'Henceforth know we no man after the flesh' (2 Corinthians 5:16)

[Complete]

'For the love of Christ constraineth us;
because we thus judge,
that if one died for all, then were all dead:
And that He died for all,
that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves,
but unto Him which died for them, and rose again.
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh:
yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh,
yet now henceforth know we Him no more.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:
old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.'
(2 Cor. 5:14)

Hello there,

I am not certain where to place this post, but I believe that it is concerning the gospel of God: it's effect, and the worthy walk that attends it, to the glory of God The Father, in Christ Jesus, by The Spirit. So I place it here in this section related to the gospel of the grace of God.

The words ' ... ... henceforth know we no man after the flesh.'

I would value your input regarding these words, within their context.

I see that these words are used in other contexts elsewhere in Scripture, and so see that there is a journey to go on here, in regard to these words and their application. I look forward to hearing what you have found in regard to them, and perhaps examples given in regard to their outworking experientially.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[JoshebB]

'For the love of Christ constraineth us;
because we thus judge,
that if one died for all, then were all dead:
And that He died for all,
that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves,
but unto Him which died for them, and rose again.
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh:
yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh,
yet now henceforth know we Him no more.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:
old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.'
(2 Cor. 5:14)

Hello there,

I am not certain where to place this post, but I believe that it is concerning the gospel of God: it's effect, and the worthy walk that attends it, to the glory of God The Father, in Christ Jesus, by The Spirit. So I place it here in this section related to the gospel of the grace of God.

The words ' ... ... henceforth know we no man after the flesh.'

I would value your input regarding these words, within their context.

I see that these words are used in other contexts elsewhere in Scripture, and so see that there is a journey to go on here, in regard to these words and their application. I look forward to hearing what you have found in regard to them, and perhaps examples given in regard to their outworking experientially.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Note Paul added something important: He and his readers had known Jesus "after the flesh." Since knowledge never goes away (it is record in our memory in perpetuity) Paul's knowing Jesus in the flesh did not vanish because he knew Jesus in some other way. It is, therefore, best to understand Paul to mean Christians know others in ways that are additional to the flesh. Paul cannot be interpreted to mean we no longer use our eyes and ears, or that we do should stop using our sense of smell, taste, or touch to know people. Paul's asserting the use of reason, not denying it. Previously, in his first letter to the congregations in Corinth, Paul had stated the natural man does not understand the things of the Spirit. That does not mean the spiritual man (or woman) ceases to use his eyes, ears, faculties of reason, etc. Faith comes by hearing the gospel (Rom. 10). That verse was written to the saints. That means the faith of the already-redeemed comes by hearing the gospel. They've already heard and believed the gospel but that does not change the fact faith continues to come by the hearing of the gospel.

But "hearing" is not merely the movement of sound waves across space into the physical ear made of flesh canal into the brain that is also made of flesh. The prophets, Jesus, and the apostles made it clear: a person could physically hear the gospel and not understand it and much of the time that is because God intentionally prevented their understanding. Physically hearing with physical faculties and the faculties of merely the flesh profit nothing. It is God who gives knowledge, wisdom, and understanding.


So, while knowing someone with the eyes, ears, and hand may have some benefit, it is of much less value than knowing them in Christ, knowing them via the same Spirit at work in the regenerate and indwelt. If anyone is in Christ then s/he is a new creature and someone you or I may have known for decades is suddenly new and different.


My oldest friend, a man I have known for 55 years has come to Christ. He first came to Christ (as you or I would understand those words) about 15 years ago. At that time, I told him to be prepared to have everything he previously thought he knew changed. It can be quite confrontational and dauntingly so to become a Christian. Every person thinks they are reasonable and rational and right and then they come to Christ and realize they were wrong about many things in many ways. God, however, is faithful and He will not injuriously break a person He has purchased. My friend, however, wasn't quite ready to surrender everything and he dabbled in many faith communities trying to find one that he liked. The Church is not (merely) a social club. He had a tough time negotiating the sectarian realities (bouncing back and forth between Mennonites, Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists, etc. He eventually got baptized (full immersion in the Shenandoah River in November! and suddenly life began to change apart from the works of his own flesh. I spoke to him last week and he was talking stuff that would have been alien to him five years ago. Had I said the exact same words to him, they'd have gone proverbially in one ear and out the other (and I did tell him much). He had to come to know himself and others in ways additional to the flesh. I am overjoyed. He could not see my eye-squinting ear-to-ear grin hearing of God's work in his life because we were on the phone. He now knows and is known. I'd been a convert to Christ mor than 20 years when my next-younger brother came to Christ. One day while he was visiting, shortly after his conversion, I showed him my library and said he could borrow any book he likes whenever he likes. "No thank you." Now he reads a book and describes it with delight, and I share in his joy without telling him I read that book many years ago and he could have borrowed it from my library at any time. Those words would be factually true, but not profitable. It's quite possible for factual words from one person to obstruct God's work in another . I had to learn that. Those mistakes happen less frequently when we remember to know others more than just in the flesh.


