More, or Less?

[amazing grace]

The physical manifestation was born; the logos that took on flesh was not! He is eternal! Begotten not created!

Doug

I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” [Genesis 3:15] ---- This is the human Jesus, the Lord's Christ not a manifestation of God.

I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him. [Deut. 18:18,19] ---- This is the human Jesus, the Lord's Christ not a manifestation of God.

(David) When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. [2 Samuel 7:12-14a] ---- This is the human Jesus, the Lord's Christ not a manifestation of God.

For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with
and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. etc. [the suffering servant Isaiah 53] --- this is the human Jesus, the Lord's Christ not a manifestation of God.

 

[TibiasDad]

I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” [Genesis 3:15] ---- This is the human Jesus, the Lord's Christ not a manifestation of God.

1) Who is speaking in Gen 3:15

2) Who is acting in Gen 3:15

It is the same answer for both questions: how can it not be a manifestation of God? God makes Christ manifest to mankind, and Christ is God manifested!

Matt 1:20But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23“The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”). (Emphasis mine)

Consider what Isaiah records:

Isa 44: 6“This is what the Lord says—
Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.

And then what John records Jesus as saying;

Rev 1:17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

and again,

Rev 2:8“To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

and again,

Rev 22:12“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

So tell me, how can Jesus claim to be what Jehovah said he was unless he is also God?


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Who being the brightness of his glory - apaugasma - reflected brightness; of Christ in that he perfectly reflects the Majesty of God.

According to BDAG lexicon, ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης is an active voice statement, but “reflection” is the meaning of apaugasma only in the passive voice.

Otherwise it means active radiance or effulgence (shining brightness). So again, Christ is not passively reflecting God’s glory, God’s glory is radiating from within him by the active action and will of the Son.

Doug

 

[amazing grace]

1) Who is speaking in Gen 3:15

2) Who is acting in Gen 3:15

It is the same answer for both questions: how can it not be a manifestation of God? God makes Christ manifest to mankind, and Christ is God manifested!

God is the 'offspring' of the woman? God was born? It's a prophecy about the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

Matt 1:20But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23“The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”). (Emphasis mine)

Yes, Immanuel means 'God with us'. Doesn't mean he is God. God is with us in and through His Son, Jesus Christ.
“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— [Acts 2:

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. [2 Corthians 5:19]

Consider what Isaiah records:

Isa 44: 6“This is what the Lord says—
Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.

Yep, the phrase 'first and last' is used 2x in scripture referring to God (here and Isaiah 48:12) and 3x referring to Christ in Revelation which you have listed below.

Jesus is NEVER called Yahweh Almighty. Jesus can't be the Son and also be God the Father because God says there is no God other than him and Jesus said his Father was the only true God.

And then what John records Jesus as saying;

Rev 1:17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
and again,

Rev 2:8“To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

These two verses are in association with Jesus' death and resurrection. Jesus is the one who died and came to life again.
God did not die. God was not resurrected and given eternal life. God has always existed, has always been - He is inherently immortal.

Since Jesus connected these references to his death and resurrection, he clearly is not claiming to be God. He can ONLY be referring to himself, the Son of God who died and whom God raised from the dead to eternal life.

and again,

Rev 22:12“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

So tell me, how can Jesus claim to be what Jehovah said he was unless he is also God?


Doug

All these titles are synonymous - relative to God being the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end ------ what he has begun from the beginning he will carry on to its completion.
Relative to Jesus being the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end-----Christ is the beginning and the first to be raised from the dead conquering death. He is the founder of the Church which will be completed by his second coming. They each carry these "titles" in their own respective ways.

So you tell me why a Father cannot share titles with His Son? Does a Son have to also be the Father in order to share his Father's titles?

Example: Tommy's dad is an 'Attorney at Law' -- Tommy is also an 'Attorney at Law' ---- Are they the same person?
Michael's dad is a 'Pediatrician' -- Michael is also a 'Pediatrician' --- Are they the same person?

 

[amazing grace]

According to BDAG lexicon, ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης is an active voice statement, but “reflection” is the meaning of apaugasma only in the passive voice.

