The State of the Dead
- Thread starter Jamie Russell CME
- Start date
Complete
Active Member
'We are confident, I say,
and willing rather
to be absent from the body,
and to be present with the Lord.'
(2Cor. 5:8)
Hello @Jamie Russell,
I confess to rushing through the listening of this YouTube link, but I gleaned enough to know that I was in agreement with what was being said within it concerning the state of the dead, re. 2 Corinthians 5:8. It is good to see someone entering on this subject.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
and willing rather
to be absent from the body,
and to be present with the Lord.'
(2Cor. 5:8)
Hello @Jamie Russell,
I confess to rushing through the listening of this YouTube link, but I gleaned enough to know that I was in agreement with what was being said within it concerning the state of the dead, re. 2 Corinthians 5:8. It is good to see someone entering on this subject.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Complete
Active Member
'But as touching the resurrection of the dead,
have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.'
( Mat 22:31- see also Mark 12:27 & Luke 20:38 )
Hello again, @Jamie Russell,
I came on to enter regarding the words, 'The God of the Living' (above), but found your thread, and thought I would incorporate what I wanted to say within it, for it concerns the state of the dead.
* In these scriptures it is stated that 'God is not the God of the dead, but of the living'. But Traditionists, believing that the 'dead' are 'the living', make God the 'God of the dead', which He distinctly says He is not. Interpreting the words in this way, they ignore the whole context, which shows that the words refer to the RESURRECTION, and not to the dead at all. Notice how this is emphasized in each Gospel:-
* 'Then come unto Him the Sadducees, which say there is no Resurrection' (Matt. 22:23; Mark 12:18; Luke 20:27).
The one issue raised by the Sadducees was the question, 'Whose wife shall she be in the Resurrection?' (Matt.22:28; Mark 12:23; Luke 20:33).
The answer of our Lord deals with this one issue, which was 'Resurrection'. He says:-
Matt. 22:- '... as touching the Resurrection of the dead' (v.31)
Mark 12:- '... as touching the dead that they Rise' (v.26)
Luke 20:- '... now that the dead are Raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he called the Lord, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, for He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live unto him;' (v.38).
* These words were spoken by the Lord Jesus in order to prove 'that the dead are Raised'. Traditionists use them to prove that the dead are 'living' without being Raised!
* The Sadducees may have denied many other things, but the one and only thing in question here is Resurrection. Christ's argument was:-
1) God's words at the bush prove a life for the dead patriarchs.
2) But there is no life for the dead without a resurrection.
3) Therefore they must be Raised From The Dead; or 'live again' by Him.
* This argument held good, for it silenced the Sadducees. For if they are 'living' now, and not dead, how does that prove a Resurrection?
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.'
( Mat 22:31- see also Mark 12:27 & Luke 20:38 )
Hello again, @Jamie Russell,
I came on to enter regarding the words, 'The God of the Living' (above), but found your thread, and thought I would incorporate what I wanted to say within it, for it concerns the state of the dead.
* In these scriptures it is stated that 'God is not the God of the dead, but of the living'. But Traditionists, believing that the 'dead' are 'the living', make God the 'God of the dead', which He distinctly says He is not. Interpreting the words in this way, they ignore the whole context, which shows that the words refer to the RESURRECTION, and not to the dead at all. Notice how this is emphasized in each Gospel:-
* 'Then come unto Him the Sadducees, which say there is no Resurrection' (Matt. 22:23; Mark 12:18; Luke 20:27).
The one issue raised by the Sadducees was the question, 'Whose wife shall she be in the Resurrection?' (Matt.22:28; Mark 12:23; Luke 20:33).
The answer of our Lord deals with this one issue, which was 'Resurrection'. He says:-
Matt. 22:- '... as touching the Resurrection of the dead' (v.31)
Mark 12:- '... as touching the dead that they Rise' (v.26)
Luke 20:- '... now that the dead are Raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he called the Lord, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, for He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live unto him;' (v.38).
* These words were spoken by the Lord Jesus in order to prove 'that the dead are Raised'. Traditionists use them to prove that the dead are 'living' without being Raised!
* The Sadducees may have denied many other things, but the one and only thing in question here is Resurrection. Christ's argument was:-
1) God's words at the bush prove a life for the dead patriarchs.
2) But there is no life for the dead without a resurrection.
3) Therefore they must be Raised From The Dead; or 'live again' by Him.
* This argument held good, for it silenced the Sadducees. For if they are 'living' now, and not dead, how does that prove a Resurrection?
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Blessed
Active Member
I can understand the mix-up, The Golden State has gotten quite tarnished. Not quite dead yet but on life support.
That's the reason for the mass Exodus from California. Not to mention all the businesses that are shutting down because of Big Brother.
Jamie Russell CME
Active Member
thanks Chris
Jamie Russell CME
Active Member
lol
Jamie Russell CME
Active Member
word
Jamie Russell CME
Active Member
I agree, good explanation
You beat me with this idea by 5 months.
Olde Tymer
Active Member
.
If there is any good thing that can be said about the netherworld: it's the great
equalizer. Political bullies like Kim Jong-Un, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Benito
Mussolini, Xi Jinping, Fidel Castro, Mao Zedong, Idi Amin, Muammar Gaddafi,
Robert Mugabe, Pol Pot, and Saddam Hussein, et al are powerless down below;
they're just another face in the crowd.
● Isa 14:9-10 . . Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you
come. It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth. It
raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones. They will all respond and say
to you: Even you have been made weak as we. You have become like us.
_
If there is any good thing that can be said about the netherworld: it's the great
equalizer. Political bullies like Kim Jong-Un, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Benito
Mussolini, Xi Jinping, Fidel Castro, Mao Zedong, Idi Amin, Muammar Gaddafi,
Robert Mugabe, Pol Pot, and Saddam Hussein, et al are powerless down below;
they're just another face in the crowd.
