Jesus broke the law of Moses

[praise_yeshua]

I know this isn't going to be popular but "hear me out" for a moment. I remember as a young Christian trying to defend some of the actions of Christ that were contrary to what the Pharisees claimed were blaspheme. They often claimed that Christ broke the "law of Moses". Which He did. However, Christ was never bound by the law of Moses. Never.

This in no way is an attempt to show Christ sinful. He is ABOVE sin. Impeccable and perfect. However, He did not become the perfect sacrifice for sin because He keep the law of Moses. He TOOK the penalty of the law and was judged for our sins. The approval of the Sacrificial offering of Jesus Christ was solely at the discretion of God the Father. It is the nature of Divinity with Christ Jesus that meet the requirement of God. Literally God Incarnate dying for mankind. Not an adherence to the law of Moses.

Furthermore, it has NEVER been a requirement for the "Lawgiver" to adhere to the law that He gives to those subject to Him. The LawGiver has right sand privileges not afforded to the subject of any law.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine;

John 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine:

( what a wonderful proof of the Divinity of Jesus Christ. )

This is one of the reasons that Calvinism has such a hard time actually understanding Romans 9. Romans 9 isn't establishing their view of God's choice in them. It is setting forth God's choice in Himself. The work of Jesus Christ.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

There are other examples but I ask of you. Show me how Jesus didn't break the law of Moses by claiming to be God.

 

[Soyeong]

I know this isn't going to be popular but "hear me out" for a moment. I remember as a young Christian trying to defend some of the actions of Christ that were contrary to what the Pharisees claimed were blaspheme. They often claimed that Christ broke the "law of Moses". Which He did. However, Christ was never bound by the law of Moses. Never.

This in no way is an attempt to show Christ sinful. He is ABOVE sin. Impeccable and perfect. However, He did not become the perfect sacrifice for sin because He keep the law of Moses. He TOOK the penalty of the law and was judged for our sins. The approval of the Sacrificial offering of Jesus Christ was solely at the discretion of God the Father. It is the nature of Divinity with Christ Jesus that meet the requirement of God. Literally God Incarnate dying for mankind. Not an adherence to the law of Moses.

Furthermore, it has NEVER been a requirement for the "Lawgiver" to adhere to the law that He gives to those subject to Him. The LawGiver has right sand privileges not afforded to the subject of any law.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine;

John 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine:

( what a wonderful proof of the Divinity of Jesus Christ. )

This is one of the reasons that Calvinism has such a hard time actually understanding Romans 9. Romans 9 isn't establishing their view of God's choice in them. It is setting forth God's choice in Himself. The work of Jesus Christ.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

In Luke 2:21, Jesus was circumcised on the eight day as a member of the Mosaic Covenant. In Galatians 4:4, Jesus was born under the law, so he was obligated to obey it, and he was sinless, so he never broke it. It is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20), so to claim that Jesus broke it is to claim that he sinned and therefore to deny that he is our Savior. Even if Jesus hadn't been born under the law and obligated to obey it, then he still would have lived in perfect accordance with it because he would have still had the same nature. However, if Jesus was not under the law and free to break it without counting as sin, then that would rob all significance of him being sinless. The Mosaic Law describes the nature of the way that God acts, such as in 1 Peter, it instructs to be holy as God is holy, not something external to God that restricts His behavior.

There are other examples but I ask of you. Show me how Jesus didn't break the law of Moses by claiming to be God.

First show me where the Mosaic Law says that it is a sin to claim to be God. The problem with idolatry is that it misrepresents the nature of God, so if Jesus had been anything less than the exact image of God's nature, then worshiping Him as God would have been idolatry, but I see nothing in the Law of Moses that states that it would be a sin for Jesus to claim to be God.

 

[Diserner]

I don't think Jesus broke the Law of Moses, just some wrong interpretations of it.

I think he perfectly fulfilled it.

 

[Jaime]

I don't think Jesus broke the Law of Moses, just some wrong interpretations of it.

I think he perfectly fulfilled it.