Few Christians have had a conversion experience like Thomas' where the opportunity to put our hand in Jesus' side and see the wounds with the faculties of our flesh. Some Christians, like myself, have the blessing and privilege to come to Christ in an event like Paul's Damascus road experience. God brings people to His resurrected and ascendant Son in many ways, some less dramatic than others. Some are envious and doubt their faith because of this but the fact is drama is just a matter of the flesh. The perceptive power of miracles does not endure. The wilderness-wandering Hebrews learned this profoundly. Most of them could not and did not maintain their faith despite having seen the sea divided and the earth opened up. What makes us Christians is our belief Jesus is the Son of God almighty. We cannot know people lacking that faith in the same way we can know people possessing that faith and, even then, knowing and being known is challenging (Paul himself had a difficult time with that).

 

[JoshebB]

As I was writing the op-reply, I recalled many things Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote in "Life Together." Here are a few excerpts,

”Christianity means community through Jesus Christ and in Jesus Christ. No Christian community is any more or less than this… We belong to one another only through and in Jesus Christ. What does this mean? It means, first, that a Christian needs others because of Christ. It means, second, that a Christian comes to others only through Christ. It means, third, that in Jesus Christ we have been chosen from eternity, accepted in time, and united for eternity. First, the Christian is a man who no longer seeks his salvation, his deliverance, his justification in himself, but in Jesus Christ alone. He knows that God’s word in Jesus pronounces him guilty, even when he does not feel his guilt, and God’s word in Jesus Christ pronounces him not guilty and righteous, even when he does not feel that he is righteous at all. The Christian no longer lives of himself, by his own claims and his own justification. He lives wholly by God’s word pronounced upon him, whether the word declares him guilty or innocent.”​

”In Christian brotherhood everything depends upon its being clear right from the beginning, first, that Christian brotherhood is not an ideal, but a divine reality. Second, that Christian brotherhood is a spiritual and not a psychic reality.”​

”He who loves his dream of a community more than the Christian community itself becomes a destroyer of the latter, even though his personal intentions may be ever so honest and earnest and sacrificial.”​

”The first condition [of praying together], which makes it possible for an individual to pray for the group, is the intercession of all the others for him and for his prayer. How could one person pray the prayer of the fellowship without being steadied and upheld in prayer by the fellowship itself? At this very point, every word of criticism must be transformed into fervent intercession and brotherly help.”​

”Often we combat our evil thoughts most effectively if we absolutely refuse to allow them to be expressed in words. It is certain that the spirit of self-justification can be overcome only by the Spirit of grace, nevertheless, isolated thoughts of judgment can be curbed and smothered by never allowing them the right to be uttered, except as a confession of sin… He who holds his tongue in check controls both mind and body (Jms. 3). Thus it is a decisive rule of every Christian fellowship that each individual is prohibited from saying much that occurs to him… to speak about a brother covertly is forbidden, even under the cloak of help and good will; for it is precisely in this guise that the spirit of hatred among brothers always creeps in when it is seeking to create mischief.”​

“Where this discipline of the tongue is practiced right from the beginning, each individual will make a matchless discovery. He will be able to cease from constantly scrutinizing the other person, judging him, condemning him, putting him in his particular place where he can gain ascendancy over him and thus doing violence to him as a person. Now he can allow the brother to exist as a completely free person, as God made him to be. His view expands and, to his amazement, for the first time he sees, shining above his brethren, the richness of God’s creative glory. God did not make this person as I would have made him. He did not give him to me as a brother for me to dominate and control, but in order that I might find above him the Creator. Now the other person, in the freedom with which he was created, becomes the occasion for joy, whereas before he was only a nuisance and an affliction. God does not will that I should fashion the other person according to my image; rather in his very freedom from me God made this person in His image. I can never know beforehand how God’s image should appear in others. That image always manifests a completely new and unique form that comes solely from God’s free and sovereign creation”​

”…he who can no longer listen to his brother will soon be no longer listening to God, either; he will be doing nothing but prattle in the presence of God, too. This is the beginning of the death of the spiritual life, and in the end there is nothing left but spiritual chatter and clerical condescension arrayed in pious words… Anyone who thinks his time is too valuable to spend keeping quiet will eventually have no time for God and his brother, but only for himself and for his own follies.”​

We can't not know people after the flesh in the sense of what we see, hear, and touch but the flesh is selfish and self-seeking. The fleshly ways do not please God and do not have enduring profit for ourselves or others. We're not supposed to know others that way. That doesn't mean we're to be ascetics. Bonhoeffer wrote the notes that later became "Life Together" while on the run from the Nazis, living among others being persecuted. It's a good read. I highly recommend it.

 

[SteveB]

'For the love of Christ constraineth us;
because we thus judge,
that if one died for all, then were all dead:
And that He died for all,
that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves,
but unto Him which died for them, and rose again.
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh:
yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh,
yet now henceforth know we Him no more.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:
old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.'
(2 Cor. 5:14)

Hello there,

I am not certain where to place this post, but I believe that it is concerning the gospel of God: it's effect, and the worthy walk that attends it, to the glory of God The Father, in Christ Jesus, by The Spirit. So I place it here in this section related to the gospel of the grace of God.

The words ' ... ... henceforth know we no man after the flesh.'

I would value your input regarding these words, within their context.

I see that these words are used in other contexts elsewhere in Scripture, and so see that there is a journey to go on here, in regard to these words and their application. I look forward to hearing what you have found in regard to them, and perhaps examples given in regard to their outworking experientially.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi.

