Let's Begin with the End

[mikesw]

To look at Biblical eschatology properly it probably helps to begin with the end. What end is expressed? End of transitional events? End of the world? End of an era?

The starting point for this concept can be Matt 24:3 ... what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age? It can be asked what end they had in mind. One problem existing here is that commentators have not seemed to examine that type of end they would have in mind.

Hippolytus when writing around the start of the third century assumed there was an end of the physical world so as to be replaced by a whole new earth. These early writers saw the world too much in corruption and turmoil. This seems to be also why Matt 24:3 may have the translation "end of the world" at times. But it must be asked what concept the disciples had of the end of the age (not end of the world ).

To that goal, it may be thought that Jesus had introduced an end concept that was shared with the disciples but not recorded within the gospels. This then could be proposed to be the end of the world, which almost makes sense with the apocalyptic language that follows in Matt 24.

However, when assuming the idea such as an end of the world, the basic interpretation process has been overlooked. People could overlook that process and miss how a challenge could occur to concepts popular concerning Matthew 24 and other eschatological passages. Nevertheless, the primary path to take in the evaluation of Matthew 24 involves an examination of the end of the age or any other sense of an end found within scripture. Of this sort of passage, several can be examined as a starting point. These passages can be considered together when defining the type of end explicit in scripture.

Deuteronomy 32:28–29 “For they are a nation void of counsel, and there is no understanding in them. 29 If they were wise, they would understand this; they would discern their latter end!”

Daniel 8:19 He said, “Behold, I will make known to you what shall be at the latter end of the indignation, for it refers to the appointed time of the end.

Several additional verses with mention of an end appear in Daniel. The root for Daniel's use appears in Deut 32:28-29 regarding an end anticipated by Moses. The people of concern in Daniel also is that of Israel, especially as the end of the seventy year exile in Babylon was coming to an end. Although the book includes issues of four empires, those are explained in the context of judgment of Israel.

Close wording of “latter end” can be observed between Deut 32:28-29 and Dan 8:19. Additionally, the end of Dan 8:19 arises in context with the destruction of the sanctuary found in v 11, thus creating a nexus with Matt 24:3 as well as the broad text of Matt 24. An additional relationship of Dan 12 with Deut 32:29 occurs both with the emphasis of wisdom (Dan 12:3), the loss of power of the Israel people (v7) and the end (v7). This end concerns all the things mentioned in Daniel,which includes the loss of the city and the sanctuary and end of their power. The whole of Daniel applies to the fate of Israel and some signs of hope, such as everlasting righteousness (Dan 9:24) and resurrection (Dan 12:2-3).

There may be other passages that speak of the end similarly to what Daniel shows. It seems unlikely that any other sense exists than already described. No concern appears about an end of the world. Perhaps some examination of the apocalyptic language will be necessary, but that examination would expectantly show such language constrained to the events described in Daniel. And the language befits, in its vividness, scenarios such as the shattering of the people of Israel.

 

[Red Baker]

@mikesw

To that goal, it may be thought that Jesus had introduced an end concept that was shared with the disciples but not recorded within the gospels. This then could be proposed to be the end of the world, which almost makes sense with the apocalyptic language that follows in Matt 24.

However, when assuming the idea such as an end of the world, the basic interpretation process has been overlooked. People could overlook that process and miss how a challenge could occur to concepts popular concerning Matthew 24 and other eschatological passages. Nevertheless, the primary path to take in the evaluation of Matthew 24 involves an examination of the end of the age or any other sense of an end found within scripture. Of this sort of passage, several can be examined as a starting point. These passages can be considered together when defining the type of end explicit in scripture.

Greetings Mike,

The end that is mentioned in the Olivet Discourse is quickly and easily seen and it would not take very much to see the truth on this end, and the overall subject under consideration. All one needs to do is first laid aside their own bias agenda as much as that is possible, and I well know sometimes it is very hard to do.

Mike, do you not agree that Matthew 24 does not stand alone, but Matthew 25 is part of this discourse, and knowing that to be true, the end under consideration is without question ~ the end of this world as we know it.

I would love to discuss the Olivet discourse with you and others. We can take any section, or verse by verse and go through Matthews 24 and 25.

What I can assure you and I have debated this section of God's word many times over in years gone by, that there is not a verse where you could find support for 70 A.D. theory, not one. That's a bold statement and I'm ready to back it up with proof over and over again.

