Kirk Cameron and annihilationism

[civic]

" Kirk Cameron's recent controversies center on his questioning of traditional Christian hell doctrine (leaning towards annihilationism, where the wicked cease to exist rather than suffer eternally) "

" A number of commentators have responded, such as Southern Baptist Seminary President Al Mohler, in an essay for the WORLD News Group. Dr. Mohler believes that Kirk Cameron’s move towards the doctrine of conditional immortality is a slippery slope towards other areas of compromise in Christian doctrine, whereby Cameron has allowed emotional concerns to overwhelm a commitment to historic Christian orthodoxy. "


Annihilationism is the belief that unbelievers will not experience an eternity of suffering in hell but will instead be “extinguished” or annihilated after death. Annihilationism is an attractive belief to many because of the awfulness of the idea of people spending eternity in hell. While there are some passages that seem to support annihilationism, a comprehensive look at what the Bible says about the destiny of the wicked reveals that punishment in hell is eternal. A belief in annihilationism results from a misunderstanding of the consequences of sin, the justice of God, and/or the nature of hell.

In relation to the nature of hell, annihilationists misunderstand the meaning of the lake of fire. Obviously, if a human being were cast into a lake of burning lava, he or she would be almost instantly consumed; however, the lake of fire is both a physical and spiritual realm. The punishment is not simply of a human body; it is of a human’s body, soul, and spirit. A spiritual nature cannot be consumed by physical fire. It seems that the unsaved are resurrected with a body fit for eternity just as the saved are (Revelation 20:13; Acts 24:15). These bodies are prepared for an eternal fate.

Eternity is another point of contention. Annihilationists are correct that the Greek word aionion, which is usually translated “eternal,” does not by definition mean “eternal.” It refers to an “age” or “eon,” a specific period of time. In some passages, however, aionion is without question used to refer to an eternity. Revelation 20:10 speaks of Satan, the beast, and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire and being “tormented day and night forever and ever.” These three are not “extinguished” by being cast into the lake of fire, but their torment goes on forever. Why would the fate of the unsaved, who are also thrown into the lake of fire, be any different (Revelation 20:14–15)?

One evidence for the eternality of hell is Matthew 25:46: “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” In this verse, the same Greek word is used to refer to the destiny of the wicked and the righteous. If the wicked are only tormented for an “age,” then the righteous will only experience life in heaven for an “age.” If believers will be in heaven forever, unbelievers will be in hell forever.

Another frequent objection raised by annihilationists to the eternality of hell is that it would be unjust for God to punish people eternally for a finite amount of sin. How could it be fair for God to take a person who lived 70 years in sin, and punish him or her for all eternity? The answer is that our sin bears an infinite consequence because it is committed against an infinitely holy God. When King David committed the sins of adultery and murder, he prayed, “Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight” (Psalm 51:4). God is an eternal and infinitely glorious being. Our sin, an affront to infinite worth and eternal glory, warrants an infinite and eternal punishment. The consequence is proportional to the value of the thing targeted. What matters is not the length of time we sinned, but the value of the character of the God we sinned against.

More personally, annihilationism puts forward the idea that we could not possibly be happy in heaven if we knew that some of our loved ones were suffering an eternity of torment in hell. Scripture says, however, that we will not have anything to complain about or be saddened by in the eternal state. God will “‘will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away” (Revelation 21:4). If some of our loved ones are not in heaven, we will be in complete agreement that they do not belong there and that they are condemned by their own refusal to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior (see John 3:18; 14:6). It is hard to understand this, but we will not be saddened by the lack of their presence. Our focus now should not be on how we can enjoy heaven without our loved ones but on how we can point our loved ones to faith in Christ so they will be with us.

Hell is perhaps a primary reason why God sent Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for our sins. Being “extinguished” after death is no fate to dread, but an eternity in hell is. Jesus’ death paid our infinite sin debt so we would not have to pay it in hell for eternity (2 Corinthians 5:21). When we place our faith in Him, we are saved, forgiven, cleansed, and promised an eternal home in heaven. But if we reject God’s gift of eternal life, we will face the eternal consequences of that decision.got?

lets discuss

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

I was on another forum reading all the calvinist there supporting the heresy of annihilationism. The funny thing was when Sproul, White and Mac were quoted calling it heretical then the cry of appealing to authority was invoked.

I mean what are the chances these 3 staunch calvinists all got it wrong ? And the armchair theologians in an online forum got it right ?

