FreeInChrist
Active Member
Wrong
No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Romans 11:28–32 (LEB) — 28 With respect to the gospel, they are enemies for your sake, but with respect to election, they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you formerly were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of the disobedience of these, 31 so also these have now been disobedient for your mercy, in order that they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God confined them all in disobedience, in order that he could have mercy on them all.
The mercy we were given was found in the gospel whereby we may be saved through faith in Christ.
But that is not the passage in view.
No mention of unconditional election
Christ died for all.
Hebrews 2:9 (LEB) — 9 but we see Jesus, for a short time made lower than the angels, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that apart from God he might taste death on behalf of everyone.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
A ransom for all, as God desires the salvation of all people
1 Timothy 2:3–6 (LEB) — 3 This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,
He was therefore making propitiation for all the world's sin
1 John 2:2 (LEB) — 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Christ is therefore a savior for all the world
1 John 4:14 (LEB) — 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
Titus 2:11 (LEB) — 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,
1 Timothy 4:10 (LEB) — 10 For to this end we labor and suffer reproach, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of believers.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
No. you are the one who has a one track mind and nothing of God is one track.
You are incapable of making a statement that when that statement counters another we read of you
then say that is a different subject.
It is not a different subject and I am not all over the place I am inclusive with in the 66 books of the Holy Bible.
You simply cannot make a statement such as suggesting the reprobates will not be included in all but indicate
you believe they have a ticket straight to hell... (my interpretation of your copy and paste).. with no stops there
because all of them will have to give an account for themselves.
While it is a common belief that born-again Christians will not see the Great White Throne Judgment; we will instead stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, which is for rewards based on their earthly works. The Great White Throne Judgment is specifically for those who have not accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior.
No one escapes judgement.
Yet Rev 20:11-15 indicates we all will see that judgement.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
One of the common misconceptions about Christianity is that it's only for people who are good or who have it all together. This couldn't be further from the truth. Jesus says himself that he came to save sinners, and from the types of people that he taught, invited to follow him and spent time with, we can see that his call was open to all. He called lowly workers, socialised with people on the margins of society and invited them all to follow him.
We should view Jesus' invitation as he intended it to be – inclusive not exclusive.
And from the types of people that he taught, invited to follow him and spent time with,
and invited them all to follow him.
Can you possibly understand what Jesus did while here? He did not come for those YOU claim are the elect.
IF you are correct, and I wont comment my feelings on that at this point, there would have been no need for him to come and die as he did.
But he mingled among the worst of them.... inviting them all to follow him.
THIS IS WHAT IS AT THE CORE OF FREE WILL.
JESUS PRESENTED HIS CASE, AND THEY HAD THE OPPORTUNUTY TO ACCEPT HIM OR REJECT HIM.
But even under rejection they still will have their Great White Throne Judgement... They do not immediately all end in hell when they die.
You keep saying reply #5 "No man can come to Christ by his own freewill ability because by nature he is dead in trespasses and sins and without spiritual life and ability to do or act. So consequently he cant come and believe on Christ of himself, or of his own freewill.
Yet from Jesus' own mouth He said himself that he came to save sinners, and from the types of people that he taught, invited to follow him and spent time with, we can see that his call was open to all. He called lowly workers, socialized with people on the margins of society and invited them all to follow him.
So when you say "So consequently he cant come and believe on Christ of himself, or of his own freewill." You are wrong.
And when you say... regarding "John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
He is speaking only for the elect. Because you say that Free Will is not included for reasons only you understand... by Jesus very own ministry on earth and who he was mingling with.... that proves you are wrong.
Interesting AI states this
Indicating each and every one will get "the universal invitation to come to Christ through His sacrificial death"
Not the elect only because they already are believers, but the Free Will who has an option.
Got Questions expands this more clearly. https://www.gotquestions.org/if-I-be-lifted-up.html
Wont post it all due to the length this is getting
What does John 12:32 really mean? - God's Blessing
32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
godsbless.ing
I shall stop with the links because I am certain that you @brightfame52 likely have not read this far.
But if you have... Can you answer the question "Have you ever considered the profound significance of Jesus’ crucifixion as a unifying force for all people?'
My guess would be no because it does not fit your beliefs because in your tunnel vision of predestination you simply cannot uinderstand.
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brightfame52
Active Member
No one can come to Jesus unless capacitated by the Father; that is, no one has the ability to receive Jesus unless the Father gives it to him.
John 6:44,65
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
This defeats the false notion of man having a freewill to receive Jesus Christ as in Jn 1:12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 10
John 6:44,65
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
This defeats the false notion of man having a freewill to receive Jesus Christ as in Jn 1:12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 10
brightfame52
Active Member
Man by nature are children of disobedience, unbelief, imprisoned, there is no hope of ever believing in Christ in our nature inherited from adam
brightfame52
Active Member
They were mentioned specifically in Jn 10 who He was going to die for. Lifted up in Jn 12 and laying down His Life in Jn 10 are one and the same, for one and the same people.
brightfame52
Active Member
It is in Rom 11:5-6 the election of grace is unconditional and its limited to a remnant.
"Remnant all people"?
John 12:32 (LEB) — 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
Christ died for all.
Hebrews 2:9 (LEB) — 9 but we see Jesus, for a short time made lower than the angels, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that apart from God he might taste death on behalf of everyone.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
A ransom for all, as God desires the salvation of all people
1 Timothy 2:3–6 (LEB) — 3 This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,
He was therefore making propitiation for all the world's sin
1 John 2:2 (LEB) — 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Christ is therefore a savior for all the world
1 John 4:14 (LEB) — 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
Titus 2:11 (LEB) — 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,
1 Timothy 4:10 (LEB) — 10 For to this end we labor and suffer reproach, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of believers.
Obadiah
Active Member
Children of disobedience can come to Jesus, as the term "children of disobedience" refers to those who are naturally rebellious against God and are destined for His wrath. However, through faith in Jesus, who saves people from their sins and the wrath of God, these individuals can be transformed from "children of disobedience" to "children of light" and receive salvation.
brightfame52
Active Member
No its you, you all over the place
brightfame52
Active Member
False, the actual children of disobedience, the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction will never believe, eternal destruction is their portion
Um it seems
Romans 11:20 (LEB) — 20 Well said! They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand firm because of faith. Do not think arrogant thoughts, but be afraid.
It is based upon faith.
Obadiah
Active Member
True, it's called God's grace. The transformation from "children of disobedience" to "children of light" is a core concept in the Christian Bible, particularly in Ephesians. It describes the transition from a life of sin and rebellion against God to a new life in Christ characterized by obedience, righteousness, and truth. This change comes through God's grace, which brings believers out of a spiritual darkness into the "light of Christ," allowing them to walk in a way that pleases God.
You ignored a number of verses
1 John 2:2and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Cor 5:15And he died for all, in order that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for the one who died for them and was raised.
1 Tim 2:5–6For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,
Heb 2:9but we see Jesus, for a short time made lower than the angels, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that apart from God he might taste death on behalf of everyone.
Titus 2:11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,
2 Pet 3:9The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
1 Tim 4:10For to this end we labor and suffer reproach, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of believers.
1 John 4:14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
66 books and you have 2 maybe 3 verses for your soteriology
No wonder...................................................
civic
Active Member
CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT
He said that to the PHARISEE'S- the Jewish leaders who REJECTED Him.
next fallacy
brightfame52
Active Member
No its not, election of grace is based upon grace.
brightfame52
Active Member
No grace for the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, their portion is hardening.
