Hosanna
Active Member
Now we are playing hide and seek?
No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !
- Thread starter brightfame52
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TibiasDad
Active Member
It doesn’t say that. All men are not converted nor shall be.
And how are these people the Father gives him identified, by what characteristic?
Doug
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TibiasDad
Active Member
That statement is heresy! I do not hold that Reformed theology is outright heretical, but TULIP is not the gospel. Christ’s death and resurrection for the sins of the whole world is the good news. It alone, not any particular interpretation thereof, is the remedy for death, both physical and spiritual.
Doug
Maybe you are just lost in your understanding of true Christianity.
Ok, thank you.
Nope as all people drawn are not converted.
Jeremiah 31:2–4 (LEB) — 2 Thus says Yahweh: “The people of the survivors of the sword found grace in the desert; Israel going to find their rest.” 3 From afar Yahweh appeared to me, saying, “I have loved you with an everlasting love. Therefore I have drawn you with loyal love. 4 I will again build you, and you will be built, O virgin Israel. You will again adorn yourself with your tambourines, and you will go forth in the dancing in a ring of the merrymakers.
Hosea 11:1–5 (LEB) — 1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. 2 When I called them, they went from my face. They sacrificed to the Baals, and they sacrificed to idols. 3 And I myself taught Ephraim to walk; I took them in my arms, but they did not know that I healed them. 4 I drew them with human ties, with the bands of love. I was to them like one who lifted up a yoke on their jaws, though I bent down to them and let them eat. 5 He will return to the land of Egypt, and Assyria will be his king, because they refused to return.
Nor were all that Christ drew
John 12:32 (LEB) — 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
That all are intended is confirmed by the words of Jesus stating
John 12:47 (LEB) — 47 And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I will not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
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civic
Active Member
as an FYI I believe tulip is heretical
TibiasDad
Active Member
I might if I had been like you. But Soteriology is not like the Deity of Christ. This said, there is much about it that is very dangerous.as an FYI I believe tulip is heretical
Doug
Selah
Active Member
Good SONday morning . . .
Let’s selah (meditate) about whether or not a person can come to Christ by their own free will.
Okay, let’s say a person hears the Gospel for the very first time and he believes it with all his heart.
Yep, he can, out of his own free will, run into the arms of Jesus. Just like that, he can come.
1 Just as I am, without one plea,
but that thy blood was shed for me,
and that thou bidd'st me come to thee,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
2 Just as I am, and waiting not
to rid my soul of one dark blot,
to thee, whose blood can cleanse each spot,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
3 Just as I am, though tossed about
with many a conflict, many a doubt,
fightings and fears within, without,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
4 Just as I am, thou wilt receive,
wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve;
because thy promise I believe,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
s e l a h
Let’s selah (meditate) about whether or not a person can come to Christ by their own free will.
Okay, let’s say a person hears the Gospel for the very first time and he believes it with all his heart.
Yep, he can, out of his own free will, run into the arms of Jesus. Just like that, he can come.
1 Just as I am, without one plea,
but that thy blood was shed for me,
and that thou bidd'st me come to thee,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
2 Just as I am, and waiting not
to rid my soul of one dark blot,
to thee, whose blood can cleanse each spot,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
3 Just as I am, though tossed about
with many a conflict, many a doubt,
fightings and fears within, without,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
4 Just as I am, thou wilt receive,
wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve;
because thy promise I believe,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
s e l a h
FreeInChrist
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes He does, He said they will be drawed to Him, that's conversion
FreeInChrist
Active Member
IF YOU DO READ TO THE END, WHICH i DOUBT YOU WILL YOU WILL READ THIS.
The words were certainly used by Jesus but Calvin introduced the doctrine of Unconditional election, Limited atonement, and Irresistible grace which I struggle to find in the Bible.
I'll start another post on this by inself since you are very into calling these Gospel.
As for above ......Except.............
The Greek word "helkó" in John 6:44 has not always been translated as "drew." It can also mean "to drag" or "to lead," and its interpretation varies among different translations and theological perspectives.
The Greek word "helkó," found in John 6:44, has not always been translated as "drew." Its interpretation varies based on context and theological perspective.
Common Translations
| Drew | Often implies a gentle attraction or invitation. |
| Compel | Suggests a forceful action, indicating that one is irresistibly brought to Christ. |
| Enable | Indicates that God provides the ability to come to Him, without coercion. |
[th]
Translation
[/th][th]Meaning
[/th]
Historical Context
- Early Translations: In some early translations, "helkó" was rendered in ways that suggested a more forceful action, aligning with interpretations of irresistible grace.
- Modern Interpretations: Contemporary translations often lean towards "draw" or "enable," reflecting a broader understanding of God's invitation rather than compulsion.
Theological Implications
- Calvinist View: Many Calvinists interpret "helkó" as "compel," supporting the doctrine of irresistible grace.