R.C. Sproul was a
staunch opponent of the annihilation doctrine, which he considered an erroneous view with no scriptural basis. He firmly held the traditional Christian position that hell is a place of conscious, unending, and eternal punishment.

Dr. James White's opinion
is firmly against the annihilationist doctrine, holding to the traditional view of eternal conscious torment (ECT) for the unsaved, seeing annihilationism as a softening of God's justice and a departure from biblical truth, though he acknowledges it's a secondary theological issue debated even within Reformed circles. He argues the Bible depicts hell as perpetual suffering, not a final cessation of existence, and emphasizes that the infinite atonement of Christ necessitates eternal punishment for sin

John MacArthur
strongly rejected annihilationism (the belief that the unsaved are completely destroyed/extinguished in hell), viewing it as a denial of Scripture that redefines "eternal" punishment; he championed the traditional doctrine of eternal conscious torment ( ECT) for the damned, arguing that the same Greek word (aionios) used for the eternal life of believers also describes the punishment of the wicked, meaning one cannot be eternal without the other, and that hell is a real, everlasting place of suffering, not extinction, citing passages like Matthew 25:46

 

[civic]

and they are denying their own confessions

The Westminster Confession of Faith (WCF)
The WCF, formulated in the 17th century, represents the orthodox Reformed position that explicitly refutes the core tenets of annihilationism. Its key sections on the afterlife state:

• WCF Chapter 32.1 affirms that the souls of the wicked, which "neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence," are immediately "cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day". This directly contradicts the idea of "soul sleep" or the cessation of existence after death.
• WCF Chapter 33.2 declares the final destiny of the wicked: they "shall be cast into eternal torments, and be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power". This emphasizes the conscious and perpetual nature of the punishment

The 1689 Westminster Confession of Faith (WCF), more commonly known as the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith (LBCF), explicitly rejects annihilationism in favor of the doctrine of eternal conscious punishment for the wicked.

The Confession's Stance
The 1689 LBCF is a foundational document for Reformed Baptists and closely aligns with the original 1646 WCF, differing primarily on the subjects of baptism and church government. Both confessions uphold the historic Christian belief in an eternal hell.
The relevant section in the WCF (Chapter XXXII, Section I) and the parallel section in the LBCF (Chapter XXXII, Section I) describe the state of souls after death:
The confession states that after death, the bodies of men return to dust, but their souls, which have an "immortal subsistence," immediately return to God. The souls of the righteous go to heaven, while the souls of the wicked are "cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day".
This passage from the confession opposes annihilationism by affirming that souls are immortal and do not die or sleep. It also indicates that the wicked experience conscious suffering ("torments and utter darkness") in hell. This state is described as temporary until the final judgment, after which they will face eternal punishment.
Annihilationism, in contrast, is the belief that the wicked are ultimately destroyed and cease to exist rather than enduring eternal conscious torment. The 1689 LBCF sees annihilationism as inconsistent with the biblical understanding of hell. While some individuals who identify as Reformed Baptist today may hold annihilationist views, this position is not consistent with the historic stance of the 1689 LBCF. You can find the full text of Chapter XXXII, Section I of the 1689 LBCF in the referenced document

 

[atpollard]

lets discuss

Sure,
In no particular order:

1. Annihilationism appeals to human emotions ... we want a God more like a "Santa" (a cuddly, loving "grandpa") than a holy creator with a "zero-tolerance policy" for sin (and a sword sticking out of His mouth or an iron scepter to dash evil like shards of pottery). Too bad there are those SCRIPTURES that really seem to say "eternal suffering" that theologians need to carefully redefine.

• at the risk of starting a fight that belongs somewhere else, Anihilationism shares many traits with "free will" ... both seek to create a "kinder and gentler GOD".

2. "The funny thing was when Sproul, White and Mac were quoted calling it heretical then the cry of appealing to authority was invoked." ... Technically, if it is "heretical" BECAUSE "Sproul, White and Mac" say so, then it is an "appeal to authority". If Sproul, White and Mac are quoted explaining how SCRIPTURE proves "annihilationism" is false, then it is an appeal to "Sola Scriptura".

3. I think it very poor taste to attack the beliefs of Kirk Cameron in out of context sound-bytes as if we (Christians) we no different than any other "click-bait" worldly blogger or "headline grabbing" sensationalist journalist [What does Elvis' ghost say about it?]

