The New birth comes after hearing/believing the gospel

[atpollard]

The word forexample allows belief

Yup, the word is one of the things that comes before and empowers belief … but many hear only foolishness and are not saved … so there is more (like the difference between Lydia and the Pharisees who both “heard the word” - one unto life and one to damnation).

 

[TomL]

So were the scribes and Pharisees…

Matthew 23:29-33 [ESV]
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, saying, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Hardly

Can you compare such to Lydia

Acts 16:14 (NASB95) — 14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

BTW the Calvinist doctrine of total depravity has man hating God

Lydia's worship of God disproves that doctrine.

the difference is …

Acts 16:14 [ESV]
One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

 

[TomL]

He is believed in because he's already forgiven their sins.

Sorry, but one must believe the gospel before being saved.

1 Cor 15:1–4 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Rom 1:16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

You ignored this.

 

[brightfame52]

Nope, without repentance there is no forgiveness of sin

Yes acts 10:43 is speaking about when the person receives the knowledge of their forgiveness of sins Christ already forgave them by His .blood

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry, but one must believe the gospel before being saved.

A person is forgiven and saved by grace before they know about it and before they believe

 

[TomL]

The gospel as a word of salvation is to the saved. Ephesians 1:13

Afraid not

1 Cor 15:1–4 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Rom 1:16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

and regarding Eph 1:13

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB95) — 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

after listening and believing men were sealed in Christ with the holy Spirit

 

[atpollard]

Hardly

Can you compare such to Lydia

Acts 16:14 (NASB95) — 14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

BTW the Calvinist doctrine of total depravity has man hating God

Lydia's worship of God disproves that doctrine.

Are you really claiming that the Priests, Scribes and Pharisees in the Temple in Jerusalem were not “worshippers of God” … men like Saul of Tarsus who was holding the cloaks at the stoning of Stephen?

The critical difference between “Lydia” and the “brood of vipers” is that “THE LORD OPENED HER HEART”!

 

[TomL]

A person is forgiven and saved by grace before they know about it and before they believe

Not according to scripture

Rom 10:9–10 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Mark 16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
1 Pet 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

 

[Hosanna]

And forgiven if He did die for our sins.

There is no If. The veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom immediately after Jesus' death, signifying that the barrier between humanity and God was removed. This event is interpreted as a symbol that believers now have direct access to God through Jesus' sacrifice, marking the beginning of a new covenant and a new era of salvation. The tearing signified that God's presence was no longer confined to the Holy of Holies but was now accessible to all who have faith.

 

[Hosanna]

False sins are forgiven based upon the blood of Christ

That's a typographical error right?

 

[TomL]

Are you really claiming that the Priests, Scribes and Pharisees in the Temple in Jerusalem were not “worshippers of God” … men like Saul of Tarsus who was holding the cloaks at the stoning of Stephen?

The ones being spoken of as Serpants, brood of vipers, yes.

Matthew 23:29-33 [ESV]
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, saying, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

They sound nothing at all like Lydia.

The critical difference between “Lydia” and the “brood of vipers” is that “THE LORD OPENED HER HEART”!

You are ignoring the fact that Calvinism's doctrine of total depravity holds men cannot worship God.

 

[TomL]

That's a typographical error right?

I believe he means

False. Sins are forgiven based upon the blood of Christ.

However, he omits the necessity of faith and repentance.

 

[brightfame52]

Afraid not

Yes it was their salvation when they heard about it Ephesians 1:13

 

[brightfame52]

There is no If

Yes it is because Christ didn't die for everyone. If he did die for that person that person is forgiven justice has been satisfied

 

[brightfame52]

That's a typographical error right?

No it's not

 

[brightfame52]

However, he omits the necessity of faith and repentance.

Faith and repentance are given when the forgiven person is regenerated

 

[Hosanna]

No it's not

OK...what are these False sins your talking about?

 

[TomL]

Yup, the word is one of the things that comes before and empowers belief … but many hear only foolishness and are not saved … so there is more (like the difference between Lydia and the Pharisees who both “heard the word” - one unto life and one to damnation).

And I noted the difference between Lydia and Pharisees who were hypocrits, serpants and brood of vipers

According to scripture men can respond believingly or not

Deuteronomy 30:11–19 (NASB95) — 11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 “Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 “See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17 “But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. 19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Joshua 24:15–27 (NASB95) — 15 “If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods; 17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 “The LORD drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the LORD, for He is our God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins. 20 “If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you after He has done good to you.” 21 The people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the LORD.” 22 Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 “Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and incline your hearts to the LORD, the God of Israel.” 24 The people said to Joshua, “We will serve the LORD our God and we will obey His voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the LORD. 27 Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be for a witness against us, for it has heard all the words of the LORD which He spoke to us; thus it shall be for a witness against you, so that you do not deny your God.”

Romans 10:8–10 (NASB95) — 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

OK...what are these False sins your talking about?

What are you talking about

 

[TomL]

Faith and repentance are given when the forgiven person is regenerated

Nope

Men without faith are not forgiven and do not receive the Spirit

Unbelievers do not receive the Spirit

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 3:2 (LEB) — 2 I want only to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5 (LEB) — 5 Therefore does the one who gives you the Spirit and who works miracles among you do so by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ephesians 1:13 (LEB) — 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)

Galatians 3:14 (LEB) — 14 in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Unbelieving non-repentant men are not forgiven.


Acts 3:19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Luke 13:3 I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.