The New birth comes after hearing/believing the gospel

brightfame52 said:
The ones in Romans 5:18 which are the elect yes
Click to expand...
No one is justified until they believe

Galatians 2:16 (NASB 95) — 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

There is no previous to faith justification

Galatians 3:24 (NASB 95) — 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Rom 4:24–5:1but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
 
TibiasDad said:
Warning! Beware of the invisible wording virus that can cause people to insert words into the text, eg, “for all (kinds) of men” or “all (types) of men”! Those infected will try to spread the virus to others!

Doug
Click to expand...
What does "for all men" in the first part of Romans 5:18 mean?

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men.....

You seem to think it means something different from that in the second part of that verse.

Rom 5:18 ..... "so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men".

The only reason for doing so is your preconceived theological ideas rather than any legitimate hermeneutics.
 
TibiasDad said:
Warning! Beware of the invisible wording virus that can cause people to insert words into the text, eg, “for all (kinds) of men” or “all (types) of men”! Those infected will try to spread the virus to others!

Doug
Click to expand...
That's right, let the Holy Spirit guide you into all truth.

Make Me More Like Jesus

I've been told to live my own truth
Do whatever makes me feel good
Get rid of boundaries, the rules are stifling
Chase good feelings, soon we'll be gone

But I found myself more lost than ever
Enslaved and bound to my desires
And that's not freedom

Holy Spirit make me more like Jesus
Every day a little more like Jesus
Crucify my flesh with Yours
That my new life might be secured
Everything I do, done so I can honor You
Resurrect me, sanctify me
Make me into Your image
Make me more like Jesus (more of you and less of me)

(I feel the change coming) I feel the change coming
More of You, and less of me
Transformation by Your Spirit in me

Now that I know You, I know there's no one else for me
'Cause You're the one that my soul loves (Oh)

Now I find myself more alive than ever
My life laid down for your desires
Now this is freedom

Holy Spirit make me more like Jesus
Every day a little more like Jesus
Crucify my flesh with Yours
That my new life might be secured
Everything I do, done so I can honor You
Resurrect me, sanctify me
Make me into Your image
(Eh, Thank you Jesus for your transformation power)

Praise be to God, Praise be to God
You've saved me from myself
Praise be to God, Praise be to God
A new life, I've been dealt
I'll never look back, no I can't go back, I'm Yours (oh God)
No I'll never look back, no I can't go back, I'm Yours

(Oh praise be to God) Praise be to God, Praise be to God
You've saved me from myself
Praise be to God, Praise be to God
A new life, I've been dealt
(No) I'll never look back, no I can't go back, I'm Yours (Oh I'm never going back)
I'll never look back, no I can't go back, I'm Yours

Holy Spirit make me more like Jesus
Every day a little more like Jesus
Crucify my flesh with Yours
That my new life might be secured
Everything I do, done so I can honor You
(Oh) Resurrect me, sanctify me
Make me into Your (more like you)

Holy Spirit make me more like Jesus
Every day a little more like Jesus
Crucify my flesh with Yours
That my new life might be secured
Everything I do, done so I can honor You
Resurrect me, sanctify me
Make me into Your image (yes Lord)
Your image
More of you and less of me

My preference is no matter
Where I thought I'll be doesn't matter
It's all about Jesus

Praise be to God, Praise be to God
You've saved me from myself
Praise be to God, Praise be to God
A new life, I've been dealt
I'll never look back, no I can't go back, I'm Yours
No I'll never look back, no I can't go back, I'm yours

(Come on praise him like he saved you, praise be to God) Praise be to God, Praise be to God
You've saved me from myself (yeah)
Praise be to God, Praise be to God
A new life, I've been dealt
(Oh) I'll never look back, no I can't go back, I'm Yours (No I'll never look back)
No I'll never look back, no I can't go back, I'm yours

(Oh praise be to God) Praise be to God, Praise be to God
You've saved me from myself (oh I was on a path of destruction)
Praise be to God, Praise be to God
A new life, I've been dealt
(Oh) I'll never look back, no I can't go back, I'm Yours (oh I'll never look back)
No I'll never look back, no I can't go back, I'm yours

Holy Spirit make me more like Jesus
Every day a little more like Jesus
Crucify my flesh with Yours
That my new life might be secured
Everything I do, done so I can honor You
(Oh) Resurrect me, sanctify me
Make me into Your image

(Oh it all we want oh God)
It's all we want
It's all we want
More of you
More of your spirit
Less of us oh God
Yeah

Surely if we die a death like yours
We'll be resurrected with you
If we die a death like yours
Die to ourselves, we'll be resurrected

Thank you for your resurrection
Thank you for your resurrection
Thank you for your resurrection ('cause we rise with you lord)
Thank you for your resurrection
Thank you for your resurrection
Thank you for your resurrection

(Make me more you) Holy Spirit make me more like Jesus
Every day a little more like Jesus
Crucify my flesh with Yours
That my new life might be secured
Everything I do, done so I can honor You
(Oh) Resurrect me, sanctify me
Make me into Your image
 
Jim said:
What does "for all men" in the first part of Romans 5:18 mean?