I've always taken it to tie back to Philippians 3,
Phi 3:13 Brothers, I don’t regard myself as yet having taken hold, but one thing I do: forgetting the things which are behind and stretching forward to the things which are before,

We don't focus on our past, before Christ.

We focus on learning to follow Jesus, and what he's doing in our lives.

 

[JoshebB]

Hi.

I've always taken it to tie back to Philippians 3,
Phi 3:13 Brothers, I don’t regard myself as yet having taken hold, but one thing I do: forgetting the things which are behind and stretching forward to the things which are before,

We don't focus on our past, before Christ.

We focus on learning to follow Jesus, and what he's doing in our lives.

Curious mix of scriptures. In 2 Cor. 5 Paul is writing about how he/we know people in the converted state, while in Php. 3 he is writing about what is "before" him, but that "before" means what is ahead of him in the future and the prize of God's heavenly calling.

 

[Dizerner]

Christians to this day are more impressed by a person's knowledge, accomplishments, charisma, popularity, social importance, good looks, or wealth, than the purity of their heart for God. Paul himself said others saw him as unimpressive in the natural, and apparently, he may have even seen Christ during his life and been unimpressed by his appearance. To see God's approval and anointing we must look beyond the natural.

 

[SteveB]

Curious mix of scriptures.

Why?

In 2 Cor. 5 Paul is writing about how he/we know people in the converted state,

right.

while in Php. 3 he is writing about what is "before" him, but that "before" means what is ahead of him in the future and the prize of God's heavenly calling.

Both are about our focus...
I could include others too, but I wanted to emphasize that our focus is to be on our future in Christ. Not on our or each other's pasts.

 

[JoshebB]

Why?

I just answered question and explained the answer.

right.

Both are about our focus...
I could include others too, but I wanted to emphasize that our focus is to be on our future in Christ. Not on our or each other's pasts.

Philippians 3:13 does not do that. Philippians 3:13 explicitly states Paul did not believe he had yet achieved that which would be achieved in resurrection. The op asks for an explanation of 2 Cor. 5:14's not knowing anyone according to the flesh...... here and now, not on the other side of the grave.

 

[SteveB]

I just answered question and explained the answer.

Philippians 3:13 does not do that. Philippians 3:13 explicitly states Paul did not believe he had yet achieved that which would be achieved in resurrection. The op asks for an explanation of 2 Cor. 5:14's not knowing anyone according to the flesh...... here and now, not on the other side of the grave.

I copied 3:13 directly from my Bible.

So, you can believe whatever you want.
I'll let you work through it and find yours.


Philippians 3:1
ABP το To the λοιπόν rest, αδελφοί μου my brethren, χαίρετε rejoice εν in κυρίω the Lord! τα The αυτά same things γράφειν to write υμίν to you, εμοί to me μεν indeed ουκ is not οκνηρόν laziness, υμίν δε but for you ασφαλές safe.
BBE For the rest, my brothers, be glad in the Lord. Writing the same things to you is no trouble to me, and for you it is safe.

BIB Τὸ (-) λοιπόν (Finally), ἀδελφοί (brothers) μου (of me), χαίρετε (rejoice) ἐν (in) Κυρίῳ (the Lord). τὰ (The) αὐτὰ (same things) γράφειν (to write) ὑμῖν (to you), ἐμοὶ (to me) μὲν (indeed) οὐκ (is not) ὀκνηρόν (troublesome); ὑμῖν (for you) δὲ (now) ἀσφαλές (is safe).
BIB Τὸ To - λοιπόν loipon Finally , ἀδελφοί adelphoi brothers , μου mou my χαίρετε chairete rejoice ἐν en in Κυρίῳ Kyriō [the] Lord . τὰ ta the αὐτὰ auta same things γράφειν graphein to write ὑμῖν hymin to you ἐμοὶ emoi for me μὲν men again , οὐκ ouk [It is] no ὀκνηρόν oknēron trouble ὑμῖν hymin for you . δὲ de and ἀσφαλές asphales [it is] a safeguard
Bishops Moreouer my brethren, reioyce ye in the Lord. It greeueth me not to write the same thyng often to you, for to you it is a sure thyng.
BLB Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you indeed is not troublesome to me, and is safe for you.
BSB Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord. It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you.
Coverdale Morover my brethren, reioyce in the LORDE. Where as I wryte euer one thinge vnto you, it greueth me not, and maketh you the surer.
Darby For the rest, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord: to write the same things to you, to me is not irksome, and for you safe.
DRC As to the rest, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not wearisome, but to you it is necessary.
EasyEnglish Now, friends, I want to say this to you. Be happy because you are united to the Lord. It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again. And it will be safer for you.
Geneva Moreouer, my brethren, reioyce in the Lord. It grieueth mee not to write the same things to you, and for you it is a sure thing.
HB 3:1 וּבְכֵן, אַחַי, שִׂמְחוּ בָּאָדוֹן. לִכְתֹּב לָכֶם שׁוּב אֶת אוֹתוֹ דָּבָר אֵינֶנּוּ לְטֹרַח עָלַי, אַךְ לָכֶם זֶה מוֹסִיף לְבִטָּחוֹן.

