What's so complicated? Revelation's introduction (Rev. 1:3) and conclusion (Rev. 22:10) both state that John's visions of the future were events that were "at hand" in his own days. That means you don't have to anticipate those disasters hanging over your head. You should be relieved.
The "secret" Rapture theory
- Thread starter Red Baker
- Start date
Victoria
Active Member
Amen!
I believe you're confusing being made "spiritually alive" (saved) w/ the future "glorified bodies" all believers will receive once caught up to meet the Lord in the air. We'll need them in order to operate in the heavens. Our bodies will be like unto His.
For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the
working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
(Philippians 3:20-21)
Red, the apostle John wasn't writing to us in Revelation, he was writing to Israel.
First bodily resurrection enters the kingdom on earth.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(Revelation 20:5-6)
Now, onto the second bodily resurrection.
Judgment at the Throne of God
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Revelation 20:11-15)
Revelation 21 talks about Israel. No mention of the Body of Christ b/c we'll be in the heavens.
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@Victoria
I was....but, it is true my grandmother was a Thomas. I was having a little fun.Oh, I thought you were being sarcastic in that reply to 3 R's.
I was just joking w/ you
There is only one elect body, not two, and Christ is the head of that one body. See #98 above, and I can add to it later today.
@Victoria
Secondly, I know the difference bewtween our new birth, which was indeed a resurrection from the dead by the same power that raised our Lord from the dead. I understand perfectly that the resurrection of our bodies will be on the last day, yet in the future, which will be the second resurrection.
Christ is the FIRST resurrection in the sense in which he was raised from the dead ~I said:
Frist, Victoria, there is not one book in the NT, written to Israel after the flesh, not one. You need to prove this with scriptures. You did not get this from searching the scriptures, you got this by blindly believing what someone told you without searching this out to see if those things were so, this is not what noble Christians do, dear sister ~ Acts 17:11.
Secondly, I know the difference bewtween our new birth, which was indeed a resurrection from the dead by the same power that raised our Lord from the dead. I understand perfectly that the resurrection of our bodies will be on the last day, yet in the future, which will be the second resurrection.
Christ is the FIRST resurrection in the sense in which he was raised from the dead ~I said:
Victoria, I think you are the one that is confused and you truly need to rethink what you ahve been taught~no pun intended.
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3 Resurrections
Later RB
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Only If, there was defining proof that the book was written before 70AD and was not written in 95AD. And there is not.
You are certain the author was not the Apostle John (John of Patmos) While Irenaeus and Justin Martyr identified John the Apostle as the author of the Book of Revelation.
Darrell L.
Active Member
Thanks for sharing your study with us, greatly appreciated.
There is extensive internal proof within Revelation itself which pinpoints the date to somewhere between late AD 59 and early AD 60. No earlier, and no later. This inspired, internal evidence of datable events in Revelation overrides any external sources, without question. You may not remember it and may not have read it, but I posted this internal evidence at length on GCF before. Besides, it doesn't help you even if you think Revelation was written in AD 95. It would STILL be writing about events that were "at hand" in that AD 95 time frame - not for the distant future from that date. The only exception is the Revelation 10:4 verse, which was the "sealed up" prophecies that the seven thunders uttered. These are the only prophecies which were reserved for times far distant to John's own first-century generation.
I am certain that the author of Revelation was not John the son of Zebedee. Christ had promised that both sons of Zebedee would drink the same cup as He Himself would do and be "baptized" with the baptism He was going to experience (Matt. 20:23). And Herod had James son of Zebedee slain by the sword already in Acts 12:2. John son of Zebedee's martyrdom would have followed, in fulfillment of Christ's prediction. It was not the martyred John son of Zebedee who wrote Revelation, but the "beloved disciple" Lazarus / aka John Eleazar who was going to "remain till I come" (John 21:22). John son of Zebedee cannot possibly have Christ's promise of martyrdom and likewise have Christ's promise to "remain till I come". These are contradictory fates, and show us that John son of Zebedee could not possibly have been the "beloved disciple".
And there were other men named "John" connected with the early church, such as John, Peter's father in John 1:42, and "John surnamed Mark", (sister's son to Barnabas), to further cloud the issue of just which John was performing which activity and when. Eusebius' History preserved Papias' comment (a contemporary of Polycarp) that mentions two men named John distinct from each other: one John the Apostle, and one John the Elder. So, there is definitely room for challenging the usual assumption of authorship for Revelation as well as the gospel and the epistles.
