No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !
- Thread starter brightfame52
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brightfame52
Active Member
Yeah I can read and scripture nowhere ever said Christ died for All mankind. Now His propitiationary sacrifice covers not only the sins of Jews but also of elect gentiles
Doug Brents
Active Member
You are still blind.
Where does 1 John 2:2 say anything about Jew or Gentile, or the elect, or make any limitation on who is covered by His sacrifice?
"and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
brightfame52
Active Member
You still have not showed me one scripture that says Christ died for All mankind I see you reading that into that scripture
atpollard
Active Member
According to John Gill, virtually EVERY OTHER TIME the phrase is used and by the context of 1 John itself:
but also for [the sins] of the whole world;
the Syriac version renders it, "not for us only, but also for the whole world"; that is, not for the Jews only, for John was a Jew, and so were those he wrote unto, but for the Gentiles also. Nothing is more common in Jewish writings than to call the Gentiles (amle) , "the world"; and (Mlweh lk) , "the whole world"; and (Mlweh twmwa) , "the nations of the world"; (See Gill on 12:19); and the word "world" is so used in Scripture; see ( John 3:16 ) ( 4:42 ) ( Romans 11:12 Romans 11:15 ) ; and stands opposed to a notion the Jews have of the Gentiles, that (hrpk Nhl Nya) , "there is no propitiation for them": and it is easy to observe, that when this phrase is not used of the Gentiles, it is to be understood in a limited and restrained sense; as when they say,
``it happened to a certain high priest, that when he went out of the sanctuary, (amle ylwk) , "the whole world" went after him;''
which could only design the people in the temple. And elsewhere it is said,
``(amle ylwk) , "the "whole world" has left the Misna, and gone after the "Gemara";''
which at most can only intend the Jews; and indeed only a majority of their doctors, who were conversant with these writings: and in another place,
``(amle ylwk) , "the whole world" fell on their faces, but Raf did not fall on his face;''
where it means no more than the congregation. Once more, it is said {q}, when
``R. Simeon ben Gamaliel entered (the synagogue), (amle ylwk) , "the whole world" stood up before him;''
that is, the people in the synagogue: to which may be added,
``when a great man makes a mourning, (amle ylwk) , "the whole world" come to honour him;''
i.e. a great number of persons attend the funeral pomp: and so these phrases, (ygylp al amle ylwk) , "the whole world" is not divided, or does not dissent; (yrbo amle ylwk) , "the whole world" are of opinion, are frequently met with in the Talmud, by which, an agreement among the Rabbins, in certain points, is designed; yea, sometimes the phrase, "all the men of the world", only intend the inhabitants of a city where a synagogue was, and, at most, only the Jews: and so this phrase, "all the world", or "the whole world", in Scripture, unless when it signifies the whole universe, or the habitable earth, is always used in a limited sense, either for the Roman empire, or the churches of Christ in the world, or believers, or the present inhabitants of the world, or a part of them only, ( Luke 2:1 ) ( Romans 1:8 ) ( 3:19 ) ( Colossians 1:6 ) ( Revelation 3:10 ) ( 12:9 ) ( 13:3 ) ; and so it is in this epistle, ( 1 John 5:19 ) ; where the whole world lying in wickedness is manifestly distinguished from the saints, who are of God, and belong not to the world; and therefore cannot be understood of all the individuals in the world; and the like distinction is in this text itself, for "the sins of the whole world" are opposed to "our sins", the sins of the apostle and others to whom he joins himself; who therefore belonged not to, nor were a part of the whole world, for whose sins Christ is a propitiation as for theirs: so that this passage cannot furnish out any argument for universal redemption; for besides these things, it may be further observed, that for whose sins Christ is a propitiation, their sins are atoned for and pardoned, and their persons justified from all sin, and so shall certainly be glorified, which is not true of the whole world, and every man and woman in it; moreover, Christ is a propitiation through faith in his blood, the benefit of his propitiatory sacrifice is only received and enjoyed through faith; so that in the event it appears that Christ is a propitiation only for believers, a character which does not agree with all mankind; add to this, that for whom Christ is a propitiation he is also an advocate, ( 1 John 2:1 ) ; but he is not an advocate for every individual person in the world; yea, there is a world he will not pray for ( John 17:9 ) , and consequently is not a propitiation for them. Once more, the design of the apostle in these words is to comfort his "little children" with the advocacy and propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, who might fall into sin through weakness and inadvertency; but what comfort would it yield to a distressed mind, to be told that Christ was a propitiation not only for the sins of the apostles and other saints, but for the sins of every individual in the world, even of these that are in hell? Would it not be natural for persons in such circumstances to argue rather against, than for themselves, and conclude that seeing persons might be damned notwithstanding the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, that this might, and would be their case. In what sense Christ is a propitiation, (See Gill on Romans 3:25). The Jews have no notion of the Messiah as a propitiation or atonement; sometimes they say repentance atones for all sin; sometimes the death of the righteous; sometimes incense; sometimes the priests' garments; sometimes it is the day of atonement; and indeed they are in the utmost puzzle about atonement; and they even confess in their prayers, that they have now neither altar nor priest to atone for them; (See Gill on 1 John 4:10).
brightfame52
Active Member
The drawing in Jn 6:44 ensures Faith in Christ, its not merely giving all men an opportunity to believe in Christ with their own freewill. Its not a juncture whereby they can either accept or reject Christ, its the calling into action the new life God has given them! 15
Kokomo
Active Member
The Greek word translated “draw” is helkuo, which means “to drag” (literally or figuratively).