HNV Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord! To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not tiresome, but for you it is safe.
ISV So then, my brothers, keep on rejoicing in the Lord. It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you; indeed, it is for your safety.
JMNT As for the rest (or: For what remains), my brothers (= family; = fellow believers), continue rejoicing (be habitually glad and delighted) within [the] Lord [= Christ or Yahweh]. To be repeatedly writing the same things to you (or: To continue writing these very things for you) [is] surely not troublesome for me (or: delaying me or causing me to hesitate), and for you [it is] something to secure you from stumbling.
KJV Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

Matthew Moreouer my brethren, reioyce in the Lorde. It greueth me not to write one thinge often to you. For to you it is a sure thynge.
MKJV1962 Finally, my brothers, rejoice in [the] Lord. To write the same things to you is indeed not grievous to me, but for you [it is] safe.
NET Finally, my brothers and sisters, rejoice in the Lord! To write this again is no trouble to me, and it is a safeguard for you.
NHEB Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you is no trouble to me, and is a safeguard for you.
OGNT Τὸ To to the λοιπόν loipon liypon henceforth, ἀδελφοί adelphoi aðelfiy brother μου mou mu my, χαίρετε chairete kherete to rejoice ἐν en en in Κυρίῳ Kyriō kiyriyo lord. τὰ ta ta the αὐτὰ auta afta them γράφειν graphein grafiyn to write ὑμῖν hymin iymiyn to you ἐμοὶ emoi emiy to me μὲν men men on the other hand οὐκ ouk uk no ὀκνηρόν oknēron okniyron lazy, ὑμῖν hymin iymiyn to you δὲ de ðe and ἀσφαλές asphales asfales secure.¶
OGNTa Τὸ λοιπόν, ἀδελφοί μου, χαίρετε ἐν Κυρίῳ. τὰ αὐτὰ γράφειν ὑμῖν ἐμοὶ μὲν οὐκ ὀκνηρόν, ὑμῖν δὲ ἀσφαλές.¶
OGNTbe ⚐⊕Τὸ λοιπόν, ἀδελφοί μου, χαίρετε ἐν Κυρίῳ. ⚐⊕τὰ αὐτὰ γράφειν ὑμῖν ⊕ἐμοὶ μὲν οὐκ ὀκνηρόν, ⚐⊕ὑμῖν δὲ ἀσφαλές.¶ Τὸ- λοιπόνFinally, ἀδελφοίbrothers μουof me, χαίρετεrejoice ἐνin Κυρίῳ[the] Lord. Finally, my brothers, rejoice in [the] Lord. Finally, my brothers, rejoice in [the] Lord. τὰThe αὐτὰsame things γράφεινto write ὑμῖνto you, ἐμοὶto me μὲνindeed οὐκ[is] not ὀκνηρόνtroublesome; To write the same things to you indeed [is] not troublesome to me, [It is] no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, ὑμῖνfor you δὲnow ἀσφαλές[is] safe. and [is] safe for you. and [it is] a safeguard for you.
OGNTk το λοιπον, αδελφοι μου, χαιρετε εν κ̅ω̅. τα αυτα γραφειν υμιν εμοι μεν ουκ οκνηρον, υμιν δε αϲφαλεϲ.¶

OGNTnet Finally, my brothers and sisters, rejoice in the Lord! To write this again is no trouble to me, and it is a safeguard for you.°⊕Τὸ λοιπόν, ἀδελφοί μου, χαίρετε ἐν Κυρίῳ.°⊕τὰ αὐτὰ γράφειν ὑμῖν ⊕ἐμοὶ μὲν οὐκ ὀκνηρόν,°⊕ὑμῖν δὲ ἀσφαλές.¶

RNKJV Finally, my brethren, rejoice in Master. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
SLT As to the rest, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me is not slothful, and to you safe.
T4T Now there are other things that I want to write about. My fellow believers, continue to rejoice because you belong to the Lord. Though I will now write to you about those same matters that I mentioned to you before, this is not tiresome for me, and it will protect you from those who would harm you spiritually.

Vulgate de cetero fratres mei gaudete in Domino eadem vobis scribere mihi quidem non pigrum vobis autem necessarium
WEB Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord! To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not tiresome, but for you it is safe.
WEBU Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord! To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not tiresome, but for you it is safe.
Wycliffe Hennus forward, my britheren, haue ye ioye in the Lord. To write to you the same thingis, to me it is not slow, and to you it is necessarie.
Wycliffe-Modern Henceforward, my brethren, have ye joy in the Lord. To write to you the same things, to me it is not slow, and to you it is necessary.

YLT As to the rest, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord; the same things to write to you to me indeed is not tiresome, and for you is sure;


I'm not interested in arguing about it.

 

[JoshebB]

I copied 3:13 directly from my Bible.

Yes, you did. That is not in dispute. It is how the verse was misused that is in question.

So, you can believe whatever you want. I'll let you work through it and find yours.

Nice red herring. You can believe what you want, too. Everyone here has the liberty to believe what they want. Everyone individual on the entire planet has the liberty to believe what they want. That is, until they stand before God. You can, in fact, believe an appeal to "You can believe what you want is a rational response, but it is not. What it does do is display the flesh....., which, ironically, is what we're supposed to be discussing: the meaning of "we henceforth know no man after the flesh!" You've created a wonderful object lesson! You can believe Php. 3:13 explains 2 Cor. 5:14 but that belief does not make it true. You can believe whatever you make Php. 3:13 say, but that does not make the text mean what you think.