- Non-Calvinist View: Others argue for "draw" or "enable," suggesting that God invites individuals to come to Him without forcing them.
(WE ALL KNOW WHICH VIEW YOU HOLD)
The translation of "helkó" continues to be a topic of debate among theologians, reflecting differing beliefs about the nature of God's call to salvation.
There are great opinions in the following.... read it.
What does "draws" mean in John 6:44?
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him". E.S.V. The verb ἑλκύσῃ (helkysē) [from the root ἑλκω (helkó)] is translated "draws". Does drawing in this verse
What does "draws" mean in John 6:44?
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The verb ἑλκύσῃ (helkysē) [from the root ἑλκω (helkó)] is translated "draws". Does drawing in this verse guarantee a positive result, i.e. that the drawn thing actually moves?
In John 21:6 they intended to helkysai the net but it would not move. Or, suppose a rope is put round the neck of a stubborn mule, and the Jews have just been described [John 6:43] as people who grumble, [complain rather than comply],then here too pulling/drawing may produce no positive effect. The thing drawn does not necessarily move.
At this point we could broaden out to consider under what conditions of grace drawing might produce a positive result. But again, does helkyse imply anything more than a pull or intention which may or may not produce something? Acts 16:19 shows us that heilkysan can be an act of force, but that by itself does not prove that it always is. In common parlance we can feel drawn to do various things [eat something not good for us] which we do not end up doing. How should we see "draws"?
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edited Mar 15, 2021 at 16:28
asked Jun 13, 2019 at 21:51
C. Stroud
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Without 'drawing' there is no 'coming'. So it is, in essence, effectual. I cannot see a real question, here, myself.
– Nigel J
CommentedJun 13, 2019 at 23:02
@Nigel Many are called[drawn] but few are chosen[given the grace to respond to being drawn], if this is true then there cannot be coming without drawing, but there can be drawing without coming.
– C. Stroud
CommentedJun 14, 2019 at 12:13- 1
'Called' in Matthew 22:14 is κλητοί Strong 2822. 'Drawn' in John 6:44 is ἑλκύσῃ Strong 1670. They are different Greek words with different meanings.
– Nigel J
CommentedJun 14, 2019 at 15:32
@ Nigel In John 21v6 I mistook the intention for the act. The net might have been pulled but was not drawn.
– C. Stroud
CommentedJun 15, 2019 at 11:09
You drew me in to this question, because you sent the son of man. Good bye.
– Decrypted
CommentedJun 17, 2019 at 20:17
5 Answers
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Meaning of the verb ἑλκω (helkó)
BDAG gives three meanings for this verb as follows:
- to move an object from one area to another in a pulling motion, draw, with the implication that the object being moved is incapable of propelling itself or in the case of a person is unwilling to do so voluntarily. Eg, John 18:10, Acts 21:30, 16:19, etc.
- to draw a person in the direction of values for inner life, draw, attract. Eg, John 6:44.
- to appear to be pulled in a certain direction, flow. [This meaning not used in the NT but is part of the spectrum of meaning for the word.]
Can this drawing be resisted?
There are numerous examples in the NT of people electing to resist the drawing of God, one of which is quoted by the OP in John 21:6. Here are more examples:
- John 12:32 says that when Jesus is lifted up He will draw all people to Himself. Clearly, not everyone is actually attracted to Jesus and so many have resisted the drawing of Jesus.
- Acts 7:51 describes the frustration of Stephen when he states that the Jews were always resisting the Holy Spirit.
- 1 Thess 5:19 says not to quench (ie, resist) the Holy Spirit
- Eph 4:30 says not to grieve (ie, resist) the Holy Spirit
- 1 Tim 6:10 describes some who allow the lure of money to be greater than the drawing of Jesus and His faith.
- 2 Peter 2:21 also describes some who once knew the way of righteousness but have abandoned the faith and thus resist the drawing of Jesus via His Spirit.
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answered Jun 14, 2019 at 2:32
user25930
John 12:32 states παντας ελκυσω προς εμαυτον - will draw all unto me. 'All' does not necessarily mean 'all men'. The 'all' is the totality of a certain group of individuals.
– Nigel J
CommentedJun 14, 2019 at 15:36
That is true - and who composes this "certain group of individuals"? and how can this be deduced from the text itself in John 12:32?
– user25930
CommentedJun 14, 2019 at 19:25
Well that is within the mystery of Divinity, ordained before the foundation of the world, I would say.
– Nigel J
CommentedJun 14, 2019 at 23:01
That is not in the text at hand - that is only true if Calvin's doctrine of divine election is true which I would question. I think the text means simply what it says - all men on earth.
– user25930
CommentedJun 15, 2019 at 6:34- 1
– user25930
CommentedJun 15, 2019 at 11:47
1
"helkysē" by itself does not guarantee any good or bad. When combined with other words and given a context then there is more to work with to try and work out the meaning.
