Taking sides between Islam and Judaism

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
So what peoples are the better choice? The people of Islam or the people of Judaism?

I made this choice a long time ago. I decided I wasn't going to treat the children of Ishmael any differently than the children of Isaac. How can I when they are both in unbelief?

It is time to "take sides" in this. My side is they both are wrong and their unbelief will damn them both.

I ask for this in the name of Abraham. I'm asking you to do what Abraham refused to do. Choose between his own children......

There is something beautiful in this discussion. I pray you all can see it.

So what is your choice?
 
God will deal Islam.

God will continual to bless Jewish people.

I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you; and all the families of the earth will be blessed through you.”
Genesis 12:2-3

Good start....

God promised to make a great nation of Ishmael.

Gen 17:20 As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. He shall father twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation.

So. You have the same promise given to Islam. We know that has happened.

How does that fact change your position?

Abraham never chose between his two sons. They were both at his funeral.

They both were circumcised.

Gen_17:26 That very day Abraham and his son Ishmael were circumcised.
 
Good start....

God promised to make a great nation of Ishmael.

Gen 17:20 As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. He shall father twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation.

So. You have the same promise given to Islam. We know that has happened.

How does that fact change your position?

Abraham never chose between his two sons. They were both at his funeral.

They both were circumcised.

Gen_17:26 That very day Abraham and his son Ishmael were circumcised.
According to Islamic tradition, Muhammad descends from the biblical Ishmael through the Hashem tribe. But I think he may have forfeited God's blessing when He fell for Satan's lie in the cave where he had the vision. Also the God of the Bible and the deity of Quran are not the same. They call us people of the book (the Bible) which they do not believe.

My position is still the same. "It's in God's hands".
 
According to Islamic tradition, Muhammad descends from the biblical Ishmael through the Hashem tribe. But I think he may have forfeited God's blessing when He fell for Satan's lie in the cave where he had the vision. Also the God of the Bible and the deity of Quran are not the same. They call us people of the book (the Bible) which they do not believe.

My position is still the same. "It's in God's hands".
Definitely.
I will add that most people do not realize how similar the promises are between the sons of Abraham. A couple more examples.

God promised 12 princes for Ishmael.
God sent Jonah to Ninevah which included the descendants of Ishmael.
We know Jonah reacted.

There are others. I'll see how this goes in response. Thanks for participating.
 
I had this saved in my email since 2011. It's from Citizen Warrior

Allah's Final Answer on the Question of Non-Muslims
Posted: 05 Aug 2011 02:46 PM PDT
SOME VERSES of the Quran have been abrogated
. The abrogation principle basically says that when something from a later chapter (known as a sura) conflicts with something from an earlier chapter, the later one is the better one.

Have you ever wondered which is the last chapter? And what does it say? Since abrogation uses chronological order, the last chapter would probably not contain any abrogated verses (unless an earlier verse within the last chapter conflicted with a later one in the same chapter). Otherwise, if the chapter contained any information about non-Muslims, it would be the "last word" on the subject.

If you look at the Chronological Order of the Qur'an
, you can see the last chapter is called Nasr. Every chapter has a name. In the traditional order, Nasr is the 110th chapter. But it was really the 114th; the last one "revealed" to Mohammad. He died 80 days later.

But the last chapter doesn't say much. It's just three verses basically saying "When Allah has achieved victory and conquered lots of people and when they are becoming Muslims in great numbers, praise Allah and ask for forgiveness." That's about it.

But if you look up the second to last chapter, called Taubah (which means "Ultimatum"), you will find it says a great deal about non-Muslims. In the traditional chapter order, this is chapter 9. Here are a few choice verses:


9:5 Slay the idolaters wherever you find them.

9:6 Those who submit and convert to Islam will be treated well. (Those who don't submit will be killed. See previous verse.)

9:7-9 Don't make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted.

9:11 Treat converts to Islam well, but kill those who refuse to convert (see 9:5).

9:12-14 Fight the disbelievers! Allah is on your side; he will give you victory.

9:23 Don't make friends with your disbelieving family members. Those who do so are wrong-doers.

9:29 Fight against Christians and Jews "until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low."

9:33 The "Religion of Truth" (Islam) must prevail, by force if necessary, over all other religions.