The fact is the Philippians 3 text explicitly states, "heavenly calling." Paul explicitly states, "Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on...." and "I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet...," indicating his reference was not a current condition. Paul explicitly stated he was reaching for what is ahead, pressing on toward the goal of an upward call. It is not until verses 16 and 17 that Paul mentions current any current relationship within current conditions in Christ.

Philippians 3:15-21
Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained. Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Remember: Paul said he hadn't then yet obtained perfection. He then encourages those who are perfect to have the same attitude. And.....

So, you can believe whatever you want. I'll let you work through it and find yours................... I'm not interested in arguing about it.

.....does not display that attitude. It is among the worst possible responses that could have been posted.


Php. 3:1 never proves Paul was writing about 2 Cor. 5:14 in Php. 3:13. Quoting it in a bazilliongecquillion translations does not change that fact.

I'm not interested in arguing about it.

Then don't argue with me. Silence would have been better than Post 9. Acknowledging the facts of the larger text would have been better than either. In 2 Corinthians 5:14 Paul is writing about current conditions of life in Christ and how it is we relate or "know" others. Philippians 3:13 is about what lay ahead of him and obtaining an upward calling he says he has not achieved. Paul cannot logically say, "We henceforth know..." if that knowing hasn't yet been obtained. That would completely irrational.

I copied 3:13 directly from my Bible.

And I copied the verse before it and the verse after it to prove your use of the verse is in error because that verse is about future conditions, not ones Paul currently possessed.

Philippians 3:12-14
Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.


Verse 13 should never have been removed from its surrounding text and treated as a standalone verse.

 

[SteveB]

Yes, you did. That is not in dispute. It is how the verse was misused that is in question.

Nice red herring. You can believe what you want, too. Everyone here has the liberty to believe what they want. Everyone individual on the entire planet has the liberty to believe what they want. That is, until they stand before God. You can, in fact, believe an appeal to "You can believe what you want is a rational response, but it is not. What it does do is display the flesh....., which, ironically, is what we're supposed to be discussing: the meaning of "we henceforth know no man after the flesh!" You've created a wonderful object lesson! You can believe Php. 3:13 explains 2 Cor. 5:14 but that belief does not make it true. You can believe whatever you make Php. 3:13 say, but that does not make the text mean what you think.

The fact is the Philippians 3 text explicitly states, "heavenly calling." Paul explicitly states, "Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on...." and "I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet...," indicating his reference was not a current condition. Paul explicitly stated he was reaching for what is ahead, pressing on toward the goal of an upward call. It is not until verses 16 and 17 that Paul mentions current any current relationship within current conditions in Christ.

Philippians 3:15-21
Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained. Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Remember: Paul said he hadn't then yet obtained perfection. He then encourages those who are perfect to have the same attitude. And.....

.....does not display that attitude. It is among the worst possible responses that could have been posted.


Php. 3:1 never proves Paul was writing about 2 Cor. 5:14 in Php. 3:13. Quoting it in a bazilliongecquillion translations does not change that fact.

Then don't argue with me. Silence would have been better than Post 9. Acknowledging the facts of the larger text would have been better than either. In 2 Corinthians 5:14 Paul is writing about current conditions of life in Christ and how it is we relate or "know" others. Philippians 3:13 is about what lay ahead of him and obtaining an upward calling he says he has not achieved. Paul cannot logically say, "We henceforth know..." if that knowing hasn't yet been obtained. That would completely irrational.

And I copied the verse before it and the verse after it to prove your use of the verse is in error because that verse is about future conditions, not ones Paul currently possessed.

Philippians 3:12-14
Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.


Verse 13 should never have been removed from its surrounding text and treated as a standalone verse.

As previously stated,
I'm good with the application I connected it to.

2 Corinthians 5:16...
I don't focus on learning the past life of believers. I only focus on learning their new life in Christ.

Philippians 3:13.
I don't focus on the past life, before Christ. I focus on learning to follow Jesus.

I'm not having a problem here. Apparently you are.
I'm not seeing where I'm supposed to bow to your opinions on it.
I do however see a few things that are pertinent here, regarding this.

1- Romans 14:4-5.

Rom 14:4-5 WEB 4 Who are you who judge another’s servant? To his own lord he stands or falls. Yes, he will be made to stand, for God has power to make him stand. 5 One man esteems one day as more important. Another esteems every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind.

2- Romans 14:23

Rom 14:23 WEB But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because it isn’t of faith; and whatever is not of faith is sin.

3- Titus 1:15.

Tit 1:15 WEB To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

Based on your comments thus far, I'm fairly confident that you're going to blow a gasket here, and start telling me that I'm wrong to trust in Jesus regarding these issues.

I think that no matter what I say, it's going to rub you the wrong way. And you'll continue to blow gaskets, and keep doing so until long after you run out of oil.

Just know that I'm not following you.
I'm following Jesus.
I'm not saying that we should focus on our respective past's, and make our boast in life before Jesus.

If you were a dick before you met Jesus, I don't particularly care.
You don't gain any benefit in knowing the life I lived before Jesus, and I gain no benefit knowing that about you.