Otherwise it means active radiance or effulgence (shining brightness). So again, Christ is not passively reflecting God’s glory, God’s glory is radiating from within him by the active action and will of the Son.

Doug

The text is translated as - Who being the brightness of his glory, ---- yes, the WHOLE SENTENCE IS ACTIVE VOICE because of the verb 'being'. Jesus is the active radiance, the shining expression of the glory of God, the Majesty of God. It is God's glory that radiates from Jesus.

bottom line: Jesus is the express image of God by actively reflecting the character of God...

 

[TibiasDad]

Example: Tommy's dad is an 'Attorney at Law' -- Tommy is also an 'Attorney at Law' ---- Are they the same person?
Michael's dad is a 'Pediatrician' -- Michael is also a 'Pediatrician' --- Are they the same person?

1) I have never said they were the same person!

2) Attorney and Physician are functional responsibilities; it is what they do.

3) God is not a functional responsibility, it is a type of being, like human is a type of being, like canine and feline and bovine are types of being!

Only one type of being is sovereign over all other types of being and powers- that is God. God is not a mere title; it is an essence of his reality.

God the Father and God the Son (and God the Holy Spirit) are distinct individuals with the identical characteristics, qualities and abilities which can only be if they are the same type of beings. No other type of being can be the Alpha and Omega, Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. These are all encompassing terms; they are eternal (all time-from beginning to the end). They are the only point of reference worthy of our attention, the Alpha and Omega. They are the only ones who were at the First moment of creation and also at the Last moment of this creation’s existence.

Only one who is God can be these things. For Jesus to claim these (which the reference of the resurrection indicates whom is the person in question) he has to be claiming that he is God. Only God can claim to be the Way the Truth and the Life!


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

The text is translated as - Who being the brightness of his glory, ---- yes, the WHOLE SENTENCE IS ACTIVE VOICE because of the verb 'being'. Jesus is the active radiance, the shining expression of the glory of God, the Majesty of God. It is God's glory that radiates from Jesus.

bottom line: Jesus is the express image of God by actively reflecting the character of God...

A reflection is not from a mirror, it is off the surface of the mirror. The light doesn’t come from the mirror; Jesus is the source of light. The shining of God's glory emanates from him, not off him. The glory of God can only come from God!


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

So you tell me why a Father cannot share titles with His Son? Does a Son have to also be the Father in order to share his Father's titles?

You keep moving the goalposts by claiming that I assert them to be the same person: I do not! They are not!

And one more time, only one who is God can bear the titles that God claims. That is why Jesus claims to be worthy of the same honor that we give to the Father.

Doug

 

[amazing grace]

1) I have never said they were the same person!

You didn't list those verses to imply that because God is said to be the alpha and omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end and Jesus is said to have the same titles therefore Jesus is God? God and Jesus - same person.

2) Attorney and Physician are functional responsibilities; it is what they do.

But because it is what they do it is their titlel

3) God is not a functional responsibility, it is a type of being, like human is a type of being, like canine and feline and bovine are types of being!

Yes, I know - a canine is a dog and a dog reproduces another dog - same type, same kind. The same with cats and bovines.
Biologically they produce after their 'kind' through the act of reproduction, involving the uniting of sperm and egg

God is Spirit and Mary, a human being - that's TWO different 'types', 'kinds'...if you mix 'kinds' or 'species' you get hybrids.
Is Jesus a hybrid human being, part God and part man; a God-man? But Jesus was miraculously conceived not through the usual biological process therefore he is the offspring of the woman........a human being.

Only one type of being is sovereign over all other types of being and powers- that is God. God is not a mere title; it is an essence of his reality.

Only one type of being is sovereign over all others and that is Almighty God, the Most High, his personal name is Yahweh.
God is a title - Satan is called the 'god of this age'..... Moses was called 'god'......judges are called 'god'.

