Rapture Time

[praise_yeshua]

Can you name parameters set forth in scripture that must be in position prior to the LORD'S Return?

It has long be hard for me to believe in the "Rapture". No doubt Jesus will return. I look forward to that event.

I would question the lack of a Temple and priestly order of Aaron being available to serve the Temple. If the Rapture is true and relative to this moment, then how can a Temple be built so quickly and the priestly order of Aaron be determined to serve it in just 7 years?

I personally do not see any desire among the secular leaders to even begin the process and it would require their efforts to accomplish.

 

[DavidTree]

Oh well, I'll give it a shot. From my heart I believe we should all watch and be ready. I like what this post said:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/rapture-time.1058/post-34239Oh well I'll give it a shot
Opie : Pa when is Jesus coming back?
Pa : I don't know Opie. You see we're on the Welcoming committee and not the Planning committee.

No doubt that is a VALID and TRUTHFUL position of the spirit, mind and heart we all must embrace.

2 Thessalonians 5:1-11
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be [a]sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

11Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.


Within this passage of scripture do you see any parameters given?

 

[Rockson]

Some make the claim that JESUS was not speaking to His Church in Matthew ch24.

How can we know if that is a valid claim(ie=Truth), an opinion or a case of mistaken identity?

I think it's a real strange claim to say that. Seems to me in the early Pre-Trib days they never claimed this. They'd always quote verses from it as if it's the rapture. (one taken the other left) Even the early 70's movies "Thief in the Night" . As years went on Post Trib and other writings came forth to challenge them and all the

sudden they changed their tune and came out with an unusual statement Mt 24 isn't for the church. But when you read Mt 24:42 onwards you just have to conclude it is for the church and the DAY it talks about there has to be the DAY spoken of earlier in the chapter.

 

[DavidTree]

It has long be hard for me to believe in the "Rapture". No doubt Jesus will return. I look forward to that event.

I would question the lack of a Temple and priestly order of Aaron being available to serve the Temple. If the Rapture is true and relative to this moment, then how can a Temple be built so quickly and the priestly order of Aaron be determined to serve it in just 7 years?

I personally do not see any desire among the secular leaders to even begin the process and it would require their efforts to accomplish.

Well this is very interesting indeed - thank you for this.

Personally, i have not yet solidified that there will be another Temple built prior to our LORD Jesus Christ Return.

What scripture(s) do you know that would speak of a 3rd Temple to be built in/on earthbound Jerusalem heading forward?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Well this is very interesting indeed - thank you for this.

Personally, i have not yet solidified that there will be another Temple built prior to our LORD Jesus Christ Return.

What scripture(s) do you know that would speak of a 3rd Temple to be built in/on earthbound Jerusalem heading forward?

From David Jeremiah.....

Will We See the Rebuilding of the Temple Before the Rapture? - This Could Be the Day - DavidJeremiah.org

www.davidjeremiah.org

But according to Scripture, the temple will be rebuilt by the middle of the Tribulation. Paul foresaw a day when the Antichrist will sit "as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God" (2 Thessalonians 2:4). In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus referred to the restored temple and its desecration: "When you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place... then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.... For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matthew 24:15-16, 21).

Most of the arguments that I have seen over the years to deal with this involves simply stating that God can do anything. I believe He can but I'm not sure that applies here.

 

[DavidTree]

I think it's a real strange claim to say that. Seems to me in the early Pre-Trib days they never claimed this. They'd always quote verses from it as if it's the rapture. (one taken the other left) Even the early 70's movies "Thief in the Night" . As years went on Post Trib and other writings came forth to challenge them and all the

sudden they changed their tune and came out with an unusual statement Mt 24 isn't for the church. But when you read Mt 24:42 onwards you just have to conclude it is for the church and the DAY it talks about there has to be the DAY spoken of earlier in the chapter.

From a 'pre-trib rapture' viewpoint it is absolutely ESSENTIAL that Matthew ch24 is NOT speaking to His Church, for if it is the entire 'pre-trib' doctrine is exposed as being fraudulent and man-made.

FYI = i do not believe there exists, nor can be found, a single scripture that is declarative of a 'pre-trib rapture'.

 

[DavidTree]

From David Jeremiah.....

Will We See the Rebuilding of the Temple Before the Rapture? - This Could Be the Day - DavidJeremiah.org

www.davidjeremiah.org

But according to Scripture, the temple will be rebuilt by the middle of the Tribulation. Paul foresaw a day when the Antichrist will sit "as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God" (2 Thessalonians 2:4). In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus referred to the restored temple and its desecration: "When you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place... then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.... For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matthew 24:15-16, 21).

Most of the arguments that I have seen over the years to deal with this involves simply stating that God can do anything. I believe He can but I'm not sure that applies here.