He definitely ran affoul of the Pharisees “traditions of Men” that they held up against God’s perfect Torah. They accused him of breaking the Sabbath. He did not, he disagreed with their bad interpretations and in fact said be came to FILL FULL what they had emptied or effecfively abolished. Jesus chastised them in Mark 7 for their manmade tradition of hand washings to prevent food from being defiled. Their monkeying with God’s Torah greatly offended Jesus he set them straight at the end of Mark 7. In Mathew 5 he properly interpretted several laws to include the Spirit of the Law as God originally intended and they misinterpreted thereby abolishing Torah. He came to FILL Full what they had emptied. He advocated and taught Torah obedience, PROPER obedience as God intended, with his several “you have heard it said …….., but I say to you” statements in the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus didn’t come to do away with God’s perfect Torah (instruction), but to restore it to its intended purpose and interpretation. Especially considering his followup statements in Mathew 5:18-20:

18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[dwight92070]

I don't think Jesus broke the Law of Moses, just some wrong interpretations of it.

I think he perfectly fulfilled it.

He repeatedly broke the Sabbath Law and even told others to - "take up your pallet and go home." He acknowledged that when His disciples were picking the heads of grain on the sabbath Day, they were breaking the Law - not by picking the heads of grain (Deut.23:25), but by doing it on the sabbath day. Matthew 12:1-8 We know that, because He likened what they were doing to David and his men eating the shewbread, which was unlawful, yet He declared them innocent. He also declared His disciples innocent, even though they were unlawfully working on the sabbath - verse 7.
Notice verse 8 - "For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." That means He is not subservient to the sabbath, but the sabbath is subservient to Him.
This idea that the Creator of the universe must be obedient to the laws that He gave man is ridiculous. That in itself is legalism - demanding more from Jesus that He requires of Himself. Of course He would not go against a moral law, because that would violate His own character, but the sabbath was a ceremonial law, not a moral law. He could violate the ceremonial laws all day long and not incur any guilt whatsoever. He touched dead bodies and lepers, which was unlawful. He even acknowledged that if any man had a sheep fall into a pit on the sabbath day, that man would work to get that sheep out, implying no guilt whatsoever. He also said that the Jews would untie their animals on the sabbath and lead them away to water them, again incurring no guilt. He also said that the priests in the temple worked on the sabbath and were innocent.

How is it that you can make an exception for a man getting his sheep out of a pit, or leading his animals away to water them, or for the priests in the temple - but somehow you can't make an exception for Jesus, The Lord of the Sabbath? Is that a double standard or what?

 

[praise_yeshua]

He definitely ran affoul of the Pharisees “traditions of Men” that they held up against God’s perfect Torah. They accused him of breaking the Sabbath. He did not, he disagreed with their bad interpretations and in fact said be came to FILL FULL what they had emptied or effecfively abolished. Jesus chastised them in Mark 7 for their manmade tradition of hand washings to prevent food from being defiled. Their monkeying with God’s Torah greatly offended Jesus he set them straight at the end of Mark 7. In Mathew 5 he properly interpretted several laws to include the Spirit of the Law as God originally intended and they misinterpreted thereby abolishing Torah. He came to FILL Full what they had emptied. He advocated and taught Torah obedience, PROPER obedience as God intended, with his several “you have heard it said …….., but I say to you” statements in the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus didn’t come to do away with God’s perfect Torah (instruction), but to restore it to its intended purpose and interpretation. Especially considering his followup statements in Mathew 5:18-20:

18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

The law of Moses never made Jesus Christ righteous nor did it make Jesus Christ an acceptable offering for sin.

Did Jesus work on the Sabbath when he gave His life to humanity?

Exo 16:29 See! The LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Remain each of you in his place; let no one go out of his place on the seventh day.”

I know what you've been taught. I was taught the same things. There is meaning to be found in the teaching of the seventy day. A meaning you're not recognizing.

The "work of God" in Jesus Christ, allows us to rest in Him. Christ was worthy to do the work of God because He is God.

The "guy" that makes the rules doesn't have to live by those rules of obedience He demands of others. He is different. Impeccably perfect. Immutable. Without need of change.

 

[dwight92070]

If David and his men broke the ceremonial law by eating the shewbread, and were declared innocent by Jesus Himself, how much more could the Son of David, Jesus, The Lord of the Sabbath, break the ceremonial law, and be innocent?

Jaime quoted Jesus: 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Has the requirement for circumcision passed away? Of course it has. Paul made this very clear. So since circumcision passed from the law, then according to that verse, "all is accomplished" or fulfilled. So since Jesus fulfilled the Law, we are no longer under the Law.

The apostle Paul made it clear that he was not under the law in 1 Cor.9:20:

"... though not being myself under the law, ..."

So we know that no one is under the law today, even if they think they are, they are deceived. We are under the Law of Christ. Under Him there is no sabbath day law and no circumcision law, just to mention a few.