 

[Selah]

Well looky here…. It looks like this earth age as we know it will end at the Great White Throne Judgment after the Millennium, making way for new heavens and a new earth!

2 Peter 3:7 (KJV) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:10-13 (KJV) 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

—selah

 

[armylngst]

To look at Biblical eschatology properly it probably helps to begin with the end. What end is expressed? End of transitional events? End of the world? End of an era?

The starting point for this concept can be Matt 24:3 ... what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age? It can be asked what end they had in mind. One problem existing here is that commentators have not seemed to examine that type of end they would have in mind.

Hippolytus when writing around the start of the third century assumed there was an end of the physical world so as to be replaced by a whole new earth. These early writers saw the world too much in corruption and turmoil. This seems to be also why Matt 24:3 may have the translation "end of the world" at times. But it must be asked what concept the disciples had of the end of the age (not end of the world ).

To that goal, it may be thought that Jesus had introduced an end concept that was shared with the disciples but not recorded within the gospels. This then could be proposed to be the end of the world, which almost makes sense with the apocalyptic language that follows in Matt 24.

However, when assuming the idea such as an end of the world, the basic interpretation process has been overlooked. People could overlook that process and miss how a challenge could occur to concepts popular concerning Matthew 24 and other eschatological passages. Nevertheless, the primary path to take in the evaluation of Matthew 24 involves an examination of the end of the age or any other sense of an end found within scripture. Of this sort of passage, several can be examined as a starting point. These passages can be considered together when defining the type of end explicit in scripture.



Several additional verses with mention of an end appear in Daniel. The root for Daniel's use appears in Deut 32:28-29 regarding an end anticipated by Moses. The people of concern in Daniel also is that of Israel, especially as the end of the seventy year exile in Babylon was coming to an end. Although the book includes issues of four empires, those are explained in the context of judgment of Israel.

Close wording of “latter end” can be observed between Deut 32:28-29 and Dan 8:19. Additionally, the end of Dan 8:19 arises in context with the destruction of the sanctuary found in v 11, thus creating a nexus with Matt 24:3 as well as the broad text of Matt 24. An additional relationship of Dan 12 with Deut 32:29 occurs both with the emphasis of wisdom (Dan 12:3), the loss of power of the Israel people (v7) and the end (v7). This end concerns all the things mentioned in Daniel,which includes the loss of the city and the sanctuary and end of their power. The whole of Daniel applies to the fate of Israel and some signs of hope, such as everlasting righteousness (Dan 9:24) and resurrection (Dan 12:2-3).

There may be other passages that speak of the end similarly to what Daniel shows. It seems unlikely that any other sense exists than already described. No concern appears about an end of the world. Perhaps some examination of the apocalyptic language will be necessary, but that examination would expectantly show such language constrained to the events described in Daniel. And the language befits, in its vividness, scenarios such as the shattering of the people of Israel.

My understand, for what is from the Greek according to John MacArthur, is that in the greek, they were asking about the complete end. The consummation of everything. The answer to this question from Jesus is the final judgment before the world is destroyed and we have a new heavens and a new earth. He gives no signs, because He has none to give. Why? Not even He knows when this end will be, only the Father. So all He can say is it will be like the times of Noah. That is, life will be life. Eating, drinking, getting married, etc. In other words, things in the world will be life as usual. And then... the end. People taken to final judgment. It is the end of all that we know now. This age of the world created, time, humans in the flesh, will be over. What is next is the eternal age of the new heavens, new Earth, and new Jerusalem, God dwelling amongst all men.

 

[mikesw]

@mikesw

Greetings Mike,

The end that is mentioned in the Olivet Discourse is quickly and easily seen and it would not take very much to see the truth on this end, and the overall subject under consideration. All one needs to do is first laid aside their own bias agenda as much as that is possible, and I well know sometimes it is very hard to do.

Mike, do you not agree that Matthew 24 does not stand alone, but Matthew 25 is part of this discourse, and knowing that to be true, the end under consideration is without question ~ the end of this world as we know it.

I would love to discuss the Olivet discourse with you and others. We can take any section, or verse by verse and go through Matthews 24 and 25.

What I can assure you and I have debated this section of God's word many times over in years gone by, that there is not a verse where you could find support for 70 A.D. theory, not one. That's a bold statement and I'm ready to back it up with proof over and over again.

It might help me refine my argument if you have some way of saying this is not describing Jerusalem destroyed and the Temple torn down. It is not like that is a yearly event. I have not wondered whether people would deny cautious analysis --instead, how it would be rejected.