Victoria
Active Member
I never said there was more than one elect body.
Red, I sense some projection happening here. Did Jesus not plainly command His disciples, & later Paul, to go to a specific audience?
The book of Acts is in the New Testament.
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for
the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(Acts 2:36-38)
Peter is addressing unsaved Israelite's, in the flesh here.
As Jesus commanded the twelve, go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel...
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
(1 Peter 1:1)
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
(James 1:1)
The apostle John was one of the twelve disciples as well. Guess who he wrote to?
Again, Red, you're projecting your confusion onto me. You're not rightly dividing. The first resurrection speaks of priests in
Revelation 20:6. There's absolutely no mention of the Body of Christ being priests. Again, we're a body, not scattered tribes.
@Victoria
Old Covenant promises to Israel, Fulfilled in New Covenant Israel The Old Testament (as understood by Premillennialists) is Israel-centered rather than God centered. But the New Testament reveals that the history, ordinances, and indeed the very nation of Israel itself were types and shadows of spiritual realities that would come in Christ (Colossians 2:17; Hebrews 8:1-5; 10:1; 1st Corinthians 10:18). Not fully understanding this most basic of Biblical principles is at the root of most of the millennial errors of theologians. When God says something is fulfilled, then it is fulfilled. The types of Old Testament Israel (Prophets, Jerusalem, Feasts, Priests, the Law, Kingdom, Land, Sacrificial System, Temple, Deliverance, etc.) were all fulfilled in Christ (Luke 24:27). The problem is that many people, whether consciously or unconsciously, refuse to accept the fact that these types were actually fulfilled in Christ. They may give lip service to understanding it, but in practice they deny it. In point of fact, the scriptures are devastating to such an unfulfilled approach to the Old Testament prophesy, for it would prolong what God has once and for all abolished by the cross. Jimmy Swaggart SBN has no clue as to what the message of the cross is since they deny just about every important truth of the cross!
The institutions and shadows that were of the nation Israel. These "types" were fulfilled.
Luke 24:44-45~"And He said to them, these are the words which I spake unto you while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the Prophets, and in the Psalms, concerning Me."
That all things must be fulfilled which were written in the law of Moses, the prophets and the Psalms concerning Christ. It's not insignificant that national Israel rejected Christ for the very same reasons that some theologians today reject Amillennialism. They just refused to believe God's truth that "He" was the fulfillment of Old Testament scripture that prophesied of a Messiah who would come and establish His government, rule and righteousness in the kingdom of Israel. Because their Judaic traditions put forth the idea that the prophecy was of a earthly government, ruler, and a kingdom, and that didn't fit what Jesus came to do. That wasn't the Kingdom that the "true" Christ came to establish. Premillennialism, and in a sense Postmillennialism, looks for the very same worldly (carnal) or earthly fulfillment in prophesy. They do not discern or understand that this is the "very same" error that national Israel made. In fact, Premillennialism is 'nothing less' than the old Judaic law bound earthly expectations. It is the age-old Judaic tradition that Christ's Kingdom is an earthly Kingdom taking a form just like the world's kingdoms. In other words, Christ coming to a geographical political nation on earth, to a earthly city, sitting on an physical literal earthly throne, in a literal Temple. None of this was prophesied, and none of it is true.
Acts 7:48~"Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,"
Hebrews 9:11~"But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;"
Hebrews 9:24~"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:"
Theologians have a hard time comprehending that Christ's Kingdom is not meat and drink, and His Holy place not made with hands. These Old Testament realities were "figures" or types pointing to Christ, their fulfillment. The prophecy concerning rebuilding the Temple and the reigning of Christ in Israel were not to be interpreted as the world defines terms, but as God defined them.
We may come back and look at some of the basic Biblical foundations of Amillennialism? If the promises made to Israel were to the Church, Israel, rather than the Middle Eastern political nation or people, then we should see the fulfillment of them clearly delineated in scripture. And if we do, then these worldly doctrines are found wanting, and once again Amillennialism triumphs Biblically.
Galatians 2:9
“And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.”
But this does make them two separate bodies under NT, it shows the wisdom of God in taking the gospel to the Gentiles through Paul who was never an apostle to the circumcision, so they could not accuse him of of changing his position, by carrying out the gospel as the apostles did, proves Christ's death revealed God's full predestination plan from the beginning, taught all through their OT scriptures, but hidden until the time God purpose to reveal His eternal purpose came.