We both however gain great benefits and edify the body of Christ, and the Kingdom of God growing and focusing on Jesus.

So, stop.
Engines with blown gaskets just lose oil and finally seize up, damaging the whole vehicle.

Replace your gaskets, Refill your oil and move on.
If you really believe you have a legitimate complaint, file a grievance with the @Administrator

 

[JoshebB]

As previously stated,
I'm good with the application I connected it to.

2 Corinthians 5:16...
I don't focus on learning the past life of believers. I only focus on learning their new life in Christ.

Philippians 3:13.
I don't focus on the past life, before Christ. I focus on learning to follow Jesus.

I'm not having a problem here. Apparently you are.
I'm not seeing where I'm supposed to bow to your opinions on it.
I do however see a few things that are pertinent here, regarding this.

1- Romans 14:4-5.

Rom 14:4-5 WEB 4 Who are you who judge another’s servant? To his own lord he stands or falls. Yes, he will be made to stand, for God has power to make him stand. 5 One man esteems one day as more important. Another esteems every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind.

2- Romans 14:23

Rom 14:23 WEB But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because it isn’t of faith; and whatever is not of faith is sin.

3- Titus 1:15.

Tit 1:15 WEB To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

Based on your comments thus far, I'm fairly confident that you're going to blow a gasket here, and start telling me that I'm wrong to trust in Jesus regarding these issues.

I think that no matter what I say, it's going to rub you the wrong way. And you'll continue to blow gaskets, and keep doing so until long after you run out of oil.

Just know that I'm not following you.
I'm following Jesus.
I'm not saying that we should focus on our respective past's, and make our boast in life before Jesus.

If you were a dick before you met Jesus, I don't particularly care.
You don't gain any benefit in knowing the life I lived before Jesus, and I gain no benefit knowing that about you.

We both however gain great benefits and edify the body of Christ, and the Kingdom of God growing and focusing on Jesus.

So, stop.
Engines with blown gaskets just lose oil and finally seize up, damaging the whole vehicle.

Replace your gaskets, Refill your oil and move on.
If you really believe you have a legitimate complaint, file a grievance with the @Administrator

What is the specific point of inquiry of this op?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Christians to this day are more impressed by a person's knowledge, accomplishments, charisma, popularity, social importance, good looks, or wealth, than the purity of their heart for God. Paul himself said others saw him as unimpressive in the natural, and apparently, he may have even seen Christ during his life and been unimpressed by his appearance. To see God's approval and anointing we must look beyond the natural.

How about words?

They come from the heart.......

 

[SteveB]

What is the specific point of inquiry of this op?

As i previously stated.... if you want an argument, you'll find yourself talking to a wall. I'm satisfied with my application. The OP appears satisfied with my application.

you .... well, it seems pretty clear to me that you simply want to wrangle over semantics and while you strain out gnats, you're swallowing camels. I'm not interested.....

as further stated above, take your gripe up with the @Administrator

From post # 1.


The words ' ... ... henceforth know we no man after the flesh.'

I would value your input regarding these words, within their context.

I see that these words are used in other contexts elsewhere in Scripture, and so see that there is a journey to go on here, in regard to these words and their application. I look forward to hearing what you have found in regard to them, and perhaps examples given in regard to their outworking experientially.

 

[JoshebB]

As i previously stated.... if you want an argument.....

It's a simple question. The answer for which is already provided in the op. No argument is necessary, expected, or required so I do not know why you think Post #14 is germane. The answer to that question is NOT "JoshebB." I am not the point of discussion no matter how many attempts are made to make it such. The answer to that question is NOT whether or not you, me, or anyone here wants to argue. The answer is NOT who is free or not to believe whatever they want. The answer is NOT who will find themselves talking to a wall. And the point of discussion is definitely NOT your personal satisfaction with a bad answer. Post #4 is wrong. It's creative, and may be personally edifying, but it has nothing to do with what is actually stated in Philippians 3:13. There is absolutely no need to mention ANY of that when addressing this op's point of inquiry.


The op's specified point of inquiry is, "I would value your input regarding the words 'henceforth we know no man according to the flesh,' within their context."

2 Philippians 3 is not the context of 2 Corinthians 5 .

The words ' ... ... henceforth know we no man after the flesh.'

I would value your input regarding these words, within their context.

I see that these words are used in other contexts elsewhere in Scripture, and so see that there is a journey to go on here, in regard to these words and their application. I look forward to hearing what you have found in regard to them, and perhaps examples given in regard to their outworking experientially.

I've already answered and addressed that inquiry in Posts #5 and 8, and then again with greater exposition in Post #10.

​

Philippians 3:13.

I don't focus on the past life, before Christ. I focus on learning to follow Jesus.​

Great. Don't focus on the unregenerate, Christ-denying sinner's past life. However, that is not what Philippians 3:13 actually states. What the verse states is,

Philippians 3:13
Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead....

That clause, "forgetting what lies behind" has nothing to do with the "henceforth " of 2 Cor. 2:14, and the reason we know that is because the unregenerate sinner is still solely of the flesh. His being solely of the flesh, however, does not dictate how the regenerate believer knows that man (or woman). We no longer know anyone after the flesh. The "no man" of 2 Corinthians 5:14 is not limited only to Christians. The verse does not state, "we henceforth know no Christian according to the flesh;" it says we henceforth know no man according to the flesh. Or, as the NAS puts it, "Therefore, from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh..." We no longer recognize the fleshly person of flesh and blood according to his or her flesh (past, present, or future).