Paul also said, "Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ." 1 Cor.11:1 But Paul did not consider himself under the Law. Therefore since Paul was imitating Christ, we know Jesus didn't consider Himself under the Law either.

Yes, Jesus was born under the Law. But that does not mean that, as an adult, He was bound to keep the Law. It simply means that His parents kept the Law and He probably did while under their authority. But when He left them, He was no longer bound by the Law.

Among other things Jesus came to set us free from the Law:
Galatians 3:13 "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law ..."

So how can some say that He redeemed us from the curse of the Law, but He Himself had to still live under that curse? What rubbish.

 

[Jaime]

The law of Moses never made Jesus Christ righteous nor did it make Jesus Christ an acceptable offering for sin.

Did Jesus work on the Sabbath when he gave His life to humanity?

Exo 16:29 See! The LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Remain each of you in his place; let no one go out of his place on the seventh day.”

I know what you've been taught. I was taught the same things. There is meaning to be found in the teaching of the seventy day. A meaning you're not recognizing.

The "work of God" in Jesus Christ, allows us to rest in Him. Christ was worthy to do the work of God because He is God.

The "guy" that makes the rules doesn't have to live by those rules of obedience He demands of others. He is different. Impeccably perfect. Immutable. Without need of change.

Jesus is saying that the pharisees were imposing their traditions of men as the Law of God. God’s Law included the Spirit of the Law. The traditions of men majored on the LETTER +++ of the Law. In Mathew 5 Jesus gave several examples where he was properly restoring the spirit of the law, ie filling it full back to the way God originally intended it. As he said he didn’t come to abolish or overturn the Law - He propey interpreted what they had fouled up. Same with the Sabbath.

 

[Jaime]

Bonus question - if Jesus is Lord and he IS the Lord of the Sabbath,, which day is the Lord’s day?

 

[Diserner]

He repeatedly broke the Sabbath Law

Hello. I certainly wasn't implying God has moral obligations to obey his own Law, but when Jesus submitted himself to becoming a man he did bind himself to the Law of God. We are all required to keep that Law of God, and failure to do so is called "sin." When God commands a ceremonial law, it becomes at the time he commands it a moral law. Because obedience is a moral issue. So the OT Jews could not simply ignore God's ceremonial laws as irrelevant to morality. However the laws were not meant to be kept legalistically—that was not their intent. Thus, the things that Christ does only seem to the legalistic Pharisees to be breaking the Law—they were not actually breaking the spirit of the Law at any point. There may be some cases where the Messiah is given special exemption, however in the main I firmly believe Jesus truly kept the Torah. And on the Cross the Old Covenant ended.

I am no longer posting here, this is an exception.

 

[Obadiah]

What did Christ mean when He formally defended Himself against the accusation of Sabbath-breaking, saying, “My father is working still, and I am working” (John 5:17)? This statement has been subjected to considerable scrutiny and some far-reaching conclusions have been advanced. J. Daniélou maintains that “the words of Christ formally condemn the application to God of the Sabbath rest understood as idleness.… The working of Christ is seen to be the reality which comes to replace the figurative idleness of the Sabbath.”

From Sabbath to Sunday: A Historical Investigation of the Rise of Sunday Observance in Early Christianity​

by Samuele Bacchiocchi

 

[Jaime]

Hello. I certainly wasn't implying God has moral obligations to obey his own Law, but when Jesus submitted himself to becoming a man he did bind himself to the Law of God. We are all required to keep that Law of God, and failure to do so is called "sin." When God commands a ceremonial law, it becomes at the time he commands it a moral law. Because obedience is a moral issue. So the OT Jews could not simply ignore God's ceremonial laws as irrelevant to morality. However the laws were not meant to be kept legalistically—that was not their intent. Thus, the things that Christ does only seem to the legalistic Pharisees to be breaking the Law—they were not actually breaking the spirit of the Law at any point. There may be some cases where the Messiah is given special exemption, however in the main I firmly believe Jesus truly kept the Torah. And on the Cross the Old Covenant ended.

I am no longer posting here, this is an exception.

I agree with your statement.

 

[Wick Stick]

Christ was never bound by the law of Moses. Never.

I agree with this much, at least.

Christ was the promised heir of Abraham's covenant.

Moses' covenant came later and was "added because of transgressions." It was meant to be a temporary covenant for the PUNISHMENT of Israel.

The prophet Jeremiah was already declaring the dereliction of Moses' covenant and the establishment of a "New Covenant" in the 8th century BC.

9 centuries later, some bass-ackwards Israelites were still clinging to their covenant of PUNISHMENT out of false-piety. Moses' Law gave them the opportunity to ESTABLISH THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS against that of their neighbor.