YES and again thank you.

TTA(Thoughts-Thinking-Assesing) from Scripture = Could the 3rd Temple already be present on earth even now as we speak, whereby they will fulfill Christ's Prophecy?

 

[DavidTree]

I have to step out know and take my son to college (local).

Be back later - AND - Thank you to everyone who is responding, including the silent watchers.

 

[praise_yeshua]

YES and again thank you.

TTA(Thoughts-Thinking-Assesing) from Scripture = Could the 3rd Temple already be present on earth even now as we speak, whereby they will fulfill Christ's Prophecy?

I'm just going to say it and I don't have any idea if it is true, I usually avoid end time event discuss to a degree because I've seen more separation caused in conjecture than I believe the argument is often worth. Don't get me wrong. It is essential that we say that Jesus Christ shall return. It is part of the Gospel. However, we shouldn't overstate what we know about it....

Having said that.....

It might be a supernatural occurrence that establishes it but I do not know. I've seen over the years where some try to say that certain things already exist under the Temple Mount. I have no idea. I know I love Jesus and long for Him. I would never want to discourage others from looking for His appearing. Even so come Lord Jesus.

 

[DavidTree]

I'm just going to say it and I don't have any idea if it is true, I usually avoid end time event discuss to a degree because I've seen more separation caused in conjecture than I believe the argument is often worth. Don't get me wrong. It is essential that we say that Jesus Christ shall return. It is part of the Gospel. However, we shouldn't overstate what we know about it....

Having said that.....

It might be a supernatural occurrence that establishes it but I do not know. I've seen over the years where some try to say that certain things already exist under the Temple Mount. I have no idea. I know I love Jesus and long for Him. I would never want to discourage others from looking for His appearing. Even so come Lord Jesus.

Are you a Jewish Believer in Adonai Yeshua HaMoshiach?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Are you a Jewish Believer in Adonai Yeshua HaMoshiach?

Gentile. I've had my DNA and ancestry check and I'm originally from central England. Through Christ I'm an heir of all things. I tend to see Christ as the only Eternal Heir of Abraham and that there really is no division between the natural seed and spiritual seed of Abraham in Christ. He is the Heir of the faithful in Abraham. Faith to Faith. Seed to seed.

I have spent a significant amount of time in my life discussion Judaism. I believe it is essential to having a good theology.

 

[Rockson]

From a 'pre-trib rapture' viewpoint it is absolutely ESSENTIAL that Matthew ch24 is NOT speaking to His Church

Yes I know it is for you have these verses,

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:‘The sun will be darkened,and the moon will not give its light;the stars will fall from the sky,and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’
30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

So because this gathering takes place AFTER THE TRIBULATON OF THOSE DAYS, you can't have the gather in verse 31 talking about the church. But then you have the verses Mt 24:32,44 very clearly seems like it's talking to the church. or some type of early rapture.

My belief is a Pre-Wrath rapture. Not Pre Trib but Pre Wrath. In a nut shell goes like this.....Rev 6 church is still here.....all the things of Mt 24 are in Rev 6. You see great tribultion at the 5th Seal again...in Rev 6....but that's not wrath.....even says so end of Rev 6....for the great day of his wrath is come....meaning come now at the end of 6....Church is raptured BEFORE the wrath....Rev 7 says first though the 144,000 are sealed and look at what you see in the next verse....surprise, surprise.....

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:“Salvation to our God,who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb!” Rev 7:9,10

That's the raptured saints.....AFTER tribulation but the wrath doesn't start until Rev 8 .

One can even see for futher proof.....John asked the angel who these people are.....and he tells them they're the saints which have come out of great tribulation. OK so they went through tribulation.....but weren't there when the wrath begins....which takes place in Rev 8:5

So there is a take away rapture sort of like PreTrib but not quite. It's Pre Wrath. And this means all lines up for Matt 24 too. Compare Matt 24, to Rev 6. I think you'll find it's a complete match.

FYI = i do not believe there exists, nor can be found, a single scripture that is declarative of a 'pre-trib rapture'.

I think I can show and have though a PreWrath one. And I think it makes all Matt 24 make sense.

 

[dwight92070]

Is there anything that must happen before the Rapture?​

Is there anything that must happen before the Rapture? - AskBible.org

Question: Is there anything that should happen before the Rapture? If you are studying the end times described in the Bible and are anticipating our

www.askbible.org

Articles like this one are not helpful at all. The following quote reveals the bias immediately and where they're coming from:

"While there is no one verse that specifically addresses the rapture, understanding the timing of the end-time events including the rapture is a matter of deduction based on a careful study of the passages that address the Lord’s return, and one can only arrive at a rapture that precedes the 7 year tribulation period."

