Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".

atpollard said:
  • Ezekiel 36:25-27 [NKJV] "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do [them].
(Who will do? Man or God?)

What did Jesus say about it?

  • John 3:3, 5-8 [NKJV] 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." ... 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

… Jesus calls us to be born of the SPIRIT in order to enter His Kingdom, but you claim the FLESH holds the power to choose rebirth into a kingdom it cannot even SEE! That is Total Inability without the GRACE of God empowering us.
Click to expand...
Um the Spirit- the means by which we are born again is given to those of faith

Calvinism, to the contrary, holds that man is regenerated/made alive/born again so he can believe

Scripture refutes such a doctrine

Galatians 3:2 (LEB) — 2 I want only to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5 (LEB) — 5 Therefore does the one who gives you the Spirit and who works miracles among you do so by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ephesians 1:13 (LEB) — 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)

Galatians 3:14 (LEB) — 14 in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Showing faith precedes being born again

And Calvinism holds the grace needed is regeneration before he can believe

in contrast to scripture

which shows the word itself is a form of grace by which men can believe

Romans 10:17 (LEB) — 17 Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word about Christ.

John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

2 Timothy 3:15 (LEB) — 15 and that from childhood you have known the holy writings that are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NASB 95) — 13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

Romans 10:6–14 (NASB 95) — 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.” 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
 
brightfame52 said:
God made some as vessels of wrath and some as vessels of mercy.
Click to expand...
Alright.... lets say you are correct .

WHY?
What was the purpose of God making some vessels of wrath?
What was the purpose of making some who will suffer horribly for an eternity in the fires of hell?
When these people had zero choice in altering their outcome and no living person on earth could help them to over come their fait by teaching because God has made some as vessels of wrath.
You keep right on saying that it is true because it is in the bible.....
What makes you think that what you read in the bible is true.
Everyone reads or hears from atheists to the Pope.... John 3:16 , "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." WHOSOEVER IS INCLUSIVE OF EVERY SINGLE SOUL CREATED BY THE FATHER
And you know either what you say, or what John said here is all wrong because they are opposites. You do know who John is in the bible? He was "the disciple whom Jesus loved."

And if Jesus loved him so much this is said of him, likely it is because he told the truth.
 
brightfame52 said:
I'm correct Rom 9 is correct
Click to expand...
THEN QUIT SKIRTING THE ISSUE AND ANSWER THESE................


WHY?
What was the purpose of God making some vessels of wrath?
What was the purpose of making some who will suffer horribly for an eternity in the fires of hell?
When these people had zero choice in altering their outcome and no living person on earth could help them to over come their fait by teaching because God has made some as vessels of wrath.

You keep right on saying that it is true because it is in the bible.....
What makes you think that what you read in the bible is true?

Everyone reads or hears from atheists to the Pope.... John 3:16 , "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." WHOSOEVER IS INCLUSIVE OF EVERY SINGLE SOUL CREATED BY THE FATHER
And you know either what you say, or what John said here is all wrong because they are opposites. You do know who John is in the bible? He was "the disciple whom Jesus loved."

Then Paul is calling JOHN a liar... and so are you... correct? = The bible cannot be trusted according to @brightfame52
 
FreeInChrist said:
Alright.... lets say you are correct .

WHY?
What was the purpose of God making some vessels of wrath?
What was the purpose of making some who will suffer horribly for an eternity in the fires of hell?
When these people had zero choice in altering their outcome and no living person on earth could help them to over come their fait by teaching because God has made some as vessels of wrath.
You keep right on saying that it is true because it is in the bible.....
What makes you think that what you read in the bible is true.
Everyone reads or hears from atheists to the Pope.... John 3:16 , "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." WHOSOEVER IS INCLUSIVE OF EVERY SINGLE SOUL CREATED BY THE FATHER
And you know either what you say, or what John said here is all wrong because they are opposites. You do know who John is in the bible? He was "the disciple whom Jesus loved."