 

[mikesw]

Well looky here…. It looks like this earth age as we know it will end at the Great White Throne Judgment after the Millennium, making way for new heavens and a new earth!

2 Peter 3:7 (KJV) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:10-13 (KJV) 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

—selah

Then Peter would be writing to an audience that would still be around two thousand years after he wrote the letter (2Pet3:11). What we have in Matt 24:3 is the only sense of an end that we have defined in scripture, namely the end of Jerusalem and the Temple. Since Daniel ties all the Temple destruction and the end of the power of the people together, how does a reader find an alternative meaning of the end they have in mind? Daniel shares the same topics as Matt 24.
Certainly the disciples would see the fall of Jerusalem and the Temple's destruction as both Daniel and Matthew 24 reveal. It also would be expected that the disciples' understanding is the end of their people's power and the full end spoken of them in Daniel and even Deuteronomy 32.

 

[mikesw]

@mikesw

Greetings Mike,

The end that is mentioned in the Olivet Discourse is quickly and easily seen and it would not take very much to see the truth on this end, and the overall subject under consideration. All one needs to do is first laid aside their own bias agenda as much as that is possible, and I well know sometimes it is very hard to do.

Mike, do you not agree that Matthew 24 does not stand alone, but Matthew 25 is part of this discourse, and knowing that to be true, the end under consideration is without question ~ the end of this world as we know it.

I would love to discuss the Olivet discourse with you and others. We can take any section, or verse by verse and go through Matthews 24 and 25.

What I can assure you and I have debated this section of God's word many times over in years gone by, that there is not a verse where you could find support for 70 A.D. theory, not one. That's a bold statement and I'm ready to back it up with proof over and over again.

Let me take this discussion to a question of earlier context.

Do you recognize that Jews and the form of Judaism of the first century had come to a place of judgment for being too distorted and corrupted? In that context, judgment was not done on that generation solely for rejection of Jesus but for the broader rejection of godliness. I recognize if that background has been missed since I do not recall anyone teaching on that. Even studies of Paul's view on works of the law fails to set his concerns in view of the judgment falling on Jerusalem and Judaism that had been prophesied even to Moses' writings.

 

[Red Baker]

@mikesw

Let me take this discussion to a question of earlier context.

Do you recognize that Jews and the form of Judaism of the first century had come to a place of judgment for being too distorted and corrupted? In that context, judgment was not done on that generation solely for rejection of Jesus but for the broader rejection of godliness. I recognize if that background has been missed since I do not recall anyone teaching on that. Even studies of Paul's view on works of the law fails to set his concerns in view of the judgment falling on Jerusalem and Judaism that had been prophesied even to Moses' writings.

Good morning Mike,

I'll be brief, but will add to this later. I just got home from the hospital last last night, and still I'm weak. But, I'm posting if the body of sin and death does not first get to me.

It is true that Judaism had deteriorated into just a form of worship, more so for man glory, than for its original temporary purpose, until the time of reformation, of going for shadow and types, to the promised Messiah, and the revelation of God's covenant of grace, which covenant was far better in every way than the Old covenant of works. You said:

In that context, judgment was not done on that generation solely for rejection of Jesus but for the broader rejection of godliness. I recognize if that background has been missed since I do not recall anyone teaching on that.

Mike, that's a tactic used more by the Preterist than the other of the three schools of eschatologies preached among men. The truth is this: God was forever finished with the Jews' religion at the resurrection of Jesus Christ and his enthronement to David' Throne at God's right hand, or being as high as any man (Even though Jesus Christ is both the True God and eternal life, and the Son of Man, in his humanity, being born of a woman) possible could be exalted to, since God truly does not not have body parts, being an invisible Spirit that lives in eternity, always has, always will, that will never change, no not never.

So, God brought in a much better covenant than the Jews formally lived under, even though the very elect among them understood the everlasting covenant of grace and them being part of that covenant which covenant they were looking forward to be revealed, that is, those that had true understanding of the scriptures which only a few of them did, which is proven by many scriptures. Being a prophet David said:

2nd Samuel 23:5​

“Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.”

Luke 2:25-38~And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

God has never revealed truths to the multitudes, but to a few here and there over time ~ even the holy apostles were very slow of coming to the knowledge of the truth which only the Spirit of God can reveal to us, according to His timing, not ours.