Oh? Then by what do we know or recognize them?

Love. The love of Christ controls us.

2 Corinthians 5:16-19
Therefore, from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

• The love of God controls us
• Therefore, we don't know or recognize folks according to the flesh (theirs or ours).
• We know and recognize them through the reconciliation of Christ.
• For God has committed us to the word of reconciliation.

That is Paul's syllogism. The larger answer is, as I believe I posted previously, "The Spirit of God," for it is the Spirit that has changed us, made us regenerate, and by which we know, understand, and practice love. It is the Spirit by which we speak and demonstrate the ministry or word of reconciliation........ even though most people are still flesh and blood creatures living in their flesh in fleshly ways.

We do not know them that way.

That's how they know each other, but that's not how we know them. They are still stuck in what for us is a past life. They haven't left that life or that condition. They are still dead, dead in sin and completely fleshly. They are in need of reconciliation and that is how we know them. The unreconciled we know through the ministry of reconciliation (just as we have been reconciled) and the reconciled also are known through that very same reconciliation love of Christ.




It is, therefore, incorrect to render 2 Corinthians 2:14 by Philippians 3:13. Your statement, "I don't focus on the past life, before Christ. I focus on learning to follow Jesus," is a good and commendable one, but it has nothing to do with Philippians 3:13. Nothing in the entire chapter of Philippians 3 has anything to do with a Christian relating to all of humanity. That chapter is about maintaining one's own walk with Christ with integrity.

2 Corinthians 5:14 = maintaining the life in Christ with all men
Philippians 3:13 = maintaining the life in Christ with oneself.

We could, possibly, generalize the Philippians 3 text to apply to the Christian's relationship with other Christians, but not all men. Verse 17 and following preclude such an interpretation.

Philippians 3:17-21
Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

The "forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead," of verse 13 applies solely to Christians. The non-Christian has not left behind anything and the only thing lying ahead for them is destruction. If we were going to look at a completely different text to understand 2 Corinthians 5:14 then I would recommend Romans 13:8 or, better yet, Romans 12:9-21 (understanding the reference to Pr. 25:21-22 and Mt. 5:44 are about rekindling a person's warmth and sustenance, not shaming them).

.

 

[SteveB]

It's a simple question. The answer for which is already provided in the op.

i already answered.
if you're not actually paying attention, i can't help you.

No argument is necessary, expected, or required so I do not know why you think Post #14 is germane. The answer to that question is NOT "JoshebB." I am not the point of discussion no matter how many attempts are made to make it such. The answer to that question is NOT whether or not you, me, or anyone here wants to argue. The answer is NOT who is free or not to believe whatever they want. The answer is NOT who will find themselves talking to a wall. And the point of discussion is definitely NOT your personal satisfaction with a bad answer. Post #4 is wrong. It's creative, and may be personally edifying, but it has nothing to do with what is actually stated in Philippians 3:13. There is absolutely no need to mention ANY of that when addressing this op's point of inquiry.


The op's specified point of inquiry is, "I would value your input regarding the words 'henceforth we know no man according to the flesh,' within their context."

2 Philippians 3 is not the context of 2 Corinthians 5 .

I've already answered and addressed that inquiry in Posts #5 and 8, and then again with greater exposition in Post #10.

​

Great. Don't focus on the unregenerate, Christ-denying sinner's past life. However, that is not what Philippians 3:13 actually states. What the verse states is,

Philippians 3:13
Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead....

That clause, "forgetting what lies behind" has nothing to do with the "henceforth " of 2 Cor. 2:14, and the reason we know that is because the unregenerate sinner is still solely of the flesh. His being solely of the flesh, however, does not dictate how the regenerate believer knows that man (or woman). We no longer know anyone after the flesh. The "no man" of 2 Corinthians 5:14 is not limited only to Christians. The verse does not state, "we henceforth know no Christian according to the flesh;" it says we henceforth know no man according to the flesh. Or, as the NAS puts it, "Therefore, from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh..." We no longer recognize the fleshly person of flesh and blood according to his or her flesh (past, present, or future).

Oh? Then by what do we know or recognize them?

Love. The love of Christ controls us.

2 Corinthians 5:16-19
Therefore, from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

• The love of God controls us
• Therefore, we don't know or recognize folks according to the flesh (theirs or ours).
• We know and recognize them through the reconciliation of Christ.
• For God has committed us to the word of reconciliation.

That is Paul's syllogism. The larger answer is, as I believe I posted previously, "The Spirit of God," for it is the Spirit that has changed us, made us regenerate, and by which we know, understand, and practice love. It is the Spirit by which we speak and demonstrate the ministry or word of reconciliation........ even though most people are still flesh and blood creatures living in their flesh in fleshly ways.

We do not know them that way.

That's how they know each other, but that's not how we know them. They are still stuck in what for us is a past life. They haven't left that life or that condition. They are still dead, dead in sin and completely fleshly. They are in need of reconciliation and that is how we know them. The unreconciled we know through the ministry of reconciliation (just as we have been reconciled) and the reconciled also are known through that very same reconciliation love of Christ.




