Scriptural Baptism

[TomL]

The question is whether the Pentecost event is the same kind of thing. If it is, I stand corrected. But the way the Holy Spirit works with an individual and a group of believers is different.

If an entire group 'receives the Holy Spirit'.. that doesn't always mean getting saved. When an individual is 'filled with the Holy Spirit' .. this doesn't usually mean getting saved.

If you see 'them, they, we'... then the subject is the whole group. For eg.. in Acts 19..Paul seeing disciples of Apollos, who had believed. He asks them if they have received the Holy Ghost. They said they don' t know if there be a Holy Ghost.. Paul asks about their baptism also.. but not about their salvation. Not receiving the Holy Spirit as a whole group does not mean they haven't already been saved. These are disciples who believed.

Apollos was mighty in the scriptures, but he didn't know the right way of baptism. They were re-baptised the right way.


About Apollos and the disciples who Paul saw:

Act 18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

(Act 19:1) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, (same group Apollos was with)
(Act 19:2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
(Act 19:3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. (Paul is not asking about their salvation)
(Act 19:4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
(Act 19:5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
(Act 19:6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

The Holy Spirit coming 'on' a group, is not an individual receiving eternal life.

The initial experience is indeed saving in the new covenant

1 Corinthians 12:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

In the verse you quote

(Act 19:4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
(Act 19:5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
(Act 19:6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

There is no evidence they had previously believe on Christ'

further it appears they were disciples of John

 

[TomL]

Being completed (perfected), the Word no longer needed physical confirmation because it now can confirm itself. Faith cannot be at it's fullest when there is physical proof!

I would say spiritual gifts accomplish more than that.

 

[TomL]

We live in a time where everyone has a word, interpretation or theology, whether right or wrong!

These are the last words of my saviour
Mark 16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Not he that is not baptised will be damned.

 

[360watt]

The initial experience is indeed saving in the new covenant

1 Corinthians 12:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

In the verse you quote

(Act 19:4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
(Act 19:5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
(Act 19:6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

There is no evidence they had previously believe on Christ'

further it appears t

They were disciples of Apollos but baptised

The initial experience is indeed saving in the new covenant

1 Corinthians 12:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

In the verse you quote

(Act 19:4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
(Act 19:5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
(Act 19:6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

There is no evidence they had previously believe on Christ'

further it appears they were disciples of John

Well, the disciples with Apollos had believed through grace.

This is the same group Paul saw.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Not he that is not baptised will be damned.

No.
The BELIEVING is the key NOT THE BAPTIZING

Water gets one wet and cleanses the flesh but does not cleanse the heart & soul.

Only the belief in the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ will redeem man from the bondage of sin & unbelief.

 

[TomL]

No.
The BELIEVING is the key NOT THE BAPTIZING

Water gets one wet and cleanses the flesh but does not cleanse the heart & soul.

Only the belief in the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ will redeem man from the bondage of sin & unbelief.

Never stated the believing is the baptism. It is the Spirits work which is the baptism

 

[TomL]

They were disciples of Apollos but baptised


Well, the disciples with Apollos had believed through grace.

This is the same group Paul saw.

They were disciples of John

(Act 19:4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
(Act 19:5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
(Act 19:6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

The is no reason to mention John

 

[TomL]

The question is whether the Pentecost event is the same kind of thing. If it is, I stand corrected. But the way the Holy Spirit works with an individual and a group of believers is different.

If an entire group 'receives the Holy Spirit'.. that doesn't always mean getting saved. When an individual is 'filled with the Holy Spirit' .. this doesn't usually mean getting saved.

If you see 'them, they, we'... then the subject is the whole group. For eg.. in Acts 19..Paul seeing disciples of Apollos, who had believed. He asks them if they have received the Holy Ghost. They said they don' t know if there be a Holy Ghost.. Paul asks about their baptism also.. but not about their salvation. Not receiving the Holy Spirit as a whole group does not mean they haven't already been saved. These are disciples who believed.

