Kirk Cameron and annihilationism
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FreeInChrist
Active Member
Then your not believing that nothing was physical before creation does not make sense.
I am on the cusp of belief for young v old... but that is for another thread. I believe that the first 24 hour period where
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
And that it could have been a week, month or even eon before the 2nd 24 hour period. and during that time he was getting things all lined up to make that second say call.
But whatever the length of time you said above " I said until creation of this universe there was nothing physical."
And that is simply not true because God was physical.. the Spirit was physical ,,,, especially hovering ove the waters
and the Word was physical.... Were they down here playing marbles? NO but They were active and active to me is physical whether a linebacker on a football team or Tinkerbell in Peter Pan.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I don't know all of it. We can agree on this fact. I do see evidence that exists that establishes the context of material existence in "heavenly things".
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
John is an extradionary man. I believe John loved Jesus Christ more than any of the apostles. That loves shows forth in his writings. In this context, John's words above is a generic reference to our future existence where other apostles (Paul for example) knew more than John knew.
For example, Paul talked about being "caught up into the third heaven" and saw things "unlawful" to speak of in full context of what was there.
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Yes. There will be many "things" that will be much different than what we experience now. However, there will also exist familiarities to our current existence that can not be denied given what we know about Scripture, Nature and the facts of Reason.
Furthermore in the context of John the Beloved words above, I believe John is speaking about the revelation of sons. Not only the context of their future glory, but about the surprise associated with just who those sons turn out to be relative to their previous solely natural existence. Many people are going to be surprised. Which makes the point of our natural existence being relative to heavenly things.
Let me know where you think I'm wrong. I appreciate the fact you're interacting here in a meaningful way.
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praise_yeshua
Active Member
Bleeding to death doesn't require the removal of all blood in the body. Only a small portion of blood needs to be removed to experience "bleeding to death".
It only takes about 50 percent of blood volume loss to guarantee death. Some say it is closer to 40 percent.
I believe the events of the Cross show that Christ expelled all His blood. So we have the scenario where Christ survived on the cross for at least 50 percent more "blood loss" than the average human could experience themselves.
Sometimes I wonder if you see anything more than just a "man" in Jesus Christ.
Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and blood and water flowed out immediately.
The fact that "water" come after the blood is indication of total blood volume being expelled from the body.
I also mentioned that Christ body didn't decay for "three days". What does that tell you about the body that Christ possessed?
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praise_yeshua
Active Member
Interesting fact. Mormons generally teach that Adam and Eve did not have blood before "the fall". Some mormons will argue that it is late "prophet" that taught this.
civic
Active Member
no you cannot find the trinity in the bible, good luck.
funny how you deny all the evidence for the Resurrection yet somehow can see the "trinity" in the bible when its not mentioned.
provide one scripture that affirms you claims " the three ( father, son, spirit) are one god.
c'mon this should be easy for you since you claim to believe it right.
The spirit is not physical. If the spirit were physical, then a doctor could identify the spirit in man. Physical is made up of subatomic particles, atoms, molecules, chemicals and subject to the natural law. God is not physical. God is Spirit.
To shed blood does not mean he was emptied of blood. I think it means only that He died in a blood shedding way. Crucifixion doesn't kill by bleeding to death.
We will be like Jesus. Whatever that is, John says it has never been seen. John saw Jesus following His death, burial and resurrection. So whatever we will be is not anything like Jesus in His resurrection. We will be raised to a spiritual body, That body will not look anything like our physical body.
At the time the soldier pierced His side with a spear, He had already died. If He hadn't been already dead, they would have broken his legs as they did the other two who were crucified with Him. In crucifixion, death did not occur by loss of blood. In some crucifixions, they were not even subjected to any blood letting at all. Most died of suffocation, exposure, and some loss of blood, some taking days to die depending on the manner of attachment to the crucifix.
The word "trinity" is not in the bible. There is not a verse that says "God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit". But the fact of the trinity clearly is there. If you can't find it, you are not looking. But I am not too surprised to find out that you don't believe in the concept of the trinity.
The Father is God:
John 6:27 Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal."
The Son is God:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
The Holy Spirit is God:
Act 5:3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?
Act 5:4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
civic
Active Member
1- no your claim is the bible says the trinity- the above never mentions the trinity
2- no your other claim is the bible says the father, son, spirit are one God. The 3 are 1.
you have failed with your claims. your argument/apologetic has failed in the same way your resurrection argument failed.
You don't read very well - either what I said or what the bible says.
civic
Active Member
I know what the bible does and does not say and I read your response. I stand by what I said and you are projecting again. You made the false claims not me and I held you to them to prove it which you failed. You cannot make a defense of your claims from the bible, only "assume" it says what your assert. Back to the drawing board.
And just a heads up.
The Father never says: " I Am God " anywhere in the bible and neither does the Son.
You argue your beliefs just like the JW's by eisegesis. I always stump them too with their false claims. Since they deny the deity of Christ and claim the Son never says I Am God. I tell them the same thing: the Father never says I am God either.
next fallacy.
I am sorry to hear that you do not hold to a belief in the trinity.
I never claimed that the Father says, "I am God".
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Not true. Read it again.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
"it doesn't yet appear". That doesn't men that is has never been seen. You're conflating thoughts.
Not true.
Same guy.... John, Same person, Jesus Christ.
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
We know differently. I can review the same information you have and see that what you're claim isn't accurate to the facts of the words recorded.
Not true. Just extrapolated traditions
Even the foundations of the Holy City will have the names (as they are known) of the apostles on them.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
The 24 elders will be known as they are known.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
There is much more, but you should accept these simple facts.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Sure. However, that doesn't change anything I said. The only thing left in his circulatory system was in the heart. You know the "thing" that does all the work to circulate the blood. That pump creates a vacuum. You should know how pumps and vacuums work.
NATURE.....
When the soldier pierced his side, It went straight to his heart through his lungs. The "gushing out" is an indication of the release of the pressure the vacuum created.
All of it.
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