Kirk Cameron and annihilationism

[Jim]

I suggest these new modern translations are wrong since I provided almost 30 translations that have the son of man who is in heaven.

But those are almost all using Textus Receptus as the Greek version. It is not always right.

 

[civic]

But those are almost all using Textus Receptus as the Greek version. It is not always right.

nothing is always 100% right except the original manuscripts which no one has.

 

[Jim]

definition of fallacy : a mistaken belief, especially one based on unsound argument. a failure in reasoning which renders an argument invalid. faulty reasoning; misleading or unsound argument.

it has nothing to do with ego but the fact you are lacking a biblical, historical, orthodox view on essential/core doctrines of the historic church dating back to the time of the Apostles and their disciples the dating back to the 1st/2nd century ECF's.

More on fallacies below. A good article I will link containing over 200 of them.

Fallacies​

A fallacy is a kind of error in reasoning. The list of fallacies below contains 231 names of the most common fallacies, and it provides brief explanations and examples of each of them. Fallacious reasoning should not be persuasive, but it too often is.

The vast majority of the commonly identified fallacies involve arguments, although some involve only explanations, or definitions, or questions, or other products of reasoning. Some researchers, although not most, use the term “fallacy” very broadly to indicate any false belief or cause of a false belief. The long list below includes some fallacies of these sorts if they have commonly-known names, but most are fallacies that involve kinds of errors made while arguing informally in natural language, that is, in everyday discourse. https://iep.utm.edu/fallacy/

hope this helps !!!

It is not the fallacy, specifically, that I was alluding to. It was the condescending attitude that I see in so much of your posts to me and some others.

 

[Jim]

nothing is always 100% right except the original manuscripts which no one has.

I agree. And truth is not always that which is the most common.

 

[civic]

It is not the fallacy, specifically, that I was alluding to. It was the condescending attitude that I see in so much of your posts to me and some others.

for example its a fallacy to say since Jesus is a man therefore He cannot be God.

another fallacy is to claim spiritual body is incorpereal.

another fallacy is to claim the son of man in not human.

another fallacy is to claim God is not a Trinity.

So when I see these types of fallacious claims I call them out, the same with fallacious questions.

And its not condescending, its just the hard truth.

 

[Jim]

for example its a fallacy to say since Jesus is a man therefore He cannot be God.

another fallacy is to claim spiritual body is incorpereal.

another fallacy is to claim the son of man in not human.

another fallacy is to claim God is not a Trinity.

So when I see these types of fallacious claims I call them out, the same with fallacious questions.

And its not condescending, its just the hard truth.

And of course you are the authoritative judge of what constitutes hard truth. What arrogance. That is but more condescending thinking on your part. What you believe does not constitute truth. What you believe may agree or coincide with truth, but your believing something does not make it so.

 

[civic]

And of course you are the authoritative judge of what constitutes hard truth. What arrogance. That is but more condescending thinking on your part. What you believe does not constitute truth. What you believe may agree or coincide with truth, but your believing something does not make it so.

I know the doctrines the church has held since its inception, the foundational doctrines which include the Trinity, Deity of Christ, The Resurrection( the centerpiece of the gospel) I'm very well versed in my Theological studies on those doctrines. What you call arrogance I call biblical truth.

 

[FreeInChrist]

And of course you are the authoritative judge of what constitutes hard truth. What arrogance. That is but more condescending thinking on your part. What you believe does not constitute truth. What you believe may agree or coincide with truth, but your believing something does not make it so.

Well Jim.... please tell me which translation you follow and if you say KJV I will not bother you again for it is full of holes and and things that mislead even using the word think in reference to Jesus in Luke 1.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That should tell you that Jesus who is in heaven now is not still in his earthly human body. Nothing material or corporal can be omnipresent.

Logically, you're drawing a distinction that doesn't exist.

Think of "In Him we live move and have our being"........

We references such things in secular "speak" as the "fabric of the universe". There are many many things that we don't understand about such a construct.

What we can do is believe what God said to be true. Nobody has gotten past such "paradoxes" in understanding. I see the fabric of all things tangible in the very tangible attributes of Divinity. You're resisting....

There is a tangible "fabric" to even thought. I think you realize this is certainly possible. You're just resisting as if this can't possible be an answer.

 

[praise_yeshua]

But Jesus is God and while on earth He had a corporal, physical human body.

The miracles that Jesus performed like turning water into wine, healing the lame, raising the dead, etc. He did by the power of the Holy Spirit, same as any other human being that performed miracles.

Just another instance that we have all experienced of being told something that was incorrect. We weren't being lied to; it is just that the one telling us was wrong.

