More, or Less?

I don't think a Trinitarian has any other foundation than John 1:1 and grammatically it does not say what they want it to say.
That verse does not say that 'the word was THE GOD'. There is NO definite article before God therefore it is not equalitative.
Used here in John 1:1c 'God' is being used more in a qualitative sense. God's word, God's expression, His communication became flesh and dwelt among us as the only Son from the Father full of grace and truth......I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him.....This doesn't seem to imply that God became flesh nor does John 1:14.

AND let's not forget the author's purpose statement @ John 20:30,31 and it is NOT 'so that we might believe that Jesus is God, God the Son, and that by believing you may have life in his name' You're taking John 1:1 and totally contradicting the stated purpose of the Gospel of John.

Are you denying the birth records in Matthew and Luke? Neither birth record shows or speaks of God entering and emerging from Mary's womb.

What you are describing as dying is an empty sack of flesh not a human being. Jesus was an actual human being, a mortal corruptible creature who God raised from the dead ...
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption....... For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
giving him eternal life----the last Adam.
Appendix to my last post:

ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο. literally ‘he has made (him, the Father) known. The only one who can truly know the Father well enough to “make him known” or reveal that which has been yet unseen or known is one who is capable of knowing the Father completely; only God can understand God completely. God is a type of being, as a human is a type of being.

Doug
 
God not being a man means just what it says. Scripture makes the declaration that God is not a man ---- Num. 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Hosea 11:9 and Job 9:32. I am not playing games of 'gotcha' and I don't believe God is either.
Those passages refer to God not being like a man in the manner of his actions or being. They do not mean that God is incapable of becoming a man, for that would mean he is not capable of incarnation, and thus not omnipotent.

(And don’t say the “he cannot lie” retort, for that is a non sequitur argument. Lying is a moral construct whereas becoming human is a physical/material construct.)

Doug
 
John 1:18 18No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· μονογενὴς Θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ Πατρὸς, ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο.

1)Θεὸν is translated God without the article (and there are many other examples of this as well.)

2) Θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ Πατρὸς,
Theos ho on is a compound nominative where the article applies to both the proper noun and the unwritten implied pronoun; God the (one) existing in the bosom of the Father.

3) τὸν κόλπον τοῦ Πατρὸς: The bosom indicates that the son in the most intimate relationship with the father, and strongly implies that the one from the Father, the one from his inward bosom, is necessarily of the same substance, such as Paul teaches in Phil 2, saying “who, although being in very substance God”. You cannot come from the bosom of God without being God. It can be rightly said that my son is from my bosom, and he is therefore as human as I am human.

Doug
Thanks for the word study.

I agree that the Son has an intimate relationship with God his Father but I don't agree that God has an intimate relationship with Himself, i.e. the Father, the only true God. bosom - kolpos - 1) the front of the body between the arms; 2) the bosom of a garment, i.e. the hollow formed by the upper forepart of a rather loose garment bound by a girdle or sash, used for keeping and carrying things (the fold or pocket); 3) a bay of the sea. I don't see that as meaning 'You can't come from the bosom of God without being God'. How is your child from your bosom?

Philippians 2 doesn't read 'being in the very substance God'. Most translations read en morphē Theou - 'in the form of God' and I would say that the man Jesus Christ, the Son of God would classify as being 'in the form of God' since he could rightly say 'whoever has seen me has seen the Father' because he fully represented God his Father in word and deed - He came in the name of the Father - He came in the name of the LORD.
I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him. God is not talking about Himself here.
 
the Son, whom he has established heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the effulgence of his glory and the expression of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, (Heb. 1:2-3)
 
Appendix to my last post:

ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο. literally ‘he has made (him, the Father) known. The only one who can truly know the Father well enough to “make him known” or reveal that which has been yet unseen or known is one who is capable of knowing the Father completely; only God can understand God completely. God is a type of being, as a human is a type of being.

Doug
Yes, Jesus Christ came to make known the Father ---- His Father of whom he says is the only true God. Or the only one who can make him known and is capable of knowing God completely would be his Son. The one like Moses whom God raised up - in whom God will put his words and the one who shall speak all that God commands him to speak in HIS name.
What do you mean: God is a type of being, as a human is a type of being? Of course. God is Spirit. Jesus is a human being.
Jesus has to be a human being in order to pay the penalty that humans incurred. ---- The wages of sin is death......
Those passages refer to God not being like a man in the manner of his actions or being. They do not mean that God is incapable of becoming a man, for that would mean he is not capable of incarnation, and thus not omnipotent.

(And don’t say the “he cannot lie” retort, for that is a non sequitur argument. Lying is a moral construct whereas becoming human is a physical/material construct.)

Doug
God cannot morally sin at all being who He is, i.e. God! All to the point God keeps his word, you can trust and rely on him because he is not a man, he is not like human beings which is exactly what separates God from his creatures!!! He is the Creator not one of his created human beings.