 

[civic]

Bonus question - if Jesus is Lord and he IS the Lord of the Sabbath,, which day is the Lord’s day?

every day.

 

[civic]

If David and his men broke the ceremonial law by eating the shewbread, and were declared innocent by Jesus Himself, how much more could the Son of David, Jesus, The Lord of the Sabbath, break the ceremonial law, and be innocent?

Jaime quoted Jesus: 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Has the requirement for circumcision passed away? Of course it has. Paul made this very clear. So since circumcision passed from the law, then according to that verse, "all is accomplished" or fulfilled. So since Jesus fulfilled the Law, we are no longer under the Law.

The apostle Paul made it clear that he was not under the law in 1 Cor.9:20:

"... though not being myself under the law, ..."

So we know that no one is under the law today, even if they think they are, they are deceived. We are under the Law of Christ. Under Him there is no sabbath day law and no circumcision law, just to mention a few.

Paul also said, "Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ." 1 Cor.11:1 But Paul did not consider himself under the Law. Therefore since Paul was imitating Christ, we know Jesus didn't consider Himself under the Law either.

Yes, Jesus was born under the Law. But that does not mean that, as an adult, He was bound to keep the Law. It simply means that His parents kept the Law and He probably did while under their authority. But when He left them, He was no longer bound by the Law.

Among other things Jesus came to set us free from the Law:
Galatians 3:13 "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law ..."

So how can some say that He redeemed us from the curse of the Law, but He Himself had to still live under that curse? What rubbish.

If He broke the law of Moses then that would make Him guilty of sin and a sinner.

 

[Jaime]

God’s Law was for a blessing. Man perverted it into a curse with manmade traditions such as hand washings and such that Jesus ran affoul of the Pharisees in Mark 7, (not God’s Torah) God’s Law was perfect and for a blessing to mankind. The handwritten ordinances held as a witness against us, (the Mosaic Law) and stored BESIDE the Ark and was what was nailed to the cross. God’s perfect and just moral Law remains.

Deut 31:24 -27
24 ¶ When Moses had finished writing the words of this law in a book to the very end,
25 Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD,
26 “Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.
27 For I know how rebellious and stubborn you are. Behold, even today while I am yet alive with you, you have been rebellious against the LORD. How much more after my death!

 

[Wick Stick]

God’s Law was for a blessing.

Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made; and it was ordained by angels through an intermediary. Galatians 3:19

 

[Jaime]

[It was added because of transgressions[/B], till the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made; and it was ordained by angels through an intermediary. Galatians 3:19[/COLOR]

Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made; and it was ordained by angels through an intermediary. Galatians 3:19

Gods Law serves to reveal God's holy standard, expose and define human sinfulness (showing our need for a Savior like Jesus), guide believers in righteous living (love God, love neighbor), restrain societal evil, and demonstrate how to live a blessed life in relationship with God and others, ultimately reflecting God's character. They function as a mirror to show our flaws and a guide for a life of freedom and peace, NOT a means to earn salvation.

 

[Wick Stick]

Gods Law serves to reveal God's holy standard, expose and define human sinfulness (showing our need for a Savior like Jesus), guide believers in righteous living (love God, love neighbor), restrain societal evil, and demonstrate how to live a blessed life in relationship with God and others, ultimately reflecting God's character. They function as a mirror to show our flaws and a guide for a life of freedom and peace, not a means to earn salvation.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of those points, but it ought to be stated that the Law was NOT for a blessing. The Law contains both blessings and curses. The Israelites NEVER inherited the blessings, and ALWAYS inherited the curses. They broke the covenant even before they even sware to it:

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: 39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust [him] from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt, 40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for [as for] this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. 41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. 42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices [by the space of] forty years in the wilderness? 43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon. (Acts 7)

The Law may have become a schoolmaster, but originally...

It was added because of transgressions. Galatians 3:19

The Prophets and the New Testament agree... the sacrifices of the Law were never effective, never desired by God, nor accepted by Him.

18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end [is] it for you? the day of the LORD [is] darkness, and not light. ... 21 I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies. 22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept [them]: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts. 23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.
(Amos 5)

 

[Jaime]

In Deuteronomy chapter 30, they were give given a choice, blessings or curses. They chose curses. God’s commands were not a burden or difficult. They were INTENDED as blessings. It was all their choice. They blew it. I was told all my life that no one could obey the Law. God said I was told wrong as per Deuteronomy 30.