The earth in this verse is speaking of the new earth where all of the elect Jews and Gentiles shall reign as kings and priest of God throughout eternity.
Christ is the head of one body, Jews and Gentiles, we shall sit down with our father Abraham in the kingdom of God.
If one is confused here it would be you dear soul. I have ponder these things for over fifty some years, over and over again.
To remind you, you said this: The highlighted areas are mine for discussion.
So, dear soul, you did separate the church from Israel ~ one being a heavenly people, the other an earthly people. And as you have said also, the church is not the bride of Christ, Israel is, so by these unscriptural statements you have two two bodies of people separated by location and identification. This is against the prophets, Christ, and his apostles. The mystery hidden in the scriptures is the two (Jews and Gentiles) shall become one elect, holy spiritual temple, for God to dwell in the midst of forever, world without end.
Old Covenant promises to Israel, Fulfilled in New Covenant Israel The Old Testament (as understood by Premillennialists) is Israel-centered rather than God centered. But the New Testament reveals that the history, ordinances, and indeed the very nation of Israel itself were types and shadows of spiritual realities that would come in Christ (Colossians 2:17; Hebrews 8:1-5; 10:1; 1st Corinthians 10:18). Not fully understanding this most basic of Biblical principles is at the root of most of the millennial errors of theologians. When God says something is fulfilled, then it is fulfilled. The types of Old Testament Israel (Prophets, Jerusalem, Feasts, Priests, the Law, Kingdom, Land, Sacrificial System, Temple, Deliverance, etc.) were all fulfilled in Christ (Luke 24:27). The problem is that many people, whether consciously or unconsciously, refuse to accept the fact that these types were actually fulfilled in Christ. They may give lip service to understanding it, but in practice they deny it. In point of fact, the scriptures are devastating to such an unfulfilled approach to the Old Testament prophesy, for it would prolong what God has once and for all abolished by the cross. Jimmy Swaggart SBN has no clue as to what the message of the cross is since they deny just about every important truth of the cross!
The institutions and shadows that were of the nation Israel. These "types" were fulfilled.
Luke 24:44-45~"And He said to them, these are the words which I spake unto you while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the Prophets, and in the Psalms, concerning Me."
That all things must be fulfilled which were written in the law of Moses, the prophets and the Psalms concerning Christ. It's not insignificant that national Israel rejected Christ for the very same reasons that some theologians today reject Amillennialism. They just refused to believe God's truth that "He" was the fulfillment of Old Testament scripture that prophesied of a Messiah who would come and establish His government, rule and righteousness in the kingdom of Israel. Because their Judaic traditions put forth the idea that the prophecy was of a earthly government, ruler, and a kingdom, and that didn't fit what Jesus came to do. That wasn't the Kingdom that the "true" Christ came to establish. Premillennialism, and in a sense Postmillennialism, looks for the very same worldly (carnal) or earthly fulfillment in prophesy. They do not discern or understand that this is the "very same" error that national Israel made. In fact, Premillennialism is 'nothing less' than the old Judaic law bound earthly expectations. It is the age-old Judaic tradition that Christ's Kingdom is an earthly Kingdom taking a form just like the world's kingdoms. In other words, Christ coming to a geographical political nation on earth, to a earthly city, sitting on an physical literal earthly throne, in a literal Temple. None of this was prophesied, and none of it is true.
Acts 7:48~"Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,"
Hebrews 9:11~"But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;"
Hebrews 9:24~"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:"
Theologians have a hard time comprehending that Christ's Kingdom is not meat and drink, and His Holy place not made with hands. These Old Testament realities were "figures" or types pointing to Christ, their fulfillment. The prophecy concerning rebuilding the Temple and the reigning of Christ in Israel were not to be interpreted as the world defines terms, but as God defined them.
We may come back and look at some of the basic Biblical foundations of Amillennialism? If the promises made to Israel were to the Church, Israel, rather than the Middle Eastern political nation or people, then we should see the fulfillment of them clearly delineated in scripture. And if we do, then these worldly doctrines are found wanting, and once again Amillennialism triumphs Biblically.
Yes he did until Acts 10, and then it all changed and the man (Paul, a Jew by nature) who God gave the mystery to begin to unfold that mystery to us.