Draws" implies enablement:
"Draws" refers to God making the choice to come to Him desirable and providing the necessary grace. This is the concept of free will, as God's drawing is seen as a necessary and powerful influence that overcomes the sinful resistance of the heart, rather than a forceful drag.
John 6:44 shows us the idea that salvation is a gift from God. To receive it or not is up to the individual.
brightfame52
Active Member
I know all about the Greek word I've studied it for the past 30 years
Then you are stuck on
John 12:32 (NASB95) — 32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
brightfame52
Active Member
I believe that verse
You are not believable.
John 12:32 (NASB95) — 32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
brightfame52
Active Member
I believe that verse
I espouse Pre-Conception Existence theology, (PCE) aka pre-earth existence theology. Before the creation of the physical world, YHWH, the Unified GOD, declared to every person created in HIS image, Col 1:23, HIS divinity and HIS gospel of salvation for any sinner who had accepted HIM as their saviour, allowing HIM to do what was necessary with them to bring them back to HIM if they should ever sin.
Those who accepted HIM by faith, their unproven hope, as their GOD and saviour from sin became HIS elect, chosen to be HIS Bride. This free will faith is the saving faith that sinners must have to be saved.
Those who rejected HIM as a liar and a false god were condemned on the spot, becoming reprobate, illegitimate children.
There are indeed illegitimate, counterfeit children, of GOD: Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have acted corruptly toward Him, They are not His children, because of their defect; But are a perverse and crooked generation. OR: their defect is that they are not HIS children...
Then some of the elect rebelled against HIS call to come out from among the reprobate so that they may be judged and some would not, believing that the judgement was too harsh for mere unbelief, and was not worthy of a loving GOD. Thus they fell into sin as HIS sheep going astray into sin, HIS prodigal children going astray into Sin City, needing to be returned to HIM as per:
1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray: but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
To return, one must have been there before, at least, according to the normal use of the word. Therefore, in this verse, it would be normal to infer that the sheep that had gone astray, were, at one time part of the Shepherd's flock but had strayed away from HIS care. Since I am sure that the Shepherd was not negligent, the straying away from HIS care must have involved some rebellion.
Then everyone created in HIS image saw the creation of the physical universe and sang HIS praises, Job 38:7, with earth being chosen as the prison planet with a rehab centre in it for HIS sinful elect, HIS sinful good seed, the sinful people of HIS kingdom. All sinners were flung into the earth, Rev 12:4-9, the elect in verse 4 and the demons in verse 9, to be sown, not created, into mankind, Matt 13:36-39, to fulfill HIS election promise to HIS fallen legitimate children.
Sinners who repent and return to faith return to their original choice to accept HIS declaration as the truth which was lost by their sinfulness along with their free will. Iow, elect sinners depend upon GOD to achieve this return in them as their enslavement to sin makes it impossible for them to be involved their own salvation once they have become enslaved to the addictive power of sin.
The doublethink mistake: sinners enslaved to sin can still respond to GOD's call by their free will.
Excuse me for not believing you.
Is Christ drawing all men without exception to himself?
NO, or all are saved making much scripture to be a lie...
Burdock
Active Member
John 20:31: These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. The purpose for these truths being inspired and written is so “that you may believe,” and the world along with you.
21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:21
So, do you think that God’s purpose in having these inspired truths written have returned to Him void? I do not.
The nature of the gospel and God’s revelation is sufficient to enable a lost man to respond willingly to its appeals or instructions. There is no extra work God must do to change the nature of lost humanity to give the gospel a measure of sufficiency.
In other words, God does not need to “reconcile” (fix) the nature of the fallen man in order to enable him to respond willingly to His own appeal to be reconciled from that fallen condition. This most certainly is putting the proverbial cart before the horse.
21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:21
So, do you think that God’s purpose in having these inspired truths written have returned to Him void? I do not.
The nature of the gospel and God’s revelation is sufficient to enable a lost man to respond willingly to its appeals or instructions. There is no extra work God must do to change the nature of lost humanity to give the gospel a measure of sufficiency.
In other words, God does not need to “reconcile” (fix) the nature of the fallen man in order to enable him to respond willingly to His own appeal to be reconciled from that fallen condition. This most certainly is putting the proverbial cart before the horse.
Only if the drawing is irresistible would all be saved
John 12:32 (NASB 95) — 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
But do you then believe Christ mistaken or deceptive?
John 6:45 (NASB 95) — 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
brightfame52
Active Member
That's fine and it's nothing new
