The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Again. You can't pick the metaphor out of Jeremiah and force the metaphor in Romans to mean the same thing anymore than I can use the metaphor from Romans and force it on Jeremiah.
Pope says people are good
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Biblelesson
Active member
This explains it Really good.
The Bible uses symbolism to deepen the message God has for His people. One such symbol is that of potter and clay. The most detailed example is found in Jeremiah 18. God instructed the prophet Jeremiah to go to a potter’s house where God would illustrate His relationship with Israel. Verses 2–6 say, “So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw him working at the wheel. But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him. Then the word of the Lord came to me. He said, ‘Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?’ declares the Lord. ‘Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel.’”
Although God allows human beings freedom to make moral choices, He demonstrates often that He is still sovereign and in control of His universe. He does whatever He wills with His creation (Psalm 135:6; 115:3; Daniel 4:35; Isaiah 46:9–11). We need frequent reminders that God is over all and can do as He pleases whether we understand His actions or not (Romans 9:20–21). He owes us nothing yet chooses to extend to us the utmost patience, kindness, and compassion (Jeremiah 9:24; Psalm 36:10; 103:4, 17). The potter working with the clay reminds us that God is at work in us “for His good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13). Isaiah 45:9 says, “Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker, those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘The potter has no hands’?”
God has created each of us the way He wants us (Psalm 139:13–16; Exodus 4:11). It is our responsibility to take what He has given us and use it for His glory and pleasure. In doing so, we find our ultimate fulfillment. Rather than live with disappointment and dissatisfaction with what God has or has not given us, we can choose to thank Him in everything (Ephesians 5:20; Colossians 3:15). Just as the clay finds its highest purpose when it remains pliable in the hands of the potter, so our lives fulfill their highest purpose when we let our Potter have His way with us.
What should we learn from the symbolism of the potter and clay in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org
What should we learn from the symbolism of the potter and clay in the Bible? In what ways is God the potter and us the clay?
www.gotquestions.org
Biblelesson
Active member
Always remember and never forget when interpreting Scripture, we must keep in mind the distinction between a passage’s interpretation and the same passage’s application: a passage can have only one meaning, but it may have many applications.
One needs to be aware when sifting through applications.
One needs to be aware when sifting through applications.
Um Jer 18 is a reference alluded to in Rom 9:21
System Guide Customizations: Cross References (Bible Reference)
CROSS REFERENCES
Chapter 9 The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge
Romans 9:21 English Standard Version: Cross-References
Romans 9:21 The Holman Christian Standard Bible: Cross-References
Romans 9:21 New American Standard Bible: Cross-References
Je 18:6 | “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares Jehovah. Look, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.
2 Ti 2:20 | Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor.
Is 64:8 | But now, O Jehovah, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand.
Is 45:9 | “Woe to the one who contends with his Maker, an earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Shall the clay say to its former, ‘What do you make?’ or ‘Your work has no handles’?
Wis 15:7 |
Ge 11:3; Ex 3:22; 12:34; Ps 2:9; Pr 16:4; Is 29:16; 45:9; 64:8; Je 18:6–7; Wis 15:7; Sir 33:13; Mt 10:1; 27:7, 10; Jn 9:6; Ro 1:1, 5, 26; 11:16; 1 Co 5:6–7; 9:12; 11:21; Ga 5:9; 2 Ti 2:20–21; Heb 9:21; Re 2:27
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Created 5/29/2024 6:58:49 PM
Exported from Logos Bible Software, 6:58 PM May 29, 2024.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Paul didn't create that cross-reference.
He did quote from the Old Testament concerning the potter.
Why do you seek to divorce Paul's statement from the Old Testament?
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Ephesians 4:8 Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.”
Psalm 68:18 You have ascended on high, You have led captive Your captives; You have received gifts among men, Even among the rebellious also, that the Lord God may dwell there.
civic
Well-known member
And how does that make Jeremiah 18 irrelevant ?
quoting scripture doesn't prove anything and we affirm those passages you quoted. Amen.
But they have nothing to do with Romans 9 or Jeremiah 18.
This addresses the illustration of the potter and the clay seen in Romans 9 how?
Are you seriously suggesting we should ignore the Old Testament reference which deals with the potter and the Clay and shows God's use of men varies with their response to him and instead attempt to understand the potter and the clay metaphor by these unrelated verses?