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men.....

You seem to think it means something different from that in the second part of that verse.

Rom 5:18 ..... "so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men".

The only reason for doing so is your preconceived theological ideas rather than any legitimate hermeneutics.
Click to expand...
I was teasing you about how the Calvinist might respond to you. I am not a Calvinist, which anyone who has been here for more than a Mic-minute can testify.

Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
I was teasing you about how the Calvinist might respond to you. I am not a Calvinist, which anyone who has been here for more than a Mic-minute can testify.

Doug
Click to expand...
Yes I know you are not a Calvinist. I was asking you for your definition/interpretation of the meaning of "all men" in the second part of Romans 5:18. I know the Calvinist's definition; what is yours? Is it really all men? For what it is worth, I think it is all men; and that has nothing to do with any universalism of salvation.
 
Jim said:
How come the Holy Spirit doesn't seem to guide you to the same "truth" that He guides to others?
Click to expand...
They live their own truth which in the cast of Unitarianism is far from the truth. They follow the wrong spirit.
There have been Unitarian heresies circulating throughout the church from the earliest ages.
 
Jim said:
Yes I know you are not a Calvinist. I was asking you for your definition/interpretation of the meaning of "all men" in the second part of Romans 5:18. I know the Calvinist's definition; what is yours? Is it really all men? For what it is worth, I think it is all men; and that has nothing to do with any universalism of salvation.
Click to expand...
That is it. Justification is available to all and given to all those who repent/believe.
 
Last edited:
dwight92070 said:
What a bunch of Calvinist indoctrination!!!

Isn't is interesting that people think if you include exotic paintings of Bible characters, that their message MUST BE TRUE. NOT!!

The only elect are those who, by their own free will, chose to repent and put their faith in Jesus. They are IN CHRIST, the True Chosen One of God.
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Christ is the elect. Those in Christ are indeed therefore elect.
 
TomL said:
That is it. Justification is available to all and given to all those who repent/believe.
Click to expand...
I actually like the NASB version better:

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
The KJV has it as
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
 
Jim said:
Yes I know you are not a Calvinist. I was asking you for your definition/interpretation of the meaning of "all men" in the second part of Romans 5:18. I know the Calvinist's definition; what is yours? Is it really all men? For what it is worth, I think it is all men; and that has nothing to do with any universalism of salvation.
Click to expand...
I agree with your assessment.

Doug
 
TomL said:
Rom 5:18

Romans 5:18 (NASB95) — 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

so they were also the ones condemned?
Click to expand...
The verse is about the elect and the condemnation they accrued was charged to Christ their Surety.
 
brightfame52 said:
The verse is about the elect and the condemnation they accrued was charged to Christ their Surety.
Click to expand...
It says “all men”, not ‘all elect men’! The “all men” which were condemned are the same “all men” who were atoned for by Christ. There is no qualification for the second “all men” to distinguish them from the first instance of “all men in the verse.

This means, as an elementary point of hermeneutics, that there is no other option of interpretation.

Doug
 
brightfame52 said:
That's not what Romans 5:18 says
Click to expand...
First you ignored this

No one is justified until they believe

Galatians 2:16 (NASB 95) — 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

There is no previous to faith justification

Galatians 3:24 (NASB 95) — 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Rom 4:24–5:1but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Second, the term "all men" in Rom 5:18 is not a substitute for the term "the unconditionally elect."
 
Jim said:
I actually like the NASB version better:

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
The KJV has it as
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Click to expand...
And your point?
 
TibiasDad said:
It says “all men”, not ‘all elect men’! The “all men” which were condemned are the same “all men” who were atoned for by Christ. There is no qualification for the second “all men” to distinguish them from the first instance of “all men in the verse.

This means, as an elementary point of hermeneutics, that there is no other option of interpretation.

Doug
Click to expand...
amazing what some will read inot a passage and add to Gods word things He never intended to be understood in that way. I always say God means what He says and says what He means including every single word.
 

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