Let me come back and look at the phrase: "This generation" from Matthew 24:34 before I add much more as to WHY Jerusalem and its religion was done away with and destroyed ~ it is not that hard to follow, unless one is protecting their bias agenda that they find hard to let go of.

 

[mikesw]

@mikesw

Good morning Mike,

I'll be brief, but will add to this later. I just got home from the hospital last last night, and still I'm weak. But, I'm posting if the body of sin and death does not first get to me.

It is true that Judaism had deteriorated into just a form of worship, more so for man glory, than for its original temporary purpose, until the time of reformation, of going for shadow and types, to the promised Messiah, and the revelation of God's covenant of grace, which covenant was far better in every way than the Old covenant of works. You said:

Mike, that's a tactic used more by the Preterist than the other of the three schools of eschatologies preached among men. The truth is this: God was forever finished with the Jews' religion at the resurrection of Jesus Christ and his enthronement to David' Throne at God's right hand, or being as high as any man (Even though Jesus Christ is both the True God and eternal life, and the Son of Man, in his humanity, being born of a woman) possible could be exalted to, since God truly does not not have body parts, being an invisible Spirit that lives in eternity, always has, always will, that will never change, no not never.

So, God brought in a much better covenant than the Jews formally lived under, even though the very elect among them understood the everlasting covenant of grace and them being part of that covenant which covenant they were looking forward to be revealed, that is, those that had true understanding of the scriptures which only a few of them did, which is proven by many scriptures. Being a prophet David said:

2nd Samuel 23:5​

“Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.”

God has never revealed truths to the multitudes, but to a few here and there over time ~ even the holy apostles were very slow of coming to the knowledge of the truth which only the Spirit of God can reveal to us, according to His timing, not ours.

Let me come back and look at the phrase: "This generation" from Matthew 24:34 before I add much more as to WHY Jerusalem and its religion was done away with and destroyed ~ it is not that hard to follow, unless one is protecting their bias agenda that they find hard to let go of.

Praying for your recovery...
Your answer then, from how I read it, is "yes." You have recognized judgment on the people of Israel and Judaism. The details of the people after that involve nuances not necessary at the moment where you have rejection of some sort of Preterist tactic but then affirm the end that I mention from scripture.
The detail that is unclear is whether you have seen OT prophecy as essentially focused on that moment of judgment on the people and a transition to a new era, revealing how those people would be who were to be found in Jerusalem afterwards. What is the range of prophets who have shared that at some level or another?
Maybe others will share whether they recognize OT prophecy about that moment of judgment happening in what we see in the NT.

 

[mikesw]

Mike, that's a tactic used more by the Preterist than the other of the three schools of eschatologies preached among men. The truth is this: God was forever finished with the Jews' religion at the resurrection of Jesus Christ and his enthronement to David' Throne at God's right hand, or being as high as any man (Even though Jesus Christ is both the True God and eternal life, and the Son of Man, in his humanity, being born of a woman) possible could be exalted to, since God truly does not not have body parts, being an invisible Spirit that lives in eternity, always has, always will, that will never change, no not never.

I am not sure what tactics are used by Preterists or other eschatological camps. I suppose you are talking about the idea of this judgment happening in the first century but the people and "religion" remaining intact for a future time. However, that was not something underlying my thinking behind what I posted. In fact, I have shown that the prophecy was about the end of that era. Hopefully I am responding to the right issue or concept raised.

 

[mikesw]

Paul presents that first-century era within the end of Israel, except for the remnant who came to Christ. This broadly appears in his argument of God's faithfulness despite the low outcome. I cannot lay that analysis out in any brief sense, but it can be seen in Rom 9:27-29 that only the remnant was saved. Then, the context of Isaiah is Isa 10:20-23, where v 23 shows that this was the end that was happening.
Interestingly, Paul was sharing his personal investigation how God could be seen as faithful to Israel despite the low acceptance of salvation by his people. Yet, he realized that all Israel were becoming saved because they were of the remnant that God promised would be saved.

 

[Selah]

Paul presents that first-century era within the end of Israel, except for the remnant who came to Christ. This broadly appears in his argument of God's faithfulness despite the low outcome. I cannot lay that analysis out in any brief sense, but it can be seen in Rom 9:27-29 that only the remnant was saved. Then, the context of Isaiah is Isa 10:20-23, where v 23 shows that this was the end that was happening.
Interestingly, Paul was sharing his personal investigation how God could be seen as faithful to Israel despite the low acceptance of salvation by his people. Yet, he realized that all Israel were becoming saved because they were of the remnant that God promised would be saved.