● Isa 14:9-10 . . Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you
come. It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth. It
raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones. They will all respond and say
to you: Even you have been made weak as we. You have become like us.
_
jeremiah1five
Active Member
So, what is its teaching? I understand being "absent from the body is to be present with the Lord", but how?
What is rabbi Saul saying here?
Mary Baker Eddy (among others) teach a "soul-sleep" which does not answer the question. No, instead, it means something else but not a soul that is sleeping. It is wide awake. There is no sleeping in the grave. Those that pass away are immediately at the last judgment along with those who are alive when the Lord returns. And there is no rapture, no being "caught up in the air to ever be with the Lord (in the air.)" There is no rapture whether pre-, mid-, or anything "in between." When the Lord comes, He comes in like manner as the disciples saw Him go up into (first) heaven.
"In like manner."
What is missing from this is the element of "time" and "eternity."
There is no passage of "time" for the dead. They only pass from the realm of "time" and into eternity when the person dies, when everyone who dies before the Lord's actual and final appearing. This is [the] "being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." A person who dies only passes from the realm of "time" and is translated into eternity.
This is where God resides, in Himself, in eternity. Nor is there any location (heaven) that is eternal. Only God is eternal. It is His nature and His glory, and He gives this glory to no man.
What is rabbi Saul saying here?
Mary Baker Eddy (among others) teach a "soul-sleep" which does not answer the question. No, instead, it means something else but not a soul that is sleeping. It is wide awake. There is no sleeping in the grave. Those that pass away are immediately at the last judgment along with those who are alive when the Lord returns. And there is no rapture, no being "caught up in the air to ever be with the Lord (in the air.)" There is no rapture whether pre-, mid-, or anything "in between." When the Lord comes, He comes in like manner as the disciples saw Him go up into (first) heaven.
"In like manner."
What is missing from this is the element of "time" and "eternity."
There is no passage of "time" for the dead. They only pass from the realm of "time" and into eternity when the person dies, when everyone who dies before the Lord's actual and final appearing. This is [the] "being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." A person who dies only passes from the realm of "time" and is translated into eternity.
This is where God resides, in Himself, in eternity. Nor is there any location (heaven) that is eternal. Only God is eternal. It is His nature and His glory, and He gives this glory to no man.
Matthew 22:32 (LEB) — 32 “I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob”? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living!”
If one believes scripture one must confess Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive in some sense
jeremiah1five
Active Member
It is hypocritical to give God over to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in one sentence and then give Him over to non-Hebrew Gentiles in the next sentence. That's called being dishonest with the HEBREW Scripture. It only suits their purpose when it suits their purpose instead of accepting what is written and come to the knowledge of the truth.
How is it you attempt to turn the topic about the state of the dead into a topic of your denial of the New covenant and the incorporation of the Gentiles into the peoples of God?
jeremiah1five
Active Member
I don't incorporate Gentiles into the "peoples of God" because God doesn't incorporate all peoples into the peoples of God.
God is dealing with ONE PEOPLE:
6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
Deuteronomy 7:6.
and that people are identified as the children of Israel - all thirteen tribes.
Israel possesses the covenants as says the Scripture. Gentiles got nothing coming to them of God.
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth
the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh
Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom. 9:4–5.
The above encapsulates everything having to do with redemption and salvation.
You don't but God did
Galatians 3:28 (LEB) — 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Saul uses "Greek" and not "Gentile" because his audience were Hebrews who grew up in Gentile lands heavily influenced by Greek culture.
His terminology and concepts were still Hebrew translated to a Greek-speaking audience. God made no covenant with Gentiles. That should be your first basis of interpretation.
The Abraham Covenant is between God, Abraham, and Abraham's seed.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Gen. 17:7.
The Mosaic Covenant is between God and the children of Israel.
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. Exodus 19:5–6.
The New Covenant is between God and the House of Israel (ten northern kingdom tribes), and the House of Judah (two southern kingdom tribes.)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jeremiah 31:31.
God made no covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles. There is no Scripture in all of the bible that teaches any covenant between God and Gentiles.
Um sorry but it is nonsense to imagine Paul simply contrasts Hebrews with Greek Hebrews
and contrary to context
Galatians 3:8–29 (LEB) — 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, proclaimed the good news in advance to Abraham: “In you all the nations will be blessed.” 9 So then, the ones who have faith are blessed together with Abraham who believed. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse, for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all the things that are written in the book of the law to do them.” 11 Now it is clear that no one is justified in the sight of God by the law, because “the one who is righteous will live by faith.” 12 But the law is not from faith, but “the one who does these things will live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,” 14 in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brothers, I am speaking according to a human perspective. Nevertheless, when the covenant of a man has been ratified, no one declares it invalid or adds additional provisions to it. 16 Now to Abraham and to his descendant the promises were spoken. It does not say, “and to descendants,” as concerning many, but as concerning one, “and to your descendant,” who is Christ. 17 Now I am saying this: the law, that came after four hundred and thirty years, does not revoke a covenant previously ratified by God, in order to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is from the law, it is no longer from the promise, but God graciously gave it to Abraham through the promise. 19 Why then the law? It was added on account of transgressions, until the descendant should come to whom it had been promised, having been ordered through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now the mediator is not for one, but God is one. 21 Therefore is the law opposed to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, certainly righteousness would have been from the law. 22 But the scripture imprisoned all under sin, in order that the promise could be given by faith in Jesus Christ to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were detained under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith was revealed. 24 So then, the law became our guardian until Christ, in order that we could be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are descendants of Abraham, heirs according to the promise.
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