Why would God have all these prophecies concerning the coming Messiah and never once say he is coming as his own Messiah? Why did God say he so loved the world that he GAVE his ONLY SON when he actually gave himself? If we must believe that Jesus is God for salvation then WHY, WHY not declare it clearly, plainly, and succinctly? Apparently that is not what we must believe! God readily made available clearly, plainly, and succinctly what we should believe for salvation .... throughout scripture salvation comes through faith in the Son of God, the Messiah, Jesus Christ.
 
I believe sincere Unitarians can still be saved, but they've let in deception in their life somewhere.

"Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming," Says the LORD of hosts.
"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? (Mal. 3:1-2)

Notice the Messenger is called the Lord directly, and the temple is called the Messenger's temple.

And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God (Isa. 9:6)
 
At the time this was written, there was no incarnation.

You will not find it repeated in the NT.
Why would I need it repeated? Scripture is scripture and scripture cannot be broken.
 
wrong post
 
I believe sincere Unitarians can still be saved, but they've let in deception in their life somewhere.
Unitarians are saved. We believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David, etc. We know the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is the only true God and we know Jesus Christ is the one whom he sent.
"Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming," Says the LORD of hosts.
"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? (Mal. 3:1-2)

Notice the Messenger is called the Lord directly, and the temple is called the Messenger's temple.
In the OT when LORD is in all caps it is referring to Yahweh, aka God.
When it is not in all caps; it refers to someone other than Yahweh, aka God.
Behold I will send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. .... is quoted in Matthew 11:10; Mark 1:2; and Luke 7:27, and in Matthew and Luke, Jesus identifies this “messenger” as John the Baptist.
And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God (Isa. 9:6)
This is not about Jesus but is referring to a child at that time period who was recently born namely Hezekiah the king; a human king. It is never once quoted in the NT in reference to Jesus.
 
What do you mean: God is a type of being, as a human is a type of being?
Human, canine, feline, and God are types of being. They may have similarities but they are different classes of being.

God is defined, in part, as being eternal, thus, uncreated and self-sustaining, and Omni in every capacity. Any who have all these attributes are necessarily God in nature of being.

Since at the point of the beginning the Word already “was”, past tense, he is necessarily eternal in nature, thus God!

Doug
 
Human, canine, feline, and God are types of being. They may have similarities but they are different classes of being.
Oh, like this: And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so.......So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. [Genesis 1:11,21] Yes, DNA, genetic makeup, chromosomes, etc. make up these 'kinds'.
So, are you implying God shared DNA with Mary and produced God in the womb of Mary?
God is defined, in part, as being eternal, thus, uncreated and self-sustaining, and Omni in every capacity. Any who have all these attributes are necessarily God in nature of being.
God is defined IN PART? what does that mean? God IS eternal, immortal, uncreated, selfsustaining, all knowing, all powerful, etc. THAT IS WHO HE IS - that's what separates him FROM US.
Since at the point of the beginning the Word already “was”, past tense, he is necessarily eternal in nature, thus God!

Doug
The logos is not a human being in John 1:1 nor is the logos equivalent to being God, i.e. equal in value or function. The logos is qualitatively God, i.e. characteristics, qualities. God's characterisics, God's qualities : love, mercy, kindness, gracious, faithfulness, forgiving became flesh and dwelt among us and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. God didn't become a human being.
 
There are time periods in effect for some truths.

It's why you're not killing animal sacrifices, and the Old Covenant is over.
Yes, and both are stated in scripture......when the Old Covenant ended and when the New Covenant began. We can't change the fact that scripture cannot be broken.
God can be referred to as simply Lord, instead of Lord Yahweh or sometimes Lord Elohim. (Isa. 9:8, Dan 9:3, as examples.)
Yes, it all depends on context and here in Malachi 3 the Lord whom they seek is the Promised Messiah.
 
bosom - kolpos - 1) the front of the body between the arms; 2) the bosom of a garment, i.e. the hollow formed by the upper forepart of a rather loose garment bound by a girdle or sash, used for keeping and carrying things (the fold or pocket); 3) a bay of the sea. I don't see that as meaning 'You can't come from the bosom of God without being God'. How is your child from your bosom?
Thayer: μορφή form differs from σχῆμα figure, shape, fashion, as that which is intrinsic and essential, from that which is outward and accidental. So in the main Bengel, Philippi, others, on Romans 12:2; but the distinction is rejected by many; see Meyer and especially Fritzsche, in the place cited Yet the last-named commentator makes μορφή δούλου in Philippians, the passage cited relate to the complete form, or nature, of a servant; and σχῆμα to the external form, or human body.]

The same word is used of Jesus in relation being both Gos and a servant in human form. The idea of bosom and Morphē are united in the common sense of essential essence of reality and close connection. The bosom of anything represents the closest proximity of something to something else. The bay of the sea is the closest part of the sea to land. The bosom of Abraham is his chest/heart that Lazarus leaned upon. The bosom of the Father is the most inward and intimate part of God; that is where the Son is from and has always been. It a place only someone on par with God can be. That’s why we can only go there in and through Christ; he is the only one that can be “from God”.