Yes. It’s at the end.

God promises that on the day of the Lord, the last day of this earth age, those who were sealed from all twelve tribes, the 144,000, as described in the book of Revelation 7, will not be deceived by the Antichrist (the Assyrian) and will be sealed. This is yet future.

Revelation 7:2-4 (NKJV) 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred [and] forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel [were] sealed:
Isaiah 10:20-25 (NKJV) 20 And it shall come to pass in that day [That] the remnant of Israel, And such as have escaped of the house of Jacob, Will never again depend on him who defeated them, But will depend on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. 21 The remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, To the Mighty God. 22 For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea, A remnant of them will return; The destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness. 23 For the Lord GOD of hosts Will make a determined end In the midst of all the land. 24 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD of hosts: “O My people, who dwell in Zion, do not be afraid of the Assyrian. He shall strike you with a rod and lift up his staff against you, in the manner of Egypt. 25 “For yet a very little while and the indignation will cease, as will My anger in their destruction.”

 

[mikesw]

Yes. It’s at the end.

God promises that on the day of the Lord, the last day of this earth age, those who were sealed from all twelve tribes, the 144,000, as described in the book of Revelation 7, will not be deceived by the Antichrist (the Assyrian) and will be sealed. This is yet future.

Revelation 7:2-4 (NKJV) 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred [and] forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel [were] sealed:
Isaiah 10:20-25 (NKJV) 20 And it shall come to pass in that day [That] the remnant of Israel, And such as have escaped of the house of Jacob, Will never again depend on him who defeated them, But will depend on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. 21 The remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, To the Mighty God. 22 For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea, A remnant of them will return; The destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness. 23 For the Lord GOD of hosts Will make a determined end In the midst of all the land. 24 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD of hosts: “O My people, who dwell in Zion, do not be afraid of the Assyrian. He shall strike you with a rod and lift up his staff against you, in the manner of Egypt. 25 “For yet a very little while and the indignation will cease, as will My anger in their destruction.”

I think when written out, Romans 9-11 will be rather conclusive that the end had come in the first century. Again, he quoted part of Isa 10:20-23. So it is nearly impossible to deny that fulfillment there. It seems however that vv 24-25 refer back to people of Isaiah's contemporaries. It is not like Assyria itself was restored as an empire in the first century. But people may require more than Paul's testimony to believe Isa 10:20-23 was fulfilled -- or rather -- approaching its completion.
The other approach to take is of viewing Rev 7:2-4 within the context of the past fulfillment of Isa 10:20-23.

The basic argument for God's faithfulness to Israel (as begun in Rom 9:6) is that the remnant of Rom 9:27-29 represents the Israel of promise. Rom 10 further shows that God had been faithful to send the gospel to the people of Israel, but few accepted the report, despite the outreach to gentiles being done in part to create jealousy and awareness of the gospel. The Rom 11 was to show the interaction of gentiles and Jews -- sort of a co-dependence -- such that gentiles should not reject Jews from the gospel and salvation. So Paul shares that they should see it more natural for Jews to be grafted back in. There just was a hardening that happened but was not for the gentiles to use against Jews, but in the end, all Israel was in the process of being saved.

 

[Red Baker]

@mikesw

Praying for your recovery...

Thank you kindly brother, slowly coming around but not out of the woods yet ~ of course, at my age I will not get very far out, and that's okay. ~every day is a act of God's mercy to us and more than we deserve for sure.

Mike, before God, I love you humble spirit, it is obvious to me and I'm sure to others as well, that will serve you greatly in the kingdom of God, good things will surely follow such people, humility is glorious fruit we all need to improve on and cultivate until we take our last breath, may God help us all to be more like Jesus Christ who is the express, and perfect image of God.

The detail that is unclear is whether you have seen OT prophecy as essentially focused on that moment of judgment on the people and a transition to a new era, revealing how those people would be who were to be found in Jerusalem afterwards. What is the range of prophets who have shared that at some level or another?

Mike, very little any OT prophecies as I understand them are focusing on Jerusalem and the Jews during Jesus' generation upon the earth.

As far as the "range" I firmly believe that the OT scriptures and following onto the NT scriptures addressing the war between the righteous and the evil generation of vipers headed up by the the Old Serpent himself. The true biblical message in the scripture is Mount Zion, the New Jerusalem, God's city that he has built for himself to be his habitation; and Mystery Babylon the great, that consist in twofold, or is made up by its false religion and its commerce and entertainment, both which hates the saints of the most high. 70 A.D. theory has diverted much attention away from these truths.