• "So, let me be very clear. I believe in Hell. I believe in judgment. I have not denied the authority of Scripture," he declared, describing the debate as an "honest theological question" debated by Christians for centuries regarding the final fate of the unrepentant.
  Cameron explained what he believes are some common misconceptions about conditionalism. "Many assume it teaches that when a sinner dies they just, poof, disappear …” he said. “That is not what it teaches, and that's not what my son James and I said."
  
  Instead, he said, conditionalism affirms human mortality, that eternal life is a gift for the redeemed, real judgment, and conscious suffering, but questions whether that torment is endless or culminates in final destruction or the "second death."
  
  "The only difference is, does that conscious torment last forever and ever and ever, or does it eventually come to an end and the person is annihilated?" Cameron stated.
  
  He expressed deep respect for traditionalists he admires, including St. Augustine, Charles Spurgeon, George Whitefield, John Wesley, R.C. Sproul, and his mentor John MacArthur, while noting historical figures like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Athanasius, Martin Luther, John Stott, F.F. Bruce, and Edward Fudge who held or leaned toward conditionalist views. - Kirk Cameron (interview)

 

[civic]

Sure,
In no particular order:

1. Annihilationism appeals to human emotions ... we want a God more like a "Santa" (a cuddly, loving "grandpa") than a holy creator with a "zero-tolerance policy" for sin (and a sword sticking out of His mouth or an iron scepter to dash evil like shards of pottery). Too bad there are those SCRIPTURES that really seem to say "eternal suffering" that theologians need to carefully redefine.

• at the risk of starting a fight that belongs somewhere else, Anihilationism shares many traits with "free will" ... both seek to create a "kinder and gentler GOD".

2. "The funny thing was when Sproul, White and Mac were quoted calling it heretical then the cry of appealing to authority was invoked." ... Technically, if it is "heretical" BECAUSE "Sproul, White and Mac" say so, then it is an "appeal to authority". If Sproul, White and Mac are quoted explaining how SCRIPTURE proves "annihilationism" is false, then it is an appeal to "Sola Scriptura".

3. I think it very poor taste to attack the beliefs of Kirk Cameron in out of context sound-bytes as if we (Christians) we no different than any other "click-bait" worldly blogger or "headline grabbing" sensationalist journalist [What does Elvis' ghost say about it?]

• "So, let me be very clear. I believe in Hell. I believe in judgment. I have not denied the authority of Scripture," he declared, describing the debate as an "honest theological question" debated by Christians for centuries regarding the final fate of the unrepentant.
  Cameron explained what he believes are some common misconceptions about conditionalism. "Many assume it teaches that when a sinner dies they just, poof, disappear …” he said. “That is not what it teaches, and that's not what my son James and I said."
  
  Instead, he said, conditionalism affirms human mortality, that eternal life is a gift for the redeemed, real judgment, and conscious suffering, but questions whether that torment is endless or culminates in final destruction or the "second death."
  
  "The only difference is, does that conscious torment last forever and ever and ever, or does it eventually come to an end and the person is annihilated?" Cameron stated.
  
  He expressed deep respect for traditionalists he admires, including St. Augustine, Charles Spurgeon, George Whitefield, John Wesley, R.C. Sproul, and his mentor John MacArthur, while noting historical figures like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Athanasius, Martin Luther, John Stott, F.F. Bruce, and Edward Fudge who held or leaned toward conditionalist views. - Kirk Cameron (interview)

You left out the 2 major reformed confessions :") that reject conditionalism.

And if they got it wrong too like Mac, White and RC what else did those reformers get wrong..

just sayin........

 

[atpollard]

You left out the 2 major reformed confessions :") that reject conditionalism.

And if they got it wrong too like Mac, White and RC what else did those reformers get wrong..

just sayin........

"The nature of Hell a 'secondary issue,' not mentioned in core creeds like the Apostles' Creed or Nicene Creed, and recited the Apostles' Creed in full to underscore essential Christian unity."

Just sayin .....

 

[atpollard]

PS. I may not like "predestination" or "ECT", but God has yet to seek my approval for anything ... and I am OK with that. Only one of us is GOD (and it is not me), so ... His creation: His rules. (I can live with that).

 

[civic]

"The nature of Hell a 'secondary issue,' not mentioned in core creeds like the Apostles' Creed or Nicene Creed, and recited the Apostles' Creed in full to underscore essential Christian unity."

Just sayin .....

I don't think any creed outside of the bibles has got anything 100% correct. They are all fallible imho.

 

[TedT]

How a hell could exist in a reality created by a GOD who is Love...

