He that believes and is not water baptised is saved

[Doug Brents]

This is false! Not even close. If you want to discuss this with me ~ then I'm ready.

I appreciate your opinion on this. I would love to hear why you think it is false.

 

[Red Baker]

@Doug Brents

This is what it means in Scripture when it says that it is "not of works" in Eph 2:8-9. We had/have no influence on God offering Jesus as our redeeming sacrifice, nor do we have any influence on Him including every person who has ever, or will ever, live(d) as a potential recipient of His gift.

Doug, you said: "We had/have no influence on God offering Jesus as our redeeming sacrifice"
Doug, that's a given, and everyone from the Pope to the street preacher agrees with that statement, that's a no brainer, even my youngest grandson would say amen to statement, and he's going on eight, my oldest ones would say, who is this guy trying to deceive?

You added: "nor do we have any influence on Him including every person who has ever, or will ever, live(d) as a potential recipient of His gift."
First of all, even that statement is false, but staying with what you call is not of works, is a pitiful explanation of not of works, lest any man should boast. You must think God's children are dumb sheep, sheep we are, dumb we are not.

But this has absolutely no impact on the conditions specified in the will. In both of the cases above

Not interesting in your wordly storytelling above, as you labor to explain away a precious bible truth.

Again, this is what is described in Scripture. The Lord gave us conditions upon which we will inherit what He has left for us (Repentance, Confession of Jesus as Lord, Baptism, continuing in faithful belief to the end). If we meet those conditions then we will receive our inheritance. But if we do not meet those conditions then we will not receive the inheritance.

False! Doug, and @Jim , there are NO conditions for man in the flesh to "meet/do/keep" in order to receive the free gift of eternal life. Eternal life is given freely by God's grace on the behalf of what Jesus did to secured eternal life for us by his obedience and faithfulness, not our.

Ephesians 2:8​

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”

In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The only faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. "This faith is not of ourselves," it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.

When a man hears and believes, it is not the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God~this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.

I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

We were IN CHRIST from all eternity, even while he lived in this world and in his death and resurrection, which secured our redemption for us. What he did, it was as though we did it, what happen to Christ happened to us legally speaking two thousand years ago.

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug, you said: "We had/have no influence on God offering Jesus as our redeeming sacrifice"
Doug, that's a given, and everyone from the Pope to the street preacher agrees with that statement, that's a no brainer, even my youngest grandson would say amen to statement, and he's going on eight, my oldest ones would say, who is this guy trying to deceive?

Of course this is obvious, which is why I started here.

You added: "nor do we have any influence on Him including every person who has ever, or will ever, live(d) as a potential recipient of His gift."
First of all, even that statement is false,

So you are saying that mankind did have an influence on God offering salvation to all mankind? Or are you one of those who believe that God did not offer salvation to all mankind, but only to an "elect" few?

but staying with what you call is not of works, is a pitiful explanation of not of works, lest any man should boast. You must think God's children are dumb sheep, sheep we are, dumb we are not.

Sure we are sheep; Scripture calls us that many times. No, I don't believe mankind is dumb.

Not interesting in your wordly storytelling above, as you labor to explain away a precious bible truth.

So you don't believe that the New Testament/Covenant is the Will (as in 'last will and testament') of Jesus? He states clearly that it is in Heb 9:15-18.

False! Doug, and @Jim , there are NO conditions for man in the flesh to "meet/do/keep" in order to receive the free gift of eternal life. Eternal life is given freely by God's grace on the behalf of what Jesus did to secured eternal life for us by his obedience and faithfulness, not our.

LOL, You haven't read you Scripture very well if you believe that nonsense. Rom 10:9-10 states clearly that there is a condition for the reception of salvation: verbal confession of Jesus as Lord. That one verse puts the lie to your statement. If your belief were true, then the false doctrine of universalism would be truth. Because God desires that everyone be saved (1 Tim 2:4), yet we know from Jesus' own words that not everyone will be saved (Matt 7:13-14).

Ephesians 2:8​

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”

In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The only faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. "This faith is not of ourselves," it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.

There is so much in this statement that is wrong; where to begin! Just wow!

The word "that" in the phrase "that not of yourselves" is referring back to salvation, not faith, not grace. Both faith and grace are part of prepositional phrases. The only portion of the sentence that "that not of yourselves" could possibly refer to is "are ye saved", and it certainly does not refer to the verb "are", and clearly does not refer to "ye" (since it says "not of yourselves").
As we read in Rom 10, faith comes through hearing the Word of God (the Gospel). Faith is our response to God and His offering of salvation to us.

When a man hears and believes, it is not the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God~this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.

How pathetic. That completely contradicts Scripture. We are not saved by hearing the Word. If that were true, then every single person who heard the voice of Jesus (the Word) would have been saved. But that is clearly not the case with so many of the Pharisees and other religious leaders.