9:41 Fight for Allah with your wealth and whatever weapons are available to you.

9:42 Those who refuse to fight for Allah (claiming they are unable) are liars who have destroyed their souls.

9:73 Fight the disbelievers and hypocrites. Be harsh with them. They are all going to hell anyway.

9:81-83 Those who refuse to give their wealth and lives to Allah will face the fire of hell.

9:85 Those who refuse to fight for Allah will be treated (along with their children) as unbelievers.

9:111 Believers must fight for Allah. They must kill and be killed. Allah will reward them for it.

9:123 Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you.

This is Allah's "last word" on tolerance and peace toward non-Muslims. If nothing else up to this point had abrogated the tolerant verses, the above verses completely wipe out every last positive verse in the Quran for non-Muslims.


The translations above are based on the Skeptics Annotated Quran
. You can check the verses above (by using the verse number) to double-check their meaning in any Quran. You will find these are accurate summaries of the verses. Lots of web sites have the entire Quran available to read online. Here are a few. Just look up Sura 9 and scroll down to the verse number you're looking for.

In an article entitled, Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam
, David Bukay writes:

Chapter 9 of the Quran, in English called "Ultimatum," is the most important concerning the issues of abrogation and jihad against unbelievers. It is the only chapter that does not begin "in the name of God, most benevolent, ever-merciful." Commentators agree that Muhammad received this revelation in 631, the year before his death, when he had returned to Mecca and was at his strongest. Muhammad bin Ismail al-Bukhari, compiler of one of the most authoritative collections of the hadith, said that "Ultimatum" was the last chapter revealed to Muhammad although others suggest it might have been penultimate. Regardless, coming at or near the very end of Muhammad's life, "Ultimatum" trumps earlier revelations.

Because this chapter contains violent passages, it abrogates previous peaceful content. Muhsin Khan, the translator of Sahih al-Bukhari, says God revealed "Ultimatum" in order to discard restraint and to command Muslims to fight against all the pagans as well as against the People of the Book if they do not embrace Islam or until they pay religious taxes. So, at first aggressive fighting was forbidden; it later became permissible (2:190) and subsequently obligatory (9:5). This "verse of the sword" abrogated, canceled, and replaced 124 verses that called for tolerance, compassion, and peace.

The Egyptian theologian Abu Suyuti said that everything in the Quran about forgiveness and peace is abrogated by verse 9:5, which orders Muslims to fight the unbelievers and to establish God's kingdom on earth.

Abrogation had a significant impact on the Quran, and is one of the primary reasons the traditional order of the Quran (with chapters arranged from the longest to the shortest chapter) so effectively prevents anyone who doesn't know about abrogation from understanding what it really says. Only 43 chapters are not affected by abrogation. This means most of the chapters of the Quran cannot be taken at face value.

But with the tools like the Chronological Order
and CSPI's lineup of educational materials and knowledge about abrogation, the Quran can be understood by everybody.

As soon as you read the Quran, you realize immediately that other non-Muslims need to be alerted to this political agenda because non-Muslims are the target for the political program at the core of Islamic doctrine. You will (and should) start encouraging others to read the Quran
. You will realize that non-Muslims' awareness of this political and totalitarian manifesto will be the key to preserving our future freedom.
 
So what peoples are the better choice? The people of Islam or the people of Judaism?
Judaism.

How can I when they are both in unbelief?
The Children of Isaac have the words of the LORD and are blind to its TRUTH about the CHRIST (MESSIAH).
The Children of Ishmael have the words of SATAN and embrace the way of death of their Father (the god of this world).
It seems an easy choice to me to pity the former and stand in firm opposition to the will of the latter as we pray for both.

It is time to "take sides" in this. My side is they both are wrong and their unbelief will damn them both.
I cannot argue with the "damnation of unbelief", but theirs is no worse than mine was before God took mercy on me. If the whole truth was known, most Palestinians are far more deserving of God's mercy than I was. However, God chose to show mercy on whom He will show mercy. [I can only be grateful.]

I ask for this in the name of Abraham. I'm asking you to do what Abraham refused to do. Choose between his own children......

There is something beautiful in this discussion. I pray you all can see it.

So what is your choice?
Asked and answered (for me).
 

So you believe Abraham preferred Isaac to Ishmael?

