas and without a commitment to definitions of reality is on the order of Paul's conversion in a bright light and hearing GOD's voice. Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse into previously accepted definitions.