Apollos was mighty in the scriptures, but he didn't know the right way of baptism. They were re-baptised the right way.


About Apollos and the disciples who Paul saw:

Act 18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

(Act 19:1) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, (same group Apollos was with)
(Act 19:2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
(Act 19:3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. (Paul is not asking about their salvation)
(Act 19:4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
(Act 19:5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
(Act 19:6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

The Holy Spirit coming 'on' a group, is not an individual receiving eternal life.

As was stated

No it happened multiple times

Acts 11:15–16 (ESV) — 15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Never stated the believing is the baptism. It is the Spirits work which is the baptism

Sorry.
Maybe I misunderstood.
I thought you may have been referring to the water baptism that some think will save them.

Ephesians 4:5-6

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

[TomL]

Sorry.
Maybe I misunderstood.
I thought you may have been referring to the water baptism that some think will save them.

Ephesians 4:5-6

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

No that is not my position

 

[L.A.M.B.]

No that is not my position

Nor mine !

 

[TomL]

Nor mine !

OK

 

[mailmandan]

The initial experience is indeed saving in the new covenant

1 Corinthians 12:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

In the verse you quote

(Act 19:4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
(Act 19:5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
(Act 19:6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

There is no evidence they had previously believe on Christ'

further it appears they were disciples of John

Amen! In regard to Acts 19:2, their answer to Paul's question, “we have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit” demonstrated that they did not yet believe in Christ Jesus unto salvation. Paul further asked, "into what then were you baptized? They said, “into John’s baptism.” Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” When they heard this, they were afterwards baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. There would have been no need to re-baptize them if they had already believed in Jesus Christ unto salvation.

 

[TomL]

Amen! In regard to Acts 19:2, their answer to Paul's question, “we have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit” demonstrated that they did not yet believe in Christ Jesus unto salvation. Paul further asked, "into what then were you baptized? They said, “into John’s baptism.” Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” When they heard this, they were afterwards baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. There would have been no need to re-baptize them if they had already believed in Jesus Christ unto salvation.

Yep

 

[NetChaplain]

This world still needs physical proof of God's word.

We just have to believe God's Word first, then there can be proof!

 

[NetChaplain]

How do we help unbelief ??????????

If their name is in the Book of Life they will become believers without fail! If their name isn't in the Book, it manifests they will never believe.

 

[NetChaplain]

I would say spiritual gifts accomplish more than that.

Yes, when they were in force there were many things the gifts provided. But I believe their primary purpose was what was the most important, which is getting everyone's attention ("confirming") to the Word of God.

 

[360watt]

Amen! In regard to Acts 19:2, their answer to Paul's question, “we have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit” demonstrated that they did not yet believe in Christ Jesus unto salvation. Paul further asked, "into what then were you baptized? They said, “into John’s baptism.” Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” When they heard this, they were afterwards baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. There would have been no need to re-baptize them if they had already believed in Jesus Christ unto salvation.

Okay, well I could change my position on this, but there are disciples that were with Apollos who believed thru grace in Acts 18. The disciples Paul saw had already believed in Acts 19... 'since you believed'. It's the sane group.

A group receiving the Holy Spirit isn't an individual getting saved.

Also.. being baptised unto John's baptism as these disciples had done would usually mean they had believed on Jesus Christ before hand. Apollos didn't know the right way of baptism..but the group he was with were disciples who believed through grace.

 

[mailmandan]

Okay, well I could change my position on this, but there are disciples that were with Apollos who believed thru grace in Acts 18. The disciples Paul saw had already believed in Acts 19... 'since you believed'. It's the sane group.

A group receiving the Holy Spirit isn't an individual getting saved.

Paul seemed to assume at first they were already believers, yet why would Paul go on to say,. “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus" if they truly were already believers? Also, why the need to baptize them again if they truly were already believers?

 

[TomL]

Yes, when they were in force there were many things the gifts provided. But I believe their primary purpose was what was the most important, which is getting everyone's attention ("confirming") to the Word of God.

Tend toward agreement but would not put God inn a box saying what he could or could not do.