It's like having a human tooth which is a part of a human being, but it is not the human being. You might have clues as to what someone might have eaten, but you can't tell their personality without actually knowing the whole person.
In John 21:6 Those in the boat could not "draw" the net, but in verses 10 and 11 Jesus asks for fish, and it says that Peter "helkysē" the net and it didn't break.
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answered Jun 13, 2019 at 23:05
Michael
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Perhaps out of all the range of words used that are linked to helkysē the best word is persuade. The Father persuades us through the hearing of the word.
What does "draws" mean in John 6:44
Draw can mean persuade
ἑλκύσω (helkysō) Verb - Future Indicative Active - 1st Person Singular Strong's 1670: To drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe. Or helko hel'-ko; probably akin to haireomai; to drag.
The Father persuades us through the hearing of the word.
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
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edited Jan 24, 2024 at 17:20
answered Jan 12, 2024 at 16:24
Rjoy
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What does “draws” mean in John 6:44?
Humans have been created with free will, so everyone has the choice when it comes to serving him.
Deuteronomy 30:19-20 (NASB)
God gently draws people to himself that have the right heart and mental attitude. He saw a heart that would be receptive to his liberating law, a heart that would submit to his kind influence. He does this by means of his message in the Bible and through his holy spirit.
Acts 13:48 (NASB)
John 6:65 (NASB)
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answered Mar 15, 2021 at 19:13
Ozzie Ozzie
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Ozzie "no one can come to me unless.." that sounds conditional, not free. If what humans will to do is conditional upon what the Father grants then that makes me question your statement: "Humans have been created with free will".
– C. Stroud
CommentedOct 8, 2021 at 13:52
C. Stroud: I disagree with you. Your parents induced or gave rise to your birth,of which you had no control. God gave us free will (Deuteronomy 30:19-20) He does not force our hearts to open, He opens the door to our hearts, he searches billions of people and will open the door of our heart to those that are inclined to him. (1 Chronicle 28:9 and Acts 13:48) When God sees a heart that is responsive to the Bible truths, he used his holy spirit to help that individual to understand and apply them to his life.(1 Cor. 2:11-12)
– Ozzie Ozzie
CommentedOct 8, 2021 at 18:10
Ozzie I would be happy to go to chat room if you would like to chat Bible and free will.But otherwise I conclude with-I think: we choose; we choose on the basis of who we are; we do not choose who we are. We do do not choose our nurture, nature or spiritual disposition. These are all God's plan. He has a holy motive for them all.
– C. Stroud
CommentedOct 9, 2021 at 11:45
C. Stroud : I would certainly love to talk to you on free will and other Bible topics, . I do not know how to start on chat. , please start and call me, Tks.
– Ozzie Ozzie
CommentedOct 9, 2021 at 16:42
-1
John 12:31 says "Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out." The context of John 12:32 when Jesus says he will draw all men to Himself, is referring to judgment. All men are judged based on their belief in Jesus as Savior.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Calvin introduced the doctrine of Unconditional election, Limited atonement, and Irresistible grace which I struggle to find in the Bible.
This came from
What does "draws" mean in John 6:44?
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him". E.S.V. The verb ἑλκύσῃ (helkysē) [from the root ἑλκω (helkó)] is translated "draws". Does drawing in this verse
What does "draws" mean in John 6:44?
brightfame52
Active Member
civic
Active Member
Tulip is heresy the gospel is not tulip as you are guilty of equivocating
brightfame52
Active Member
He said He would draw them UNTO Himself, that's conversion, He gathered them to Himself
brightfame52
Active Member
Thats a false gospel, it was specifically for His Church.
Nope as all people drawn are not converted.
Jeremiah 31:2–4 (LEB) — 2 Thus says Yahweh: “The people of the survivors of the sword found grace in the desert; Israel going to find their rest.” 3 From afar Yahweh appeared to me, saying, “I have loved you with an everlasting love. Therefore I have drawn you with loyal love. 4 I will again build you, and you will be built, O virgin Israel. You will again adorn yourself with your tambourines, and you will go forth in the dancing in a ring of the merrymakers.
Hosea 11:1–5 (LEB) — 1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. 2 When I called them, they went from my face. They sacrificed to the Baals, and they sacrificed to idols. 3 And I myself taught Ephraim to walk; I took them in my arms, but they did not know that I healed them. 4 I drew them with human ties, with the bands of love. I was to them like one who lifted up a yoke on their jaws, though I bent down to them and let them eat. 5 He will return to the land of Egypt, and Assyria will be his king, because they refused to return.
Nor were all that Christ drew
John 12:32 (LEB) — 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
That all are intended is confirmed by the words of Jesus stating
John 12:47 (LEB) — 47 And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I will not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
civic
Active Member
Projecting