It is, therefore, incorrect to render 2 Corinthians 2:14 by Philippians 3:13. Your statement, "I don't focus on the past life, before Christ. I focus on learning to follow Jesus," is a good and commendable one, but it has nothing to do with Philippians 3:13. Nothing in the entire chapter of Philippians 3 has anything to do with a Christian relating to all of humanity. That chapter is about maintaining one's own walk with Christ with integrity.

2 Corinthians 5:14 = maintaining the life in Christ with all men
Philippians 3:13 = maintaining the life in Christ with oneself.

We could, possibly, generalize the Philippians 3 text to apply to the Christian's relationship with other Christians, but not all men. Verse 17 and following preclude such an interpretation.

Philippians 3:17-21
Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

The "forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead," of verse 13 applies solely to Christians. The non-Christian has not left behind anything and the only thing lying ahead for them is destruction. If we were going to look at a completely different text to understand 2 Corinthians 5:14 then I would recommend Romans 13:8 or, better yet, Romans 12:9-21 (understanding the reference to Pr. 25:21-22 and Mt. 5:44 are about rekindling a person's warmth and sustenance, not shaming them).

.

 

[Complete]

'Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom;
teaching and admonishing one another
in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,
singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.'
(Col. 3:16)

@JoshebB - replies #2,#3, #5, #8, #10, #12, & #15
@SteveB - replies, #4, #9, #11, #14, #16

Hello there,

Thank you for your input. I have followed your discussion, and have found it thought provoking, and revealing. It has been an object lesson in itself. There has been a great deal of sound teaching as well as admonishment delivered with grace. I would not have missed it this morning. May God give us grace to receive both within the love of Christ Jesus our risen and glorified, Saviour, Lord and Head.

Love to you both, for your time and consideration of the question in had.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Complete]

How about words?​

​

They come from the heart ...​

'Set a watch, O LORD, before my mouth;
keep the door of my lips.'
(Psa 141:3)

Re: reply#13 (above)

Hi there, @praise_yeshua

Oh boy! Yes, they certainly do, and can do a lot of damage, as well as good. My Mother underlined the verse above in her Bible, she obviously had seen the importance of a still tongue, for the heart we are told is deceitful and desperately wicked, who can know it?

'Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD,
and whose hope the LORD is.
For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters,
and that spreadeth out her roots by the river,
and shall not see when heat cometh,
but her leaf shall be green;
and shall not be careful in the year of drought,
neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:
who can know it?
I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins,
even to give every man according to his ways,
and according to the fruit of his doings.'
(Jer 17:7-10)

'Search me, O God, and know my heart:
try me, and know my thoughts:
And see if there be any wicked way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.'
(Psa 139:23-24)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Complete]

Christians to this day are more impressed by a person's knowledge, accomplishments, charisma, popularity, social importance, good looks, or wealth, than the purity of their heart for God. Paul himself said others saw him as unimpressive in the natural, and apparently, he may have even seen Christ during his life and been unimpressed by his appearance. To see God's approval and anointing we must look beyond the natural.

'But the LORD said unto Samuel,
Look not on his countenance,
or on the height of his stature;
because I have refused him:
for the LORD seeth not as man seeth;
for man looketh on the outward appearance,
but the LORD looketh on the heart.'
(1Sa 16:7)

Hi there @Dizerner,

I recently attended a prayer meeting held between mutual Christian friends, as a stranger, during which prayer was largely for the sick known by those attending: There was no prayer made for the spiritual well-being of those with whom they were acquainted. All was largely of the flesh, about what was visible to the eye, or heard of by the ear. Yet it is the spiritual well-being of each one of us who are, 'in Christ'. which is of more importance than our physical welfare, isn't it? For whether we live or die, we are the Lord's, and have the hope of life eternal, in resurrection, so our life is not for this life only.

So, I believe that though we know our fellow believers, or even our fellow man generally, in the flesh, it is their spiritual welfare which should matter more to us, than their physical welfare: and fellowship in Christ sought from them, and with them: even though a cwtch (or hug) is welcome, and a telephone call to enquire if help is needed a good idea before visiting, it is the listening ear, prayerful spirit and a mind within which the word of God dwells richly, that can bring a balm to the inner man, and strengthen the spirit, in Christ Jesus.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Complete]

@joshebB,
I'd been a convert to Christ more than 20 years when my next-younger brother came to Christ. One day while he was visiting, shortly after his conversion, I showed him my library and said he could borrow any book he likes whenever he likes. "No thank you." Now he reads a book and describes it with delight, and I share in his joy without telling him I read that book many years ago and he could have borrowed it from my library at any time. Those words would be factually true, but not profitable. It's quite possible for factual words from one person to obstruct God's work in another . I had to learn that. Those mistakes happen less frequently when we remember to know others more than just in the flesh.

Hello @JoshebB,

Your words in reply #2 (above) caught my eye and touched my heart, for I could identify with them. It is indeed possible for 'factual words from one person to obstruct God's work in another'. Unfortunately, as you say, we often have to learn such things by experience, either personally or indirectly through the mistake of another.

Thank you very much for all your contributions in this thread, for they are nourishment for the spirit.

In Christ Jesus
Chris