IF we were created as eternal, ie, as eternally aware of ourselves and other self assessing spirits and
IF we were created with a free will and
IF we were able to choose by our free will to be eternally evil people by sinning the unforgivable sin and
IF some few people did so choose that which would make them eternally evil after all due warnings were given, then...
THEN GOD would be forced by their own free will choices to banish these eternally evil people from the reality of HIS holy heavenly people to keep them free from the leaven of hate and evil of the eternally evil banished ones.

 

[TedT]

What was the unforgivable sin that forced people into hell?

ImCo: (in my Christian opinion):
The unforgivable Sin
From my Christian pov, the unforgivable sin was the Satanic fall, their free will decision to reject by faith, ie, an unproven hope, YHWH's unproven claims to be our creator GOD and to reject the gospel of salvation from sin as found only in the Son. It contained the ideas that HE was no better than the rest of us so HE must be a liar and as a liar, a false god...just listen to atheists and pagans about their opinion of YHWH for confirmation.

As the first liar in all of creation, HE must therefore be the most evil person in existence so they repudiated HIM, rejecting HIM from having any influence in their lives at all. Putting their faith in this idea that HE was evil and driven by a psychotic megalomania made them eternally unfit to ever be HIS Bride so they were condemned to judgement on the spot, passed over for election to salvation due to their choice.

Eternally evil?
They can't be forgiven because
1. they made the decision to rebel against GOD's claims to Deity by their free will and a free will decision cannot be changed by anyone, even GOD, unless the person asks for it to be changed. All free will decisions must be sacrosanct and inviolable and apart from GOD's interference or it cannot be defined as free. This is not a rule but a matter of definitions: A cannot be not A at the same time; wet cannot be dry at the same time; free to choose an unchangeable decision can't therefore be changed by another and still be considered free.

2. Once they rebelled they became enslaved by the addictive power of evil which destroyed their ability to seek true repentance and unable to save themselves by changing their minds about HIM. They were instantly and totally unable to repent of their evil and became even more committed to the belief that they were right to rebel against this upstart liar and false god. So great is their addiction to evil that even after they learned the truth of HIS divinity and power when they saw the creation of the physical universe with their own eyes as described in Job 38:7 and Rom 1:20, they could not change their minds because they loved their sin more than the truth as we learn in Roman 1:18+.

This describes the Satanic fall that precipitated the war in heaven and had all sinners, elect (ie, those redeemable by their pre-sin, free will, decision to accept YHWH as their Lord and Saviour from sin) and the unforgivable reprobate, flung into the earth.

They are not unforgivable because HE hates them and their sin so much because it is worse than other sins but because when HE proclaimed HIS gospel of salvation to every creature created in HIS image, Colossians 1:23, for us to accept HIS claims or to reject HIM, HE promised us our choice would not be interfered with or changed or forced upon us without our consent, though there would be legal and natural consequences...warnings explained in full but which some ignored as lies.

Their choice to eternally repudiate HIS help in saving them from the grip of sin while becoming unable to save themselves by changing their minds sealed their doom.

HE lovingly gave them the right and the ability to choose their own fate.
HE was fair and righteous to allow them to choose evil by faith (an unproven hope) after warning them sincerely about the natural and legal consequences for choosing evil.
It was righteous for HIM to not interfere after they made the choice to rebuke HIM as a false god by allowing their free will choice to work out to its end.

They did not want to live with HIM in HIS heavenly marriage so much they chose to repudiate HIM even though they knew that if HE was ever proven to be their GOD, they would be doomed to hell... Iow, they chose to go to hell by their free will rather than ever having to live with HIM in HIS heaven. Alas, that is what they get...

 

[Walt]

Could it be possible that Jesus was explaining the Punishment will be Everlasting, many will be on the road that leads to destruction, and few are finding the road that leads to life?

And the eternal fire is a metaphor symbolizing complete final destruction, because the fire at Sodom and Gomorrah, is no longer on fire and Gehenna is now a place where concerts are held, in both cases the fire itself is not everlasting?

 

[atpollard]

I don't think any creed outside of the bibles has got anything 100% correct. They are all fallible imho.

The point was not whether the Creeds were 100% correct or not. The point is that the CREEDS addressed the ISSUES which the earliest Christians UNIVERSALLY considered vitally important to BEING a Christian ... HELL did not make the list of "Most Important Topics" [like "Is Jesus God and Man?" did.]

 

[atpollard]

Could it be possible that Jesus was explaining the Punishment will be Everlasting, many will be on the road that leads to destruction, and few are finding the road that leads to life?