No one is rejecting the truth that the gospel went to the Jews first, and then to the Gentiles. Neither do we reject that Peter, and James and the other apostles went to the circumcision and Paul to the uncircumcision. Even though they all (apostles) wrote to each other (saints, both Jews and Gentiles).
Galatians 2:9
“And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.”
But this does make them two separate bodies under NT, it shows the wisdom of God in taking the gospel to the Gentiles through Paul who was never an apostle to the circumcision, so they could not accuse him of of changing his position, by carrying out the gospel as the apostles did, proves Christ's death revealed God's full predestination plan from the beginning, taught all through their OT scriptures, but hidden until the time God purpose to reveal His eternal purpose came.
1 Peter 2:9
“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:”Revelation 1:6
“And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”Revelation 5:10
“And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”The earth in this verse is speaking of the new earth where all of the elect Jews and Gentiles shall reign as kings and priest of God throughout eternity.
Christ is the head of one body, Jews and Gentiles, we shall sit down with our father Abraham in the kingdom of God.
Matthew 8:11
“And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.”If one is confused here it would be you dear soul. I have ponder these things for over fifty some years, over and over again.
@Blessed
Yes, it is one of their main teachings ~ when you say dispensationalism, I assuming you are referring to Premillennialism, whose system sounds more like a sci-fic movie, than biblical eschatology.
Greetings Blessed,
Yes, it is one of their main teachings ~ when you say dispensationalism, I assuming you are referring to Premillennialism, whose system sounds more like a sci-fic movie, than biblical eschatology.
Victoria
Active Member
In response to: @Red Baker
Gentiles Cleave to Israel: Israel’s Role in Teaching and Leading the Nations
The Bible describes a future time when Gentiles will cling to Israel, seeking to learn the ways of God. This is the fulfillment of God’s ultimate plan for Israel to guide the nations. From the beginning, He gave the descendants of Jacob the responsibility to uphold and teach His laws. In the last days and throughout the millennial reign, He will give them the strength to carry out this assignment completely.
What It Means for Gentiles to Cleave to Israel
The word "cleave" in the Bible means to hold on tightly and remain connected.
Isaiah 14:1 describes this:
"For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob."
This passage reveals to us that the Gentiles will hold onto Israel because they will see that God is with them. They will no longer try to create their own ways to serve Him but will look to Israel for guidance.
Israel Was Always Meant to Teach the Nations
From the beginning, GOD gave Israel the responsibility of teaching righteousness. The law was given to them, not to any other people. Isaiah 2:2-3 speaks of the nations turning to Israel for wisdom:
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."
Micah 4:1-2 repeats this prophecy, making it clear that Israel will be the source of instruction for the world:
"But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."
God entrusted this role to the descendants of Jacob. The law will not come from any other source. In the last days, when order is restored, the nations will recognize that Israel was always meant to lead them in righteousness.
The Messiah’s Reign and Israel’s Leadership
Though Israel is given the responsibility to teach, Jesus is the King who will reign over all.
Zechariah 2:11 describes how
God will bring the nations to Himself:
"And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee."
The nations will worship God, but they will not be in charge. They will follow the order that He established, with Israel leading them in obedience to His commandments.
Israel Ruling with the Messiah During the Millennial Reign
The Bible makes it clear that Israel will not only teach the nations but will also rule alongside the Messiah.
Revelation 5:10 declares this:
"And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."
This verse confirms that God has appointed Israel as both rulers and priests under the authority of the Messiah. They will not just be teachers but will exercise authority over the nations. Their leadership will not come through their own power but through God's divine order. This aligns with Daniel 7:27, which states:
"And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him."
Israel’s role will not just be one of instruction, but of active governance in righteousness. The nations will be under their rule, learning God’s laws from those He has chosen.
Gentiles Will Actively Seek Israel’s Guidance
The Gentiles will not resist Israel’s leadership. They will recognize that God is with His people and will seek to follow them.
Zechariah 8:23 speaks about this moment:
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you."
The world will no longer be divided in confusion. The nations will no longer create their own religious paths. They will know that God is with Israel, and they will come to them for guidance.
Israel Was Given the Oracles of God
The reason Israel holds this responsibility is made clear in Romans 3:1-2:
"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God."
God gave His laws, His wisdom, and His truth to Israel. That has not changed, and it never will.
