Lordship Salvation in a Nutshell

[Pancho Frijoles]

do you think unbelievers , those not born of the Spirit can do good works that justify them ?

If they do good works (genuinely good works, those made out of love), it is BECAUSE they are born of the Spirit, and they are not really unbelievers. Otherwise they would not do good works.

The Scriptures do not present "neutral trees" to evaluate. Either they produce good fruit, or they don't. Good fruits mean good trees. Bad fruits mean bad trees.

 

[Watchman]

@DavidTree

I did find this and it seems to pretty much go along with what you're talking about.

First, Hodges notes, “MacArthur argues (pp. 172–73) that Ephesians 2:8–9 teach that ‘the entire process of grace, faith, and salvation’ is ‘the gift of God.’ This assertion is unfounded.… The Bible never affirms that saving faith per se is a gift.” According Hodges, MacArthur apparently gives God too much credit, since “God does everything, including the impartation of faith.” Hodges appears shocked that MacArthur would go so far as to say, “Spiritual sight is a gift from God that makes one willing and able to believe.” He comments, “The theology MacArthur evidently embraces is a formula for despair,” since it leaves nothing for humans to do in the matter of their new birth and justification (p. 219 n. 1).

Michael Horton, “Introduction: Don’t Judge a Book by Its Cover,” in Christ the Lord: The Reformation and Lordship Salvation,

Nothing for humans to do re. new birth and justification ... why, that sounds like we need God's grace, because we are dead towards God in trespasses and sins! That is only a formula for despair in oneself; but, it leads one to cry out to God for mercy.

 

[360watt]

You gotta be born again by placing your faith in Jesus.

Then once saved... it is possible to 'turn from sins'

But 'turning from sins ' as popular as it is to say.. is not placing your faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Its putting your trust in your own turning...rather than on Jesus Christ.

That is a primary problem with Lordship salvation.

The life long commitment of good works has to come AFTER salvation.

 

[Soyeong]

You gotta be born again by placing your faith in Jesus.

Then once saved... it is possible to 'turn from sins'

But 'turning from sins ' as popular as it is to say.. is not placing your faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Its putting your trust in your own turning...rather than on Jesus Christ.

That is a primary problem with Lordship salvation.

The life long commitment of good works has to come AFTER salvation.

Someone is who born again is in Christ's likeness and who is turning from their sins and who is being saved from their sin. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so it is not the case that we need to become saved first, then we will do those works or that we need to have done those works first, then become saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation. It is contradictory to think that are trusting in ourselves by trusting in Gods instructions. We can't trust in God's word made flesh instead of trusting in God's word, but rather God's word is His instructions for how to trust in God's word made flesh.

 

[Watchman]

You gotta be born again by placing your faith in Jesus.

Then once saved... it is possible to 'turn from sins'

But 'turning from sins ' as popular as it is to say.. is not placing your faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Its putting your trust in your own turning...rather than on Jesus Christ.

That is a primary problem with Lordship salvation.

The life long commitment of good works has to come AFTER salvation.

You have to be born again, in order to have faith in Jesus Christ. As Jesus told Nicodemus, in John 3, we MUST be born again, in order to see and enter the Kingdom of God (and we know that entry to the Kingdom of God is through faith in Jesus Christ).

Also, the biblical order, when both are mentioned together, is always "repent and believe". The Greek word translated "repent" means to change your mind. You cannot trust in Jesus, unless you have a changed mind (because the natural man hates the light and will not come to it (John 19,20) and he does not receive the things of the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:14).

Lordship salvation is nothing to do with trusting in your own turning, especially since repentance and faith are both gifts from God, not something produced by sinful man.

Lordship salvation is simply acknowledging who Jesus is - our Lord and Saviour (always in that order, biblically). Those who seek to split those apart and have him as Saviour only are, in effect, rejecting Jesus as Lord (we will not have this man to rule over us...).

 

[civic]

You have to be born again, in order to have faith in Jesus Christ. As Jesus told Nicodemus, in John 3, we MUST be born again, in order to see and enter the Kingdom of God (and we know that entry to the Kingdom of God is through faith in Jesus Christ).

Also, the biblical order, when both are mentioned together, is always "repent and believe". The Greek word translated "repent" means to change your mind. You cannot trust in Jesus, unless you have a changed mind (because the natural man hates the light and will not come to it (John 19,20) and he does not receive the things of the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:14).

Lordship salvation is nothing to do with trusting in your own turning, especially since repentance and faith are both gifts from God, not something produced by sinful man.

Lordship salvation is simply acknowledging who Jesus is - our Lord and Saviour (always in that order, biblically). Those who seek to split those apart and have him as Saviour only are, in effect, rejecting Jesus as Lord (we will not have this man to rule over us...).

we know biblically faith always precedes life.

Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.


Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
Calvinism has it backwards with life,regeneration, the new birth preceding faith.

conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.

1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life


hope this helps !!!

 

[Watchman]

we know biblically faith always precedes life.

Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

That passage (Ez. 18:30-32) was spoken to Israel, under law. The law is all about "Do this and you will be blessed; do that and you will be cursed.". This is not the way of the New Covenant, which is, "I will do this for and in you; and you will be blessed.". In other words, there is a contrast between works righteousness and salvation by grace, which you appear to have overlooked.

John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

Unfortunately, the translation you have quoted obscures the order of these events with its word order.

John 1:12,13 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

We should note that "...to them that believe on his name..." is present tense, but that "Which were born ... of God." is in the past. In other words, the order of events is that having been born of God preceded believing on his name.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.

Repentance/faith do indeed precede the giving to us of eternal life in Christ; but, they follow the giving to us of renewed human life in being born again.

Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
Calvinism has it backwards with life,regeneration, the new birth preceding faith.

conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.

1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life


hope this helps !!!

The real issue here seems to be a conflation of the new human heart/spirit that God gives us in regeneration, with the eternal life that he gives us in Christ, following repentance/faith in him. Without appreciating this difference, confusion is the result (including causing some Scriptures to appear to conflict with others).

 

[360watt]

we know biblically faith always precedes life.

Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.


Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
Calvinism has it backwards with life,regeneration, the new birth preceding faith.

conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.

1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life


hope this helps !!!

Yes, its like trying to put the accelerator down on a car with the engine off for Calvinism.

Start the car... then its possible to use it.

Place your faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (which is in itself repenting) .. then you are saved and can start the walk with Jesus.

The believer may not also persevere in the faith. That doesn't mean they hadn't placed their faith in Jesus Christ and got saved.

The Holy Spirit will discipline them as His child if they fail to persevere. But there is no guarantee they will persevere.

 

[civic]

That passage (Ez. 18:30-32) was spoken to Israel, under law. The law is all about "Do this and you will be blessed; do that and you will be cursed.". This is not the way of the New Covenant, which is, "I will do this for and in you; and you will be blessed.". In other words, there is a contrast between works righteousness and salvation by grace, which you appear to have overlooked.


Unfortunately, the translation you have quoted obscures the order of these events with its word order.

John 1:12,13 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

We should note that "...to them that believe on his name..." is present tense, but that "Which were born ... of God." is in the past. In other words, the order of events is that having been born of God preceded believing on his name.


Repentance/faith do indeed precede the giving to us of eternal life in Christ; but, they follow the giving to us of renewed human life in being born again.



The real issue here seems to be a conflation of the new human heart/spirit that God gives us in regeneration, with the eternal life that he gives us in Christ, following repentance/faith in him. Without appreciating this difference, confusion is the result (including causing some Scriptures to appear to conflict with others).

the new birth comes after the hearing and believing in the gospel.

1- you have been born again
2- through the living and enduring word of God
3- this was the word that was preached to you.

so we see the new birth is a result of hearing and believing the preaching of the word of God. the gospel message.

James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.

1 Peter 1:25
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

1 Peter 1:21-24
Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. 22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”
And this is the word that was preached to you.

 

[Watchman]

the new birth comes after the hearing and believing in the gospel.

1- you have been born again
2- through the living and enduring word of God
3- this was the word that was preached to you.

so we see the new birth is a result of hearing and believing the preaching of the word of God. the gospel message.

James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.

1 Peter 1:25
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

1 Peter 1:21-24
Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. 22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”
And this is the word that was preached to you.

The Scriptures are fine, but you have added something that is not there. None of them says that the new birth is a result of hearing and believing the preaching of the word of God. What they do say is that we are born again through the word of truth, which is what I have been saying all along.

1) We hear the gospel

2) The Holy Spirit makes us born again

3) The new, soft heart/spirit repents and believes the gospel

4) We are given the Holy Spirit to indwell

2) and 3) cannot be reversed, for several reasons:

The natural (i.e. unregenerate) man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, because they are foolishness to him.

The natural man hates the light and will not come to it.

We must be born again, in order to see and enter the Kingdom of God; and we know that entering the Kingdom of God is through faith in Jesus Christ, so being born again has to come first.

Now, these things happen in a moment of time, but the logical order is an absolute necessity.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

2) The Holy Spirit makes us born again

3) The new, soft heart/spirit repents and believes the gospel

...

2) and 3) cannot be reversed, for several reasons:

...

Now, these things happen in a moment of time, but the logical order is an absolute necessity.

If 2 and 3 happen in a moment of time, distinguishing 2 from 3 has no practical relevance.
Furthermore, the order has no practical relevance because Jesus explained to Nicodemus that a person is born again by the water and spirit.
Water (the baptism) is a symbol of repentance, of the willingness to have our old life buried.
So, if "being born again" (step 2) requires repentance (step 3), we could say step 3 is required to step 2.

Perhaps what you want to say is that the Holy Spirit first enables us to repent. The Holy Spirit sensibilizes our spirit to repent.
I agree with that. Before anything that we perceive as a human action, there is an action from God that enables that human action. God comes always first. Praise to Him!