If you looked at and heard someone that you had just witnessed be killed and be buried three days earlier, I suspect that you would not let yourself think that you were actually seeing them.

Just like Thomas, who would not be convinced that Jesus was alive, it would take more than simply seeing someone who looked exactly like the one who died. In Thomas' case it took the nail holes in Jesus' hands and the spear puncture in Jesus' side to convince him that Jesus had indeed risen from the grave. In Mary's case it took the sound of Jesus' voice to convince her.

No they did not watch Him rise into heaven. They only saw Him disappear into a cloud.

I agree with most of that. However, given that Jesus did not have a human body, or any physical body before coming to earth, I am convinced that when he returned again to heaven, He returned to the same glorious "body" that He had before. We cannot know for sure what that really was. But we can be sure that it is nothing like exists in any solid, corporal, physical, earthly state. The is no indication that anything physical exists outside of this physical universe.

1 Cor 15:35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 Fool! What you sow will not come to life unless it dies.37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare seed – perhaps of wheat or something else.

Even today's science says that this physical universe is limited in size and there is nothing to indicate that there is anything physical beyond this universe.

There are those who believe that the "new heavens and new earth" will be God's correction of what happened, i.e., the fall, when Adam sinned and was ejected from the Garden of Eden. I believe that all of what is described has happened to the universe as a result of "the fall" is pure nonsense. God's plan was not interrupted or altered in any way by what Adam did. God's plan was not changed in any way by what Adam did. Adam's sin, while not caused by God, was part and parcel to God's plan. God's plan worked and is working now precisely as He intended at the outset.

There is a reason for and a purpose to why God created this world as He did with all the sin that mankind commits. The sin of Adam, and the sins of all the rest of mankind, is integral with and is absolutely necessary to that reason and that purpose. I believe that is to establish a kingdom of beings who knowingly and willingly love God. I believe that is God's ultimate purpose.

(ESV) Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

The life in this physical body in this physical universe is a test, a test of who will of their own freewill will love God, in spite of all the forces aligned against that.

The faithfulness of the High Priest work depends upon a tangible change of experience in the Son of God. Jesus Christ.

Such is much more than just a memory of an experience that HE would rather forget.

This "thought" is relative to the following words of the writer of Hebrews....

Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

He is alive right this minute tangibly in a body that meaningfully reflects His on going experience.

Now there is certain things we can't know. I don't know if that will change in the future. There is an argument to be made of Christ no longer needing to maintain that experience once His work among humanity is over.

Either way, I don't believe this has anything to do with the Essence, Character, or Substance that experienced change relative to Divine attributes. Sin creates change. Our sin demanded a substantive change in the bodily form of Jesus Christ that even now is required.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It is not the fallacy, specifically, that I was alluding to. It was the condescending attitude that I see in so much of your posts to me and some others.

I'm worse than @civic has ever been in this. I think "condescending attitudes" are often required to get a point across. You shouldn't rely on such things to win an argument. It is meaningless in the overall scope of information/knowledge.

 

[Jim]

Well Jim.... please tell me which translation you follow and if you say KJV I will not bother you again for it is full of holes and and things that mislead even using the word think in reference to Jesus in Luke 1.

Most of the time I use the ESV when I am quoting the bible. In my studies I begin with the ESV, using other versions, including the KJV when it looks like there might by some real differences of translations and meaning in a given passage. I use e-Sword as my usual study bible. It has a "Compare" option comparing all 15 versions that I have up. I use the NASB quite a bit especially in comparing the KJV+ and the NASB+ which are versions displaying the Strong's Hebrew and Greek dictionary numbers.

 

[Jim]

I know the doctrines the church has held since its inception, the foundational doctrines which include the Trinity, Deity of Christ, The Resurrection( the centerpiece of the gospel) I'm very well versed in my Theological studies on those doctrines. What you call arrogance I call biblical truth.

The "hard truth" of the "doctrines the church has held since its inception, the foundational doctrines which include the Trinity, Deity of Christ, The Resurrection (the centerpiece of the gospel)" are of little interest to me. That is interesting in an historical sense, but not necessarily in a knowing what the bible says and means. I have, for example, known and liked a couple of Roman Catholic Priests personally, who considered themselves also well versed in their Theological doctrines on those foundational doctrines. And I consider them incorrect in much of it. You can consider them to be hard truths if you like, but I will stick with my own more modern sources in my search for the truth.

 

[Jim]

Logically, you're drawing a distinction that doesn't exist.

Logically, you are extrapolating the definition of omniscience beyond any useful meaning.

Think of "In Him we live move and have our being"........