I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

We were IN CHRIST from all eternity, even while he lived in this world and in his death and resurrection, which secured our redemption for us. What he did, it was as though we did it, what happen to Christ happened to us legally speaking two thousand years ago.

Oh, now that's rich. We were saved, even when we were dead in sin? Seriously?
Red, you have completely gone off the deep end, and I have no desire to read any more of your blasphemous nonsense.

 

[dwight92070]

You have a really corrupt view of soteriology. One who has been saved strives to do the works of God. They are the fruits of the Spirit -

Dwight: It's the view of Hebrews 6:1: "... repentance from dead works and of faith toward God ..." and it is not corrupt.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

However, one can display such fruit and not be saved. One of my very good friends through the years, who is not with us any longer, was one of those who displayed so many of those fruits and yet was at best a deist who believed there was a God who created this universe but rejected any notion that God was active in any way with the creation. And while he exhibited more such fruit than most Christians that I have met or that I know, he rejected any the very basic concepts of the gospel in spite of all attempts to teach him and convert him.

Being sorry for things that one has done wrong does not bring salvation.

Dwight: I'm not denying that. That's why I said, "If a person repents BEFORE GOD (meaning a sincere sorrow for how their sins grieved Him), then he is acting in faith (in God through Jesus).

Faith begets repentance; repentance does not beget faith. Repentance may lead one to faith, but that is not an absolute.

Dwight: The Bible seems to always put repentance before faith. Heb. 6:1 Jesus said, "Repent and believe in the gospel." Mark 1:15 Esau seems to be sorry for what he lost, not for sinning against God. Hebrews 12:17 " ... he was rejected, though he sought for it with tears, for he found no place for repentance."

Just as an aside, one of the problems that faces Reformed Theology is just that very fact. Since election in the Calvinist theology is wholly and only of God having nothing whatsoever to do with the elect himself one can never be absolutely sure that he is one of the elect. In the early beginnings of Calvinism, people would try to keep a detailed record of their "good deeds", their fruits, hoping that such fruit would assure them that they were indeed one of the elect.

Dwight: This is just what I said earlier. Calvinists can never be sure that they are part of the chosen or the elect. They won't know until they die. However, Christians know that they are the chosen and the elect, because they are IN CHRIST by faith, and Christ IS THE CHOSEN ONE.

So no @dwight92070, repentance is not one and the same as salvation. Repentance is the act of the person; salvation is the act of God.

Dwight: I already said that using the word "synonymous" was probably the wrong word. But you can't have salvation without true sincere repentance before God, and you can't have true sincere repentance before God without it leading to salvation. That is my understanding of the Bible and I don't believe that is a corrupt understanding.

 

[Jim]

Dwight: I'm not denying that. That's why I said, "If a person repents BEFORE GOD (meaning a sincere sorrow for how their sins grieved Him), then he is acting in faith (in God through Jesus).

That doesn't mean that one of faith does not need to repent before God. Repenting is still a necessary condition.

Dwight: The Bible seems to always put repentance before faith. Heb. 6:1 Jesus said, "Repent and believe in the gospel." Mark 1:15 Esau seems to be sorry for what he lost, not for sinning against God. Hebrews 12:17 " ... he was rejected, though he sought for it with tears, for he found no place for repentance."

Not always. Acts 2:38 is speaking to those who have believed what Peter said about Jesus. They, those who believed, were told to repent. Throughout the bible, faith is presented as the preeminent condition; without faith, nothing else really matters. But that doesn't mean that faith is the only condition.

Dwight: This is just what I said earlier. Calvinists can never be sure that they are part of the chosen or the elect. They won't know until they die. However, Christians know that they are the chosen and the elect, because they are IN CHRIST by faith, and Christ IS THE CHOSEN ONE.

Then they, if they have only believed, are as delusional as you. The phrase "in Christ" is one of the most used expressions in the NT. The phrase "in Christ" appears over 80 times in the ESV, NASB, NKJV and NIV and it appears over 70 times in the KJV. But so far as I find, there are only a couple of those verses that describe how one actually becomes "in Christ". Galatians 3:27 is one. It says, "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ". Romans 6:3 also suggests how we become in Christ. It says, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" All the rest of the 80+ verses describe the benefits of being in Christ but not necessarily how one attains that position.

Dwight: I already said that using the word "synonymous" was probably the wrong word. But you can't have salvation without true sincere repentance before God, and you can't have true sincere repentance before God without it leading to salvation. That is my understanding of the Bible and I don't believe that is a corrupt understanding.

So you have just said there that repentance is a necessary condition placed upon the believer. I agree with that. Acts 2:38 states that quite clearly. It also states that baptism is also a necessary condition placed upon the believer as does Mark 16:16; Matthew 28-19-20; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3-4 and several other passages. Confession is another such condition, even though is is given only a couple of times.