And the eternal fire is a metaphor symbolizing complete final destruction, because the fire at Sodom and Gomorrah, is no longer on fire and Gehenna is now a place where concerts are held, in both cases the fire itself is not everlasting?

The "everlasting" fires of Sodom are the strongest biblical evidence that Torment is not Eternal.

 

[civic]

Could it be possible that Jesus was explaining the Punishment will be Everlasting, many will be on the road that leads to destruction, and few are finding the road that leads to life?

And the eternal fire is a metaphor symbolizing complete final destruction, because the fire at Sodom and Gomorrah, is no longer on fire and Gehenna is now a place where concerts are held, in both cases the fire itself is not everlasting?

The believe that the bible is very clear that there is eternal torment which never ends for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife.

See scriptures in RED below.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

Matthew 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matthew 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matthew 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


2 Peter 2:1-9
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment,while continuing their punishment.


Jude 4-7, 12-13
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.


Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Revelation 19:20-21
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fireis the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:

Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone
The smoke of their torment
The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Walt]

The "everlasting" fires of Sodom are the strongest biblical evidence that Torment is not Eternal.

I don't believe the Bible ever explains the wicked get life, but Jesus does explain some, "will not see life" John 3:36, "But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matthew 7:13-14

 

[Walt]

What would happen if we took all Jesus figurative words literally?

If Jesus' figurative words (like "pluck out your eye," "cut off your hand," or "I am the door/vine") were taken literally, it would lead to absurd, harmful, and impossible physical actions, creating chaos, self-mutilation, and nonsensical interpretations of reality, while missing the intended spiritual lessons about radical commitment, self-denial, and identifying with God, showing why context and intent (literal vs. symbolic) are crucial for understanding scripture.

Especially when Jesus clearly explains: some, "will not see life" John 3:36, "But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matthew 7:13-1

Do Jesus words at John 3:16, 36 sound like a figurative language to you?
Why would Jesus bother explaining these words in the first place, if everyone gets life, Just automatically?

 

[Walt]

This is a 4-minute video.

 

[atpollard]

OK, confession time. I am not a huge fan of the Book of Jude, but better men than me decided that it made the cut and IS SCRIPTURE, so who am I to argue. Here is the part (in context) that connects the fire of Hell to the fire of Soddom (from which people correctly point out that Sodom is not still burning) ...

Jude 1:3-13 [NASB]​

3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith that was once for all [time] handed down to the saints. 4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into indecent behavior and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. ​

5 Now I want to remind you, though you know everything once [and] for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And angels who did not keep their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling place, [these] He has kept in eternal restraints under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these [angels] indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. ​

8 Yet in the same way these people also, dreaming, defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak abusively of [angelic] majesties. 9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him an abusive judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10 But these people disparage all the things that they do not understand; and all the things that they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have given themselves up to the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. 12 These are the ones who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, [like shepherds] caring [only] for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, churning up their own shameful deeds like [dirty] foam; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of darkness has been reserved forever.​

I will leave it for YOU to interpret for yourself what Jude intended for these "certain people".

• Burning in hell forever
• Completely consumed by the fire of Hell, forever.

[Personally, I will focus on NOT FINDING OUT by pursuing the OTHER path. ]

 

[Walt]

I can't say I am right, and other people are wrong for what they believe. Because the Bible does talk about eternal torment.

The Bible also talks about God's mercy, His forgiveness, His Justice, His fairness, His love, I don't feel the punishment fits the crime when somebody like Hitler gets the same punishment as a person that does much less of a sin. More than a Zillion years of a barbecued life.

 

[civic]

What would happen if we took all Jesus figurative words literally?

If Jesus' figurative words (like "pluck out your eye," "cut off your hand," or "I am the door/vine") were taken literally, it would lead to absurd, harmful, and impossible physical actions, creating chaos, self-mutilation, and nonsensical interpretations of reality, while missing the intended spiritual lessons about radical commitment, self-denial, and identifying with God, showing why context and intent (literal vs. symbolic) are crucial for understanding scripture.

Especially when Jesus clearly explains: some, "will not see life" John 3:36, "But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matthew 7:13-1

Do Jesus words at John 3:16, 36 sound like a figurative language to you?
Why would Jesus bother explaining these words in the first place, if everyone gets life, Just automatically?

if hell is figurative then so is heaven since Jesus on many occasions talks about both at the same time.

eternal in one place cannot mean temporary while in the other in the same context mean forever in the other.