God the Father and God the Son (and God the Holy Spirit) are distinct individuals with the identical characteristics, qualities and abilities which can only be if they are the same type of beings. No other type of being can be the Alpha and Omega, Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. These are all encompassing terms; they are eternal (all time-from beginning to the end). They are the only point of reference worthy of our attention, the Alpha and Omega. They are the only ones who were at the First moment of creation and also at the Last moment of this creation’s existence.

Only one who is God can be these things. For Jesus to claim these (which the reference of the resurrection indicates whom is the person in question) he has to be claiming that he is God. Only God can claim to be the Way the Truth and the Life!


Doug

God is omnipotent - Jesus is not. God is omniscient - Jesus is not. Yes, Jesus can be the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end and the first and the last in specific categories related to him, the Son alone which is in those cases associated with his death and resurrection. Jesus is the one who died and came to life again. God did not die. God was not resurrected and given eternal life. God has always existed, has always been - He is inherently immortal.

Why do you insist on denying the Christ, the Son of God? Why do you insist on making him God?

The fact that Jesus is being referenced as once being dead but now alive.But God did not claim to be the way the truth and the life ---- that claim was made by God's Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[amazing grace]

A reflection is not from a mirror, it is off the surface of the mirror. The light doesn’t come from the mirror; Jesus is the source of light. The shining of God's glory emanates from him, not off him. The glory of God can only come from God!


Doug

I would agree that God's glory emanates from him ---- so he can't be God. It's God's glory shining through his Son.
It could be said in this manner: the glory of God is the light and the Son of God, the Lamb is the lamp from which the light emanates.

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. [2 Cor. 4:6]

 

[amazing grace]

You keep moving the goalposts by claiming that I assert them to be the same person: I do not! They are not!

And one more time, only one who is God can bear the titles that God claims. That is why Jesus claims to be worthy of the same honor that we give to the Father.

Doug

How did I move the goal posts? You brought up those titles that the Father and the Son share...... IMPLYING they were one and the same, i.e. Jesus is God. Isn't that exactly why you made that post to make the point that Jesus is God?
If Jesus is God then God is Jesus ......

 

[mikesw]

How did I move the goal posts? You brought up those titles that the Father and the Son share...... IMPLYING they were one and the same, i.e. Jesus is God. Isn't that exactly why you made that post to make the point that Jesus is God?

Either you do not know some conventions of English writing or you are just playing mind games. the equivalent is saying Nancy is human so human is Nancy. You should know better than that.

If Jesus is God then God is Jesus ......

Your post was confusing into you showed where your English was messed up in this point.

 

[mikesw]

I would agree that God's glory emanates from him ---- so he can't be God. It's God's glory shining through his Son.
It could be said in this manner: the glory of God is the light and the Son of God, the Lamb is the lamp from which the light emanates.

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. [2 Cor. 4:6]

Maybe you do not realize that the scripture's teaching of the Word becoming flesh indicates how that divine essence still can be evident even though veiled through the flesh of Jesus. This is how people sometimes could recognize that glory but often could not.

 

[TibiasDad]

He can ONLY be referring to himself, the Son of God who died and whom God raised from the dead to eternal life.

John 2:16To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!” 17His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.”

18The Jews then responded to him, “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”

19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

20They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

Jesus claimed that he would raise himself from the dead. So He must be God since “God raised him from the dead”.


Doug

God is Spirit and Mary, a human being - that's TWO different 'types', 'kinds'...if you mix 'kinds' or 'species' you get hybrids.
Is Jesus a hybrid human being, part God and part man; a God-man? But Jesus was miraculously conceived not through the usual biological process therefore he is the offspring of the woman........a human being.

Man is both Spirit/Soul and Body/physical, Jesus’s spiritual being, has always existed and is referred to as the Logos/Word. The Word became or took on human flesh and appeared in the form of man, just as we are.

Our spiritual nature and life are derived from Jesus, our creator. The sinless Spiritual Logos was implanted in the Holy Spirit created human embryo within Mary’s body, instead of the sinful seed of Adam, to create a second Adam.

It is not a different thing at all. There is no new species. The one in whom we find our existence took on the form of his creation.


Doug