And if Jesus loved him so much this is said of him, likely it is because he told the truth.
Click to expand...
How does FREE WILL (even completely free will like Adam) change this?
Did God still not create them?
Did God not know they would be eternally damned? (omniscience)
So how is FREE WILL different?

To answer YOUR question (to the best of my limited ability):

Short Answer:
  • I don't know. God is smarter than I am and I just have to accept that He knows and understans both MORE and DIFFERENT than I do.
Longer Answer:
  • I know from Romans 1 and 3 that EVERYONE chooses sin and I reckon that is because we are somehow born broken. Like the children of a violent alcoholic, we start out life with a disadvantaged worldview that shapes our future choices. So we have a FREE WILL to choose, but we have a "bent" nature that inclines us all to choose wrong.
    • [John 3:18-20 NKJV] 18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
    • We all start out from a position of "not believe" which makes us starting out from a position of "condemned". Jesus said that the "condemnation" is WE LOVE DARKNESS and WE HATE THE LIGHT (God).
    • [Romans 1:18-21 NKJV] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown [it] to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
    • We (in our initial "not believe" state) are under the wrath of God. We exercise our FREE WILL to suppress the truth and we are without excuse. Our THOUGHTS have become FUTILE and our HEARTS have become DARKENED.
  • Our FREE WILL is tainted to be predisposed away from God.
    • [Romans 3:10-12 NKJV] 10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."
    • Our FREE WILL is SO predisposed away from God that if God did NOTHING but left us to our FREE WILL, then NOBODY would be saved.
  • That is unacceptable to God, so God does something:
    • [Romans 9:15-18 NKJV] 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
    • God chooses to show compassion on "whomever I will have mercy".
    • [Romans 9:19-24 NKJV] 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed [it], "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 [What] if God, wanting to show [His] wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
    • Not getting into the details of WHY (above my pay grade), but just noting that GOD does have a reason for both wrath and mercy. [ask HIM for a better explanation, I am content to just trust.]
    • [John 10:27-30 NKJV] 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of My Father's hand. 30 "I and [My] Father are one."
    • The Father gave US to the Son and the Son gave US eternal life. That is what God did about our natural FREE WILL propensity to run away from the LIGHT.
    • [John 6:44-45 NKJV] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
    • The Father teaches and draws US to the Son and the Son will raise US up. That is what God did about our natural FREE WILL propensity to run away from the LIGHT.
Unless you have a "whosoever" meter, then you are as clueless as I am about which people in the world still trapped under the condemnation of "not believed" (hiding from the Light) are "My sheep" are "whomever I will have compassion" are "learning of the Father" and being DRAWN to the Son ... so WE (you and I) might as well broadcast the "seed" as broadly as possible and allow "whosoever" to respond. [The "depart from me" vessels of wrath - Free Will or Predestined - will not respond in any case, but we are not "fishing" for them.]

(wow, is that a seriously mixed metaphor!) ;)
 
@FreeInChrist
FreeInChrist said:
WHY?
What was the purpose of God making some vessels of wrath?
Click to expand...
My plans got change, so I have a few minutes.

To answer your question I would say this: By choosing to create angels, and man, that within itself meant that none would continue in the state in which God created them UNLESS God prepared some to come unto a knowledge of Him by an election of grace. Also, we know, God was not under obligation to show mercy to any, by the fact that he did is of pure mercy.

Also, if God showed mercy to all, then we would have never known his wrath, and He is free to show his wrath if he chooses to do, and He did. Consider: even in God's wrath there is more mercy that is in our mercy to others! So, what does man have to complain about? As though he is a righteous judge in such matters.
FreeInChrist said:
What was the purpose of making some who will suffer horribly for an eternity in the fires of hell?
Click to expand...
First of all, there is no such doctrine taught in God's word. The wicked shall perish, per so many scriptures. John 3:16; Luke 13:3; 2nd Peter 3:9, etc. No man will suffer as long as God is God, that is against plain