We references such things in secular "speak" as the "fabric of the universe". There are many many things that we don't understand about such a construct.

What we can do is believe what God said to be true. Nobody has gotten past such "paradoxes" in understanding. I see the fabric of all things tangible in the very tangible attributes of Divinity. You're resisting....

There is a tangible "fabric" to even thought. I think you realize this is certainly possible. You're just resisting as if this can't possible be an answer.

I am not certain of the point you are trying to make in all of that.

 

[Jim]

The faithfulness of the High Priest work depends upon a tangible change of experience in the Son of God. Jesus Christ.

Such is much more than just a memory of an experience that HE would rather forget.

This "thought" is relative to the following words of the writer of Hebrews....

Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

He is alive right this minute tangibly in a body that meaningfully reflects His on going experience.

Now there is certain things we can't know. I don't know if that will change in the future. There is an argument to be made of Christ no longer needing to maintain that experience once His work among humanity is over.

Either way, I don't believe this has anything to do with the Essence, Character, or Substance that experienced change relative to Divine attributes. Sin creates change. Our sin demanded a substantive change in the bodily form of Jesus Christ that even now is required.

I can understand and believe the human form of Jesus was necessary to carry out the perfect sacrifice once for all for the sins of the world. No such human form of Jesus is necessary for any further activities in His work of redemption and judgment.

 

[Jim]

I'm worse than @civic has ever been in this. I think "condescending attitudes" are often required to get a point across. You shouldn't rely on such things to win an argument. It is meaningless in the overall scope of information/knowledge.

Again, I am not certain the point you are making. You think "condescending attitudes" are often required but we shouldn't rely on them, i.e., use such tactics too often? Personally, I don't think that is ever required. In fact, I tend to reject out of hand anyone's argument using that tactic. I suspect that most others do as well.

 

[Jim]

I'm worse than @civic has ever been in this. I think "condescending attitudes" are often required to get a point across. You shouldn't rely on such things to win an argument. It is meaningless in the overall scope of information/know

Let's face it, any time someone uses a "condescending attitude" to get their point across, then the real point is the condescension and not information or teaching.

 

[civic]

Let's face it, any time someone uses a "condescending attitude" to get their point across, then the real point is the condescension and not information or teaching.

Lets face it the bible tells believers to contend for the faith, to have sound doctrine and defend it.

Jude explains, “I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people” (Jude 1:3).

Jude is concerned because “the faith”—the Christian message of the gospel—is under attack from false teachers who are spreading dangerous heresies. Jude urges his readers to contend for the faith against those who seek to undermine and erode it. The Greek word Jude chooses, translated “contend earnestly,” usually describes an athlete striving with extreme intensity to win the victory in a physical competition. The Amplified Bible translates the command as “fight strenuously for [the defense of] the faith.”

Jude wants all believers to contend earnestly for the faith. A true contender vigorously endeavors to win the competition, not holding anything back. In this case, the struggle is for “the faith,” which is the saving truth of Jesus Christ and His teachings (2 Corinthians 11:3–4; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; Hebrews 1:2).

Since this faith was “entrusted to God’s holy people,” all believers, not just Christian leaders, are called to defend the truth of Jesus Christ. And since this faith was entrusted “once for all,” Jude intends to stand against those who claim to receive “new” revelations of truth. Through Christ’s personal teachings and the work of the Holy Spirit, Jesus has already given the full message of truth to the apostles (John 14:26; 16:12–13). Paul gives a similar warning not to let anyone pervert the gospel of Christ with new and different teachings (Galatians 1:6–9). God has spoken, and any new, continuing, or special revelations of “truth” are to be rejected.got?

Several verses in the New Testament reinforce Jude’s call to contend for the faith. Paul charges Timothy to “fight the good fight of faith” as a soldier of God in pursuit of holy living, persistent service, and defending the gospel (1 Timothy 6:11–21). To the church in Corinth, Paul advises believers to see themselves as runners in a race who “run in such a way as to get the prize” (1 Corinthians 9:24–27). To the Philippian church, Paul writes, “Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in the one Spirit, striving together as one for the faith of the gospel” (Philippians 1:27). Fight, run, and strive—in other words, “contend earnestly” for the faith.

In a practical sense, what does it mean to contend for the faith? What does contending for the faith look like? Fortunately, the book of Jude sets out several disciplines showing us how to contend for the faith:

1. Build yourself up in the faith (Jude 1:20). We are to keep pressing ourselves to grow spiritually. A big part of spiritual development involves reading and studying God’s Word so that we know and understand it. “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15). The inspired Word of God has the power to teach, train, rebuke, and correct us in righteousness so that as God’s servants we are wholly equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:16–17).