Israel’s Future Role in the Kingdom
For centuries, Israel has been scattered and mistreated, but God has not forgotten His promises. In the last days and during the millennial reign, He will restore His people to their rightful place. They will no longer be oppressed or hidden. Instead, they will be the ones guiding the world in righteousness, just as God intended from the beginning.
Israel will not follow the nations. The nations will follow Israel. The law will go forth from Zion, and God’s people will be the ones teaching it. The world will not stay in disorder. God will bring everything into its proper place, and Israel will fulfill the role He gave them long ago.
Conclusion
The Bible is clear. God chose Israel to lead the nations in righteousness. The Gentiles will cleave to them, not to change them, but to learn from them. As Israel follows the Messiah, they will teach the world what is right. In the last days, God will restore Israel to their position, and the nations will no longer follow their own ways. They will look to Zion, where the truth has always been. Through Israel, God’s laws will reach the entire world, just as He planned from the beginning.
Gentiles Cleave to Israel: Israel’s Role in Teaching and Leading the Nations
The Bible describes a future time when Gentiles will cling to Israel, seeking to learn the ways of God. This is the fulfillment of God’s ultimate plan for Israel to guide the nations. From the beginning, He gave the descendants of Jacob the responsibility to uphold and teach His laws. In the last days and throughout the millennial reign, He will give them the strength to carry out this assignment completely.
What It Means for Gentiles to Cleave to Israel
The word "cleave" in the Bible means to hold on tightly and remain connected.
Isaiah 14:1 describes this:
"For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob."
This passage reveals to us that the Gentiles will hold onto Israel because they will see that God is with them. They will no longer try to create their own ways to serve Him but will look to Israel for guidance.
Israel Was Always Meant to Teach the Nations
From the beginning, GOD gave Israel the responsibility of teaching righteousness. The law was given to them, not to any other people. Isaiah 2:2-3 speaks of the nations turning to Israel for wisdom:
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."
Micah 4:1-2 repeats this prophecy, making it clear that Israel will be the source of instruction for the world:
"But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."
God entrusted this role to the descendants of Jacob. The law will not come from any other source. In the last days, when order is restored, the nations will recognize that Israel was always meant to lead them in righteousness.
The Messiah’s Reign and Israel’s Leadership
Though Israel is given the responsibility to teach, Jesus is the King who will reign over all.
Zechariah 2:11 describes how
God will bring the nations to Himself:
"And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee."
The nations will worship God, but they will not be in charge. They will follow the order that He established, with Israel leading them in obedience to His commandments.
Israel Ruling with the Messiah During the Millennial Reign
The Bible makes it clear that Israel will not only teach the nations but will also rule alongside the Messiah.
Revelation 5:10 declares this:
"And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."
This verse confirms that God has appointed Israel as both rulers and priests under the authority of the Messiah. They will not just be teachers but will exercise authority over the nations. Their leadership will not come through their own power but through God's divine order. This aligns with Daniel 7:27, which states:
"And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him."
Israel’s role will not just be one of instruction, but of active governance in righteousness. The nations will be under their rule, learning God’s laws from those He has chosen.
Gentiles Will Actively Seek Israel’s Guidance
The Gentiles will not resist Israel’s leadership. They will recognize that God is with His people and will seek to follow them.
Zechariah 8:23 speaks about this moment:
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you."
The world will no longer be divided in confusion. The nations will no longer create their own religious paths. They will know that God is with Israel, and they will come to them for guidance.
Israel Was Given the Oracles of God
The reason Israel holds this responsibility is made clear in Romans 3:1-2:
"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God."
God gave His laws, His wisdom, and His truth to Israel. That has not changed, and it never will.
Israel’s Future Role in the Kingdom
For centuries, Israel has been scattered and mistreated, but God has not forgotten His promises. In the last days and during the millennial reign, He will restore His people to their rightful place. They will no longer be oppressed or hidden. Instead, they will be the ones guiding the world in righteousness, just as God intended from the beginning.
Israel will not follow the nations. The nations will follow Israel. The law will go forth from Zion, and God’s people will be the ones teaching it. The world will not stay in disorder. God will bring everything into its proper place, and Israel will fulfill the role He gave them long ago.