 

[mikesw]

@mikesw

Thank you kindly brother, slowly coming around but not out of the woods yet ~ of course, at my age I will not get very far out, and that's okay. ~every day is a act of God's mercy to us and more than we deserve for sure.

Mike, before God, I love you humble spirit, it is obvious to me and I'm sure to others as well, that will serve you greatly in the kingdom of God, good things will surely follow such people, humility is glorious fruit we all need to improve on and cultivate until we take our last breath, may God help us all to be more like Jesus Christ who is the express, and perfect image of God.

Mike, very little any OT prophecies as I understand them are focusing on Jerusalem and the Jews during Jesus' generation upon the earth.

As far as the "range" I firmly believe that the OT scriptures and following onto the NT scriptures addressing the war between the righteous and the evil generation of vipers headed up by the the Old Serpent himself. The true biblical message in the scripture is Mount Zion, the New Jerusalem, God's city that he has built for himself to be his habitation; and Mystery Babylon the great, that consist in twofold, or is made up by its false religion and its commerce and entertainment, both which hates the saints of the most high. 70 A.D. theory has diverted much attention away from these truths.

All of those events are tied together in the first century by so many passages in the OT and NT that it would be impossible for me to find a way to break off Babylon, the New Jerusalem, the body as the Temple from its connection with the destruction of those elements as they had remained intact until the first-century.
Also, the OT prophecies are so intertwined with the people of Israel and their failings that the inclusion of gentiles was nearly invisible. Paul then has to show the priority of the Jews, for the sake of the patriarchs, followed by the scattered passages showing the gentiles and Jews being equalized in worship of God. In fact, the inclusion of gentiles into benefits with Jews is almost totally lost as a goal of the blessing of nations through the Offspring of Abraham that this inclusion verges on being a surprise through reintroduction through Christ.

All I can do now is share the building blocks of fulfillment in the first century while recognizing your interpretation is too much on a different track. I also recognize that even if I analyze scriptural passages accurately and clearly there would still be people not ready to accept the ideas.

 

[Selah]

All of those events are tied together in the first century by so many passages in the OT and NT that it would be impossible for me to find a way to break off Babylon, the New Jerusalem, the body as the Temple from its connection with the destruction of those elements as they had remained intact until the first-century.
Also, the OT prophecies are so intertwined with the people of Israel and their failings that the inclusion of gentiles was nearly invisible. Paul then has to show the priority of the Jews, for the sake of the patriarchs, followed by the scattered passages showing the gentiles and Jews being equalized in worship of God. In fact, the inclusion of gentiles into benefits with Jews is almost totally lost as a goal of the blessing of nations through the Offspring of Abraham that this inclusion verges on being a surprise through reintroduction through Christ.

All I can do now is share the building blocks of fulfillment in the first century while recognizing your interpretation is too much on a different track. I also recognize that even if I analyze scriptural passages accurately and clearly there would still be people not ready to accept the ideas.

You don’t hold much to prophecy then?

 

[mikesw]

You don’t hold much to prophecy then?

I am examining prophecy in its context. I'm hoping that people will prefer that. If someone disagrees, that is just something to be expected. It is not as if everyone agrees on the meaning of the prophetic passages anyhow. Maybe I can help people investigate more about important ideas about scripture.

Since Christians are not likely to be affected much by common eschatological interpretations and what I have found, my bigger concern would be that Jews may understand the OT prophecies so that such Jews could decide if those have relevance in their own understanding of their people and history. If Jews are not interested in what the scriptures had revealed of the Israel people, that is their own decision.

 

[Selah]

Mike, are you a preterist?

 

[mikesw]

Mike, are you a preterist?

Indeed. I think certain things in scripture are fulfilled. Maybe you can list some things you think have happened in accord with scripture.
A question to you. Is careful scriptural analysis a worthwhile endeavor?

 

[Selah]

Indeed. I think certain things in scripture are fulfilled. Maybe you can list some things you think have happened in accord with scripture.
A question to you. Is careful scriptural analysis a worthwhile endeavor?

Mike, there are many, many prophecies which have been fullfilled. Do you actually want me to make a list of some of them?

Scripture analysis? You mean studying and reading with understanding? Asking God to make things that are hard to understand clear? Yes, these things are indeed worthwhile—a blessing, not an endeavor.