2. Pray in the Holy Spirit (Jude 1:20). By praying under the direction of the Holy Spirit, we receive help in our human weakness to understand God’s truth and not be deceived by false teachers (Romans 8:26).

3. Keep yourself in God’s love (Jude 1:21). Staying in God’s love means living by faith and obedience to God. Jesus told us, “If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love” (John 15:10). We obey God because He has captivated our hearts and won our allegiance (Romans 6:17). The ultimate expression of our obedience to God is shown through our loving others (1 John 3:11–24; 1 Peter 1:22).

4. Wait with hope (Jude 1:21). To contend for the faith, we must keep the fire of hope alive in our hearts. When Jude says to wait “expectantly for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life,” he is referring to living every moment of life with the confident expectation that Jesus Christ may return at any moment (Titus 2:13).

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

I'm contending as commanded by Gods word for the faith- this includes who God is as Triune - The One God who is Father, Son, Holy Spirit), Deity and humanity of Christ which is the permanent joining of the 2 natures as both God and man known as the Incarnation and the Resurrection which is the foundation stone of the gospel. These are non negotiable doctrines.

I will always contend against false gods, false christs and false gospels and those who believe in them.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Jim]

Lets face it the bible tells believers to contend for the faith, to have sound doctrine and defend it.

Jude explains, “I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people” (Jude 1:3).

Jude is concerned because “the faith”—the Christian message of the gospel—is under attack from false teachers who are spreading dangerous heresies. Jude urges his readers to contend for the faith against those who seek to undermine and erode it. The Greek word Jude chooses, translated “contend earnestly,” usually describes an athlete striving with extreme intensity to win the victory in a physical competition. The Amplified Bible translates the command as “fight strenuously for [the defense of] the faith.”

Jude wants all believers to contend earnestly for the faith. A true contender vigorously endeavors to win the competition, not holding anything back. In this case, the struggle is for “the faith,” which is the saving truth of Jesus Christ and His teachings (2 Corinthians 11:3–4; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; Hebrews 1:2).

Since this faith was “entrusted to God’s holy people,” all believers, not just Christian leaders, are called to defend the truth of Jesus Christ. And since this faith was entrusted “once for all,” Jude intends to stand against those who claim to receive “new” revelations of truth. Through Christ’s personal teachings and the work of the Holy Spirit, Jesus has already given the full message of truth to the apostles (John 14:26; 16:12–13). Paul gives a similar warning not to let anyone pervert the gospel of Christ with new and different teachings (Galatians 1:6–9). God has spoken, and any new, continuing, or special revelations of “truth” are to be rejected.got?

Several verses in the New Testament reinforce Jude’s call to contend for the faith. Paul charges Timothy to “fight the good fight of faith” as a soldier of God in pursuit of holy living, persistent service, and defending the gospel (1 Timothy 6:11–21). To the church in Corinth, Paul advises believers to see themselves as runners in a race who “run in such a way as to get the prize” (1 Corinthians 9:24–27). To the Philippian church, Paul writes, “Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in the one Spirit, striving together as one for the faith of the gospel” (Philippians 1:27). Fight, run, and strive—in other words, “contend earnestly” for the faith.

In a practical sense, what does it mean to contend for the faith? What does contending for the faith look like? Fortunately, the book of Jude sets out several disciplines showing us how to contend for the faith:

1. Build yourself up in the faith (Jude 1:20). We are to keep pressing ourselves to grow spiritually. A big part of spiritual development involves reading and studying God’s Word so that we know and understand it. “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15). The inspired Word of God has the power to teach, train, rebuke, and correct us in righteousness so that as God’s servants we are wholly equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:16–17).

2. Pray in the Holy Spirit (Jude 1:20). By praying under the direction of the Holy Spirit, we receive help in our human weakness to understand God’s truth and not be deceived by false teachers (Romans 8:26).

3. Keep yourself in God’s love (Jude 1:21). Staying in God’s love means living by faith and obedience to God. Jesus told us, “If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love” (John 15:10). We obey God because He has captivated our hearts and won our allegiance (Romans 6:17). The ultimate expression of our obedience to God is shown through our loving others (1 John 3:11–24; 1 Peter 1:22).

4. Wait with hope (Jude 1:21). To contend for the faith, we must keep the fire of hope alive in our hearts. When Jude says to wait “expectantly for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life,” he is referring to living every moment of life with the confident expectation that Jesus Christ may return at any moment (Titus 2:13).

hope this helps !!!

Anyone who really thinks that is any basis for condescendence has little understanding of what it means to contend for the faith.