Conclusion
The Bible is clear. God chose Israel to lead the nations in righteousness. The Gentiles will cleave to them, not to change them, but to learn from them. As Israel follows the Messiah, they will teach the world what is right. In the last days, God will restore Israel to their position, and the nations will no longer follow their own ways. They will look to Zion, where the truth has always been. Through Israel, God’s laws will reach the entire world, just as He planned from the beginning.
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Victoria
Active Member
Greetings Blessed,
In a nutshell, it's Dispensationalism vs. Replacement Theology, where many believe the Body of Christ replaces Israel.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Agreed. 100%
@Victoria
I did glance over the source of your material and see they are Mid-Acts followers who followed the teachings Charles Baker (no kin to me) who followed C.I. Scofield, and maybe (not sure 100%) went beyond Scofield's teachings making him a hyper dispensational teacher. I'll do my homework later.
I'll read this later and respond~I'm traveling to be with a small group of believers about an hour away and may be with them the greater part of the day, so not sure when I can respond, but for sure I will.
I did glance over the source of your material and see they are Mid-Acts followers who followed the teachings Charles Baker (no kin to me) who followed C.I. Scofield, and maybe (not sure 100%) went beyond Scofield's teachings making him a hyper dispensational teacher. I'll do my homework later.
@Victoria @Blessed @FreeInChrist @Jim @civic @dwight92070 @mikesw @3 Resurrections
No, we just understand how the scriptures teaches who is the true Israel of God! We do not take the children's bread and give it to the dog, who reject Christ, as the true Messiah of God. All of God's promises are IN CHRIST, there is not one promise from God to those who are not IN CHRIST, by God's eelction of grace, all who are, are the children of God's promises be they Jews or Gentiles.
Once more and please consider this prayerfully and read it slowly:
The promises to Israel are not now null and void as some might suppose. Nor has the Church replaced Israel as some boastfully claim. Indeed Israel has not been abandoned. The promises to Israel "stand" because they were not made to a literal earthly nation, but to a chosen people who bring forth the fruits worthy of repentance. Unfortunately, some people have no concept of the way Old Testament prophecy is fulfilled in Christ. Those promises to Israel are kept, and are fulfilled in Christ, and in whosoever God chooses to call Israel, by reason of their being in Christ. He is the true Israel of God.
No that's incorrect. I said above:
You said: "where many believe the Body of Christ replaces Israel."
No, we just understand how the scriptures teaches who is the true Israel of God! We do not take the children's bread and give it to the dog, who reject Christ, as the true Messiah of God. All of God's promises are IN CHRIST, there is not one promise from God to those who are not IN CHRIST, by God's eelction of grace, all who are, are the children of God's promises be they Jews or Gentiles.
Romans 9:8“That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
Once more and please consider this prayerfully and read it slowly:
The promises to Israel are not now null and void as some might suppose. Nor has the Church replaced Israel as some boastfully claim. Indeed Israel has not been abandoned. The promises to Israel "stand" because they were not made to a literal earthly nation, but to a chosen people who bring forth the fruits worthy of repentance. Unfortunately, some people have no concept of the way Old Testament prophecy is fulfilled in Christ. Those promises to Israel are kept, and are fulfilled in Christ, and in whosoever God chooses to call Israel, by reason of their being in Christ. He is the true Israel of God.
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Blessed
Active Member
Thank you.
civic
Active Member
In 1948 when the modern state of Israel was born, it not only became an important
stage setting development but began an actual fulfillment of specific Bible prophecies
about an international regathering of the Jews in unbelief before the judgment of the
tribulation. Such a prediction is found in the following Old Testament passages: Ezek.
20:33-38; 22:17-22; 36:22-24; 37:1–14; Isa. 11:11-12; Zeph. 2:1-2 and Ezek. 38–39
presupposes such a setting.
Zephaniah 1:14-18 is one of the most colorful descriptions of “The Day of the LORD,”
which we commonly call the tribulation period. Zephaniah 2:1-2 says that there will be a
world-wide regathering of Israel before the day of the LORD. “Gather yourselves together,
yes, gather, O nation without shame, before the decree takes effect—the day passes like
the chaff—before the burning anger of the LORD comes upon you, before the day of the
LORD’s anger comes upon you.”
Ezekiel 20:33–38 speaks of a regathering, which must take place before the tribulation.