Doug
 
The logos is not a human being in John 1:1 nor is the logos equivalent to being God, i.e. equal in value or function. The logos is qualitatively God, i.e. characteristics, qualities. God's characterisics, God's qualities
Exactly, which would include being eternally existent, uncreated! Everything God is Christ is!

I never said that the Logos was human in John 1:1, I said he already existed in the beginning. He existed prior to the point of the beginning of creation and whatever has been created. Only God existed before creation. If the Logos was there, he is God in nature of being.


Doug
 
Thayer: μορφή form differs from σχῆμα figure, shape, fashion, as that which is intrinsic and essential, from that which is outward and accidental. So in the main Bengel, Philippi, others, on Romans 12:2; but the distinction is rejected by many; see Meyer and especially Fritzsche, in the place cited Yet the last-named commentator makes μορφή δούλου in Philippians, the passage cited relate to the complete form, or nature, of a servant; and σχῆμα to the external form, or human body.]
Strong's - (G3444) morphe - 1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; 2) external appearance
Thayer's - matching Strong's G3444 - the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance:
A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament, E.W. Bullinger; Phil. 2:6 carries the same meaning as in Mark 16:12 After these things he appeared in another form to two of them, as they were walking into the country - which also pertains to the external appearance. I don't need their commentaries for these are all Trinitarian authors and will have a Trinitarian bias.

Anyway, I cannot find any reference to 'nature' related to 'form of God' nor 'form of a servant' which is where the contrast lies.
The same word is used of Jesus in relation being both Gos and a servant in human form. The idea of bosom and Morphē are united in the common sense of essential essence of reality and close connection. The bosom of anything represents the closest proximity of something to something else. The bay of the sea is the closest part of the sea to land. The bosom of Abraham is his chest/heart that Lazarus leaned upon. The bosom of the Father is the most inward and intimate part of God; that is where the Son is from and has always been. It a place only someone on par with God can be. That’s why we can only go there in and through Christ; he is the only one that can be “from God”.

Doug
Correct. 'form of God' and 'form of a servant' --- a comparison of the two

Philippians 2:3a Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit --- form of God brings with it a status something that can be exploited and serve one's own purpose;
Philippians 2:3b,4 but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. ----- form of a servant - denies self and thinks on the interest of others
Let this mind (attitude) be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

We also have Paul as an example of having this same attitude which was in Christ Jesus at Philippians 3:4-11. He had all these accolades but emptied himself - whatever he had he counted it all as loss:

though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
bosom and form are two completely different words. They are not even synonymous with one another.
I agree that Jesus and his Father have a very close and intimate relationship. It is NOT where the Son is 'from' - if you mean by from 'originated'.

No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in a close and intimate relationship with the Father, has declared him.
 
Exactly, which would include being eternally existent, uncreated! Everything God is Christ is!
The logos is not a human being in John 1:1 nor is the logos equivalent to being God, i.e. equal in value or function. The logos is qualitatively God, i.e. characteristics, qualities. God's characteristics, God's qualities : love, mercy, kindness, gracious, faithfulness, forgiving became flesh and dwelt among us and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. God didn't become a human being.
I specifically listed some of God's characteristics and qualities in my post which it seems you deliberately left out when you quoted me. These things are characteristics and qualities NOT attributes EXCLUSIVE to God - eternally existent, uncreated, immortal, self sufficient all knowing, all powerful - those things are intrinsic to the nature of God and make God WHO HE IS - Yahweh, aka Almighty God, aka the Most High God.
I never said that the Logos was human in John 1:1, I said he already existed in the beginning. He existed prior to the point of the beginning of creation and whatever has been created. Only God existed before creation. If the Logos was there, he is God in nature of being.

Doug
Since at the point of the beginning the Word already “was”, past tense, he is necessarily eternal in nature, thus God!

Doug
You are speaking of the word as a 'he' - a person or either you are using personification as scripture does.
 
I specifically listed some of God's characteristics and qualities in my post which it seems you deliberately left out when you quoted me. These things are characteristics and qualities NOT attributes EXCLUSIVE to God - eternally existent, uncreated, immortal, self sufficient all knowing, all powerful - those things are intrinsic to the nature of God and make God WHO HE IS - Yahweh, aka Almighty God, aka the Most High God.


You are speaking of the word as a 'he' - a person or either you are using personification as scripture does.
silly point. a person does not have to be "personified."

The logos is not a human being in John 1:1 nor is the logos equivalent to being God, i.e. equal in value or function. The logos is qualitatively God, i.e. characteristics, qualities. God's characterisics, God's qualities : love, mercy, kindness, gracious, faithfulness, forgiving became flesh and dwelt among us and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. God didn't become a human being.
Funny how you note the Word has the characteristics of God. You should have recognized that the Word has the same nature as God. It is indivisible. And you are almost right that God did not become a human being. The Word remains in continuity with his existence. The Word did not cease existence in becoming flesh. We could express this as you not changing who you are just because you became a wife. Then also God knows how to interact with creation and can be as Jesus in the flesh. Stop denying what God can do just because you cannot comprehend what he has done.
 
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