The Children of Isaac have the words of the LORD and are blind to its TRUTH about the CHRIST (MESSIAH).
The Children of Ishmael have the words of SATAN and embrace the way of death of their Father (the god of this world).
It seems an easy choice to me to pity the former and stand in firm opposition to the will of the latter as we pray for both.

Muhammad is 600 years after Christ. Christs died for the children of Ishmael and the children of Isaac. Muhammad drew Ishmael away from God. Muhammad is a liar. So are the fathers of the children of Isaac that reject Jesus Christ. Therefore you are making a choice that Abraham didn't make. He loved both his sons and the children of Keturah. God has made of twain one new man. Thusly making peace.

Ephesians 2:15
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

I cannot argue with the "damnation of unbelief", but theirs is no worse than mine was before God took mercy on me. If the whole truth was known, most Palestinians are far more deserving of God's mercy than I was. However, God chose to show mercy on whom He will show mercy. [I can only be grateful.]


Asked and answered (for me).

This is part of the issue with this position where the children of Isaac are supposedly superior in election. In realty, they are not. God has concluded all of humanity in unbelief that he might have mercy upon them all.

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
 
So you believe Abraham preferred Isaac to Ishmael?
Yes, but that is irrelevant.
[Abraham favored Ishmael before Isaac was born - per his conversation with GOD - but Abraham chose to send Ishmael away when forced to choose between the two ... not that Mr "she is my sister" is a tower of moral virtue.]

The question that YOU asked of ME was:
"So what peoples are the better choice? The people of Islam or the people of Judaism?"

and MY answer to YOUR question was:
"Judaism."
 
Yes, but that is irrelevant.
[Abraham favored Ishmael before Isaac was born - per his conversation with GOD - but Abraham chose to send Ishmael away when forced to choose between the two ... not that Mr "she is my sister" is a tower of moral virtue.]

The question that YOU asked of ME was:
"So what peoples are the better choice? The people of Islam or the people of Judaism?"

and MY answer to YOUR question was:
"Judaism."

It is not irrelevant at all. You have this belief that God does what He wants regardless of how people feel. God cared about Abraham and listened to Abraham.

Why do you not believe God wasn't trying to please Abraham?
 
So what?
Are you conflating Abraham and God?

God's opinion matters.
Abraham's opinion ... not so much.

I already knew this before you answer and before you made your first response. Your theology requires this.

You're beliefs are actually distancing you from God. It is why you selectively respond to my comments. Can you deal with everything I said?
 
You're beliefs are actually distancing you from God. It is why you selectively respond to my comments. Can you deal with everything I said?
To what end?

You opened this conversation with a question about MY OPINION on choosing between two world religions (one founded on the OT and the other dictated by a demon), and are now mansplainin' to me that I am not as close to God as you are unless I agree with your answer.

I think this conversation has become unprofitable for me.
  • You asked.
  • I answered.
  • You have rejected my answer of my opinion.
So I leave you with the blessing for the Czar: " May G-d bless you, and keep you …… far away from us" - [the Rabbi from Fiddler on the Roof]
 
To what end?

You opened this conversation with a question about MY OPINION on choosing between two world religions (one founded on the OT and the other dictated by a demon), and are now mansplainin' to me that I am not as close to God as you are unless I agree with your answer.

I was very detailed in how I compared your view of election to Jews view of election in Abraham.

No. You don't have to agree. I simply told the truth. Your view matches how Jews considered themselves elected. That is the truth. You see yourself elected while considering the majority of others damned. Those just like you. Jews taught the same things.

Islam has changed significantly since Mohammad. We even know that the descendents of Mohammad (not Ishmael themselves) destroyed variant editions of the Quran. I'm not promoting Islam. I'm not promoting Judaism. Both are full of traditions. Those traditions are what caused their damnation. I see no difference in the people themselves. Both need Christ. I see no superior races of men upon this earth. None. I see no promises for Eternal Life without Jesus Christ.

All men equal in damnation and all men equal in salvation.

There are many Arabs that call Jesus Christ "Lord and Savior".

I think this conversation has become unprofitable for me.
  • You asked.
  • I answered.
  • You have rejected my answer of my opinion.
So I leave you with the blessing for the Czar: " May G-d bless you, and keep you …… far away from us" - [the Rabbi from Fiddler on the Roof]

Excuses.
 
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