That is correct as far as it goes above however the rest of Jeremiah 18 teaches us
Jeremiah 18:5–11 (KJV 1900) — 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. 11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
God does not arbitrarily treat men, but he treats them in regard how they respond to him
Thus Jeremiah 18 as well as Romans 9 both do not teach God unconditionally mercies some making them vessels of honor and reprobate others making them into vessels of wrath
Obadiah
Well-known member
This explains it Really good.
The Bible uses symbolism to deepen the message God has for His people. One such symbol is that of potter and clay. The most detailed example is found in Jeremiah 18. God instructed the prophet Jeremiah to go to a potter’s house where God would illustrate His relationship with Israel. Verses 2–6 say, “So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw him working at the wheel. But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him. Then the word of the Lord came to me. He said, ‘Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?’ declares the Lord. ‘Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel.’”
Although God allows human beings freedom to make moral choices, He demonstrates often that He is still sovereign and in control of His universe. He does whatever He wills with His creation (Psalm 135:6; 115:3; Daniel 4:35; Isaiah 46:9–11). We need frequent reminders that God is over all and can do as He pleases whether we understand His actions or not (Romans 9:20–21). He owes us nothing yet chooses to extend to us the utmost patience, kindness, and compassion (Jeremiah 9:24; Psalm 36:10; 103:4, 17). The potter working with the clay reminds us that God is at work in us “for His good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13). Isaiah 45:9 says, “Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker, those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘The potter has no hands’?”
God has created each of us the way He wants us (Psalm 139:13–16; Exodus 4:11). It is our responsibility to take what He has given us and use it for His glory and pleasure. In doing so, we find our ultimate fulfillment. Rather than live with disappointment and dissatisfaction with what God has or has not given us, we can choose to thank Him in everything (Ephesians 5:20; Colossians 3:15). Just as the clay finds its highest purpose when it remains pliable in the hands of the potter, so our lives fulfill their highest purpose when we let our Potter have His way with us.
What should we learn from the symbolism of the potter and clay in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org
What should we learn from the symbolism of the potter and clay in the Bible? In what ways is God the potter and us the clay?www.gotquestions.org
Oil in Our Lamps
READ THE SCRIPTURE: MATTHEW 25:1-13
Weddings were always held at night in the East. Often the festivities lasted for a week and at any time during that week the bridal party was expected to appear. The bridegroom would come to get his bride, and they would walk together to the wedding. Groups of people waited along the way, to join the wedding procession. Here are ten young girls waiting expectantly for the bridegroom.
At midnight came a cry to come out and meet the bridegroom, which plunges us into the rest of the story: Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish ones said to the wise, Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out. No, they replied, there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves. But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived.
The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. Later the others also came. Lord, Lord, they said, open the door for us! But he replied, Truly I tell you, I don't know you. Therefore, keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. (Matthew 25:7-13)
There is a difference among these ten: five were wise, and five were foolish. The difference lay in the fact that the wise had extra oil. They all had oil to begin with, but the wise took along an extra supply.
That is how they endured the unexpected delay of the bridegroom. Oil is commonly used as a type or picture of the ministry of the Holy Spirit, revealing truth. This also pictures those living in the time between the Lord's first coming and his second, waiting for his appearing. Certain wise among us have an extra supply of oil, a supply adequate to meet the test of whatever may come. But there are also some among us who are foolish, lacking adequate supply of oil, who have never really discovered the full ministry of the Spirit.
There is a ministry of the Spirit to the minds and hearts of those who are not yet born again, as pictured by the foolish virgins. He enlightens them to a degree, as they read the Bible, and hear such truth as the Lord's return, but they haven't come to the place where this truth has really gripped them. They may have understood it, but it has not yet held them with a personal knowledge of the One who the truth reveals, the Lord Jesus Christ.
The knowledge of the Word must go deeper than the surface, to an obedience of the heart, a trusting, a giving over completely of the central control of your life, your will, to Jesus Christ. This results in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the One who holds you steady in the hour of crisis.
civic
Well-known member
its the same metaphor in Romans 9 and Jeremiah. The same Potter, the same clay, the same elect Jews in both, the same nations in both.
civic
Well-known member
The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will let you hear my words.” 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was working at his wheel. 4 And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter’s hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.
1- who spoiled the clay ?
It was the clay,not the potter. The clay was spoiled in the hands of the potter and the potter reworked it into another vessel. This is the context which Paul uses in Romans 9.