Really, that's the ONLY conclusion that we can arrive at? That's unbelievable. Even if that were true, and I don't believe it is, notice how they've already gone ahead and done your thinking for you - and conveniently they have already come to the "right" conclusion:

i.e. the "rapture precedes the 7 year tribulation period".

First, because of the deception of dispensationalism (dsp), we have to define "rapture". Before dsp came along in about 1830, the rapture meant the event described in 1 Thess. 4:15-17. In those verses we see the rapture taking place immediately after the 2nd coming of the Lord. This is the true Biblical rapture - specifically vs. 17 "Then we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP (rapturo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, ..."

The rapture is NOT secret, where only believers can see Jesus coming. "Every eye will see Him." Rev. 1:7 He will come IN FLAMING FIRE with HIS MIGHTY ANGELS and with millions of believers who have died previously. We are not told that we will DISAPPEAR when He comes, but we will be caught up into the clouds. If we are still alive at the rapture, people will SEE us rise into the clouds. The rapture is NOT a quiet event. Since it occurs at the 2nd coming there will be much noise - The Lord will descend with a SHOUT, with the VOICE of the archangel, with the TRUMPET of God.

The rapture DOES NOT OCCUR 7 years before the 2nd coming. It occurs AT the 2nd coming.

The 7 year tribulation is also the invention of dsp. You can't simply transport Daniel's 70th week into the future, much less label it "the seven-year tribulation". Those specific words are not found anywhere in the Bible. It is much more believeable that the 70th week came right after the 69th week --DUH. There was NO time gap in the first 69 weeks, so what makes us think we can INSERT a time gap of over 2000 years between the 69th week and the 70th week? ONLY A DISPENSATIONAL BIAS produces such manipulation of scripture and the TRUTH is ignored.

 

[civic]

Yes I know it is for you have these verses,

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:‘The sun will be darkened,and the moon will not give its light;the stars will fall from the sky,and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’
30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

So because this gathering takes place AFTER THE TRIBULATON OF THOSE DAYS, you can't have the gather in verse 31 talking about the church. But then you have the verses Mt 24:32,44 very clearly seems like it's talking to the church. or some type of early rapture.

My belief is a Pre-Wrath rapture. Not Pre Trib but Pre Wrath. In a nut shell goes like this.....Rev 6 church is still here.....all the things of Mt 24 are in Rev 6. You see great tribultion at the 5th Seal again...in Rev 6....but that's not wrath.....even says so end of Rev 6....for the great day of his wrath is come....meaning come now at the end of 6....Church is raptured BEFORE the wrath....Rev 7 says first though the 144,000 are sealed and look at what you see in the next verse....surprise, surprise.....

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:“Salvation to our God,who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb!” Rev 7:9,10

That's the raptured saints.....AFTER tribulation but the wrath doesn't start until Rev 8 .

One can even see for futher proof.....John asked the angel who these people are.....and he tells them they're the saints which have come out of great tribulation. OK so they went through tribulation.....but weren't there when the wrath begins....which takes place in Rev 8:5

So there is a take away rapture sort of like PreTrib but not quite. It's Pre Wrath. And this means all lines up for Matt 24 too. Compare Matt 24, to Rev 6. I think you'll find it's a complete match.


I think I can show and have though a PreWrath one. And I think it makes all Matt 24 make sense.

The million dollar question is when Jesus is addressing the disciples question about His return is He dealing with the nation of Israel ( His Elect ) or with the church ?

I believe He is discussing Israel in Matthew 24 and not the church. I'm also a pre trib but not dogmatic .

 

[Rowan]

In Revelation 3:10, Jesus told the church in the ancient town of Philadelphia: “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world.”

Here, then, is a summary of what happens: The Lord Jesus Christ will return from heaven, bringing the souls of those who have already died with Him. The bodies of those dead saints will be resurrected and changed, and then the bodies of those Christians who are alive and remain at His coming will also be changed.

When this happens, God is going to hover over this universe, and all who have accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, those who have been resurrected and those who have never died, are going to be snatched up—pulled right out of the population, suctioned off the planet. It’s going to happen instantly. No time to get ready. No prelude. No preliminaries.


David Jeremiah, The Great Disappearance: 31 Ways to Be Rapture Ready

 

[Rockson]

The million dollar question is when Jesus is addressing the disciples question about His return is He dealing with the nation of Israel ( His Elect ) or with the church ?

I believe He is discussing Israel in Matthew 24 and not the church. I'm also a pre trib but not dogmatic .

I'm not absolutely dogmatic about my thoughts on it either. Have friends that believe all different ways about it and I know Civic you would agree. I think it is quite a maze of a puzzle to come to a conclusion on especially when there's so much imposing on a text that's not necessarily spelled out. I can be guilty of that too.

So with this Matt 24: 31 verse we read, "And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

So yes many say the elect is Israel. Of course can be and is. The OT is full of the statements.....Gentiles could even then become a Jew but I get you....the elect was Israel. But the Gentiles were brought in too to become the elect in the NT just as much as Israel. Jesus knew this would happen that God was making one new man In Christ. And then we have these clear verses below,

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth. Rom 8:23

Well we both know of the Christians in Rome Paul had no problem referring to them as the elect right? If that didn't mean us the church we could wonder if we've been properly justified. So elect it seems wasn't used exclusively for Israel.

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:12

Of course meaning all the church...the elect of God.

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1 Peter 1:2

And another one above.

So I could be wrong but I sincerely just can't image that when Jesus said he'd gather the elect that he didn't understand it wouldn't mean just any and all Christian believers.

 

[Rockson]

In Revelation 3:10, Jesus told the church in the ancient town of Philadelphia: “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world.”

Just curious. What does the hour of trial mean to you?

 

[civic]

I'm not absolutely dogmatic about my thoughts on it either. Have friends that believe all different ways about it and I know Civic you would agree. I think it is quite a maze of a puzzle to come to a conclusion on especially when there's so much imposing on a text that's not necessarily spelled out. I can be guilty of that too.

So with this Matt 24: 31 verse we read, "And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

So yes many say the elect is Israel. Of course can be and is. The OT is full of the statements.....Gentiles could even then become a Jew but I get you....the elect was Israel. But the Gentiles were brought in too to become the elect in the NT just as much as Israel. Jesus knew this would happen that God was making one new man In Christ. And then we have these clear verses below,

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth. Rom 8:23

Well we both know of the Christians in Rome Paul had no problem referring to them as the elect right? If that didn't mean us the church we could wonder if we've been properly justified. So elect it seems wasn't used exclusively for Israel.

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:12

Of course meaning all the church...the elect of God.

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1 Peter 1:2

And another one above.

So I could be wrong but I sincerely just can't image that when Jesus said he'd gather the elect that he didn't understand it wouldn't mean just any and all Christian believers.

One thing is in Matthew 24 the gentiles were not considered Gods elect. It wasn’t believed until Paul came on the scene. So the default position/ understanding with the disciples would be Israel, the Jews.

 

[Rockson]

One thing is in Matthew 24 the gentiles were not considered Gods elect. It wasn’t believed until Paul came on the scene

That is true and perhaps a weakness to my argument. I still lean though that all he was basically saying is everyone that is saved will be going. He chose the elect word for of course it is those who are justified. They're in Christ Jesus who is the elect so all the elect go. I think that's how the disciples would have taken that too...all or anyone serving God will be gathered.

Also there's only so many words he could have used. We say "church" but church means this,

ekklésia: an assembly, a (religious) congregation
Original Word: ἐκκλησία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: ekklésia
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-klay-see'-ah)
Definition: an assembly, a (religious) congregation
Usage: an assembly, congregation, church; the Church, the whole body of Christian believers.

I wouldn't think when Jesus was even saying the word church he was meaning some type of unique individual structure that didn't include all Gentiles and Jews alike. Elect would cover all the possibilities of who they were....they are the ones right with God and living for God. So he didn't say he was gathering together the

church.....wouldn't need to elect are Christians.....and he wouldn't say gathering together the Christians.....the term wasn't ever used by Jesus even not until later in the book of Acts. So elect in my mind seems the only term he would have used.

 

[civic]

That is true and perhaps a weakness to my argument. I still lean though that all he was basically saying is everyone that is saved will be going. He chose the elect word for of course it is those who are justified. They're in Christ Jesus who is the elect so all the elect go. I think that's how the disciples would have taken that too...all or anyone serving God will be gathered.

Also there's only so many words he could have used. We say "church" but church means this,

ekklésia: an assembly, a (religious) congregation
Original Word: ἐκκλησία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: ekklésia
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-klay-see'-ah)
Definition: an assembly, a (religious) congregation
Usage: an assembly, congregation, church; the Church, the whole body of Christian believers.

I wouldn't think when Jesus was even saying the word church he was meaning some type of unique individual structure that didn't include all Gentiles and Jews alike. Elect would cover all the possibilities of who they were....they are the ones right with God and living for God. So he didn't say he was gathering together the

church.....wouldn't need to elect are Christians.....and he wouldn't say gathering together the Christians.....the term wasn't ever used by Jesus even not until later in the book of Acts. So elect in my mind seems the only term he would have used.

Its one of those fun topics of discussion and to see the other POV's out there but its not salvific which is why I'm noy dogmatic about it. But I am dogmatic about His 2nd Coming being a literal/physical return to this earth.