The passage speaks of bringing the nation of Israel back “from the peoples and gather you
from the lands where you are scattered, with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm
and with wrath poured out” (Ezek. 20:34). “With wrath poured out” is a descriptive
reference to the tribulation. Thus, in order this to occur in history, Israel must be back in the
land before the tribulation. This passage clearly says that it is the Lord who is bringing them
back. The current nation of Israel is in the process of fulfilling this passage.
In a similar vein, two chapters later, Ezekiel receives another revelation about a future
regathering of national Israel (Ezek. 22:17–22). This time, the Lord is “going to gather you
into the midst of Jerusalem” (Ezek. 22:19). Like the metallurgist, the Lord will use the fire of
the tribulation to purge out the unfaithful. The Lord is going to “gather you [Israel] and blow
on you with the fire of My wrath, and you will be melted in the midst of it” (Ezek. 22:21).
Once again, “My wrath” depicts the time of the tribulation. It also follows here that the nation
must be regathered before that event can take place. The outcome of this event will be
that the nation “will know that I, the LORD, have poured out My wrath on you” (Ezek. 22:22).
For this to occur, there must be a regathering by the Lord of Israel to the land, just like we
see happening with the modern state of Israel. God is at work through the current state of
Israel.
Surely, anyone who claims to believe in a national future for Israel would have to say
that the valley of dry bones prophecy in some way, shape, or form relates to modern Israel
(Ezek. 37:1–14). The prophet describes a future process through which the nation of Israel
will come to be reconstituted and (when the process is complete) enter into a faithful spiritual
relationship with the Lord. This multi stage process must surely include the current nation of
Israel, in unbelief, that is being prepared to go through a time that will lead to her conversion
to Jesus as their Messiah. This is said by Ezekiel to be a work of the Lord (Ezek. 37:14).
Thus, the modern state of Israel is a work of God and biblically significant.
Second World-Wide Gathering in Belief
Many passages in the Bible speak of Israel’s regathering, in belief, at the end of the
tribulation, in conjunction with Christ’s second coming, in preparation for commencement of
the millennium. These references are not being fulfilled by the modern state of Israel.
Some of the citations include: Deut. 4:29-31, 30:1-10; Isa. 27:12-13, 43:5-7; Jer. 16:14-
15; 31:7-10; Ezek. 11:14-18; Amos 9:14-15; Zech. 10:8-12; Matt. 24:31 and many more.
I think that this regathering will fulfill the Feast of Trumpets (
Rosh Hashanah) for the nation of Israel.
Matthew 24:31, records a future regathering of Israel, this time in belief. “And He will
send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the
four winds, from one end of the sky to the other” (Matt. 24:31). This is said to take place
after the tribulation (Matt. 24:29), which would be the second coming.
CONCLUSION
The fact that the last fifty years has seen a world-wide regathering and reestablishment
of the nation of Israel, which is now poised in just the setting required for the revealing of the
Antichrist and the start of the tribulation, is God’s grand indicator that all of the other areas of
world development are prophetically significant. Dr. Walvoord says,
www.pre-trib.org 4
Of the many peculiar phenomena which characterize the present generation, few
events can claim equal significance as far as Biblical prophecy is concerned with
that of the return of Israel to their land. It constitutes a preparation for the end of
the age, the setting for the coming of the Lord for His church, and the fulfillment of
Israel's prophetic destiny.
It is true that the Bible predicts a future time when Israel will be regathered in belief and
will then enter into the kingdom for a thousand years. However, as I have demonstrated
above, the same Scriptures also tell us of a time when Israel will be regathered in unbelief,
before the tribulation in order that God may complete His plan for national Israel. The
current nation of Israel is the beginning of fulfillment of just such prophecy. Modern Israel is
the result of God’s direct intervention in history. I believe that those who speak contrary to
this will be found to be fighting God. Maranatha! https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/modern-day-israel-on-gods-prophetic-calendar.228/
hope this helps !!!
Victoria
Active Member
I'm not hyper dispensational, for I do not hold the Acts 28:28 position.
Perhaps I should make a thread to show believers as early as the 2nd Century, & onward, were in some way dispensational, given the word dispensation appears in the Bible four times. If we do away w/ the dispensation of the grace of God, you no longer have grace when placing yourself anywhere in the Hebrew epistles.
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
(1 Corinthians 9:17)
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven,
and which are on earth; even in him:
(Ephesians 1:10)
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
(Ephesians 3:2)
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
(Colossians 1:25)
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