Romans 9- Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hose′a,
“Those who were not my people
I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved
I will call ‘my beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
Romans 9 has the elect Jews who are the vessels of destruction and the gentiles as the ones of mercy who were not Gods elect. Through their own rebellion God has called a people who were not His people, the children of God. The potter/clay refutes Calvinism, not supports it. The harden self righteous Jews were rejected by God with a seared conscience. Their rebellion caused a good purpose - the grafting in of the Gentiles.
The condition of the clay and the potter. God declares if you repent then I will not bring upon you these disasters/wrath/judgements.
Jeremiah 18
Then the word of the Lord came to me. 6 He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.
In Romans 9 its the hardened Jew/reprobate is whom Paul prays for in their temporary hardening until all the gentiles are grafted into the branch. The potter/clay is God using the hardened Jews- His elect,chosen people ( destruction ) to bring in non elect vessels of glory ( gentiles) their salvation. The potter/clay is another analogy that contradicts calvinism, not support it. Once the glasses/lens are removed one can see the passages in their greater biblical context and harmonize them.
There are no chapters/verses in the original Greek- so here is the context below which reveals the flaws in Calvinism's soteriology.
Romans 9:30–32 - What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Romans 10:18–21- But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” 19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” 20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” 21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”
Romans 11:19–23-Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
hope this helps !!!
1- who spoiled the clay ?
It was the clay,not the potter. The clay was spoiled in the hands of the potter and the potter reworked it into another vessel. This is the context which Paul uses in Romans 9.
Romans 9- Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hose′a,
“Those who were not my people
I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved
I will call ‘my beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
Romans 9 has the elect Jews who are the vessels of destruction and the gentiles as the ones of mercy who were not Gods elect. Through their own rebellion God has called a people who were not His people, the children of God. The potter/clay refutes Calvinism, not supports it. The harden self righteous Jews were rejected by God with a seared conscience. Their rebellion caused a good purpose - the grafting in of the Gentiles.
The condition of the clay and the potter. God declares if you repent then I will not bring upon you these disasters/wrath/judgements.
Jeremiah 18
Then the word of the Lord came to me. 6 He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.
In Romans 9 its the hardened Jew/reprobate is whom Paul prays for in their temporary hardening until all the gentiles are grafted into the branch. The potter/clay is God using the hardened Jews- His elect,chosen people ( destruction ) to bring in non elect vessels of glory ( gentiles) their salvation. The potter/clay is another analogy that contradicts calvinism, not support it. Once the glasses/lens are removed one can see the passages in their greater biblical context and harmonize them.
There are no chapters/verses in the original Greek- so here is the context below which reveals the flaws in Calvinism's soteriology.
Romans 9:30–32 - What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Romans 10:18–21- But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” 19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” 20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” 21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”
Romans 11:19–23-Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
hope this helps !!!
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Just demonstrating that you can't take an OT reference by Paul and use the OT version to redefine Paul's quote.
civic
Well-known member
Paul affirms Jeremiah 18 in Romans 9 read my previous post. I draw out the parallels.
Obadiah
Well-known member
Don't you just love God's Word?
civic
Well-known member
Yes it brings clarity, unity to both testaments. Its speaks as One Voice.
Obadiah
Well-known member
The unity and diversity of the Old and New Testaments is an invitation to come and see more of God’s Word. The Bible is one book, composed of two testaments. Comprised of thirty-nine books, the Old Testament is God’s unfolding promise to his covenant people Israel.
With twenty-seven books, the New Testament fulfills all the promises of the Old Testament in Christ, for Jew and Gentile alike. The New Testament explains the person and work of Christ by showing how he fulfills the Old Testament. Together these two testaments are a literary unity, progressively revealed.
Us readers today must pay attention to the textual, covenantal, and canonical horizons to make sense of this one book. Praying before we read the bible and ask the Holy Spirit to guide us into all the truth that teaches helps tremendously.
With twenty-seven books, the New Testament fulfills all the promises of the Old Testament in Christ, for Jew and Gentile alike. The New Testament explains the person and work of Christ by showing how he fulfills the Old Testament. Together these two testaments are a literary unity, progressively revealed.
Us readers today must pay attention to the textual, covenantal, and canonical horizons to make sense of this one book. Praying before we read the bible and ask the Holy Spirit to guide us into all the truth that teaches helps tremendously.
Yes and Jeremiah shows God does not arbitrarily reprobate some but treats men according to how they respond to himits the same metaphor in Romans 9 and Jeremiah. The same Potter, the same clay, the same elect Jews in both, the same nations in both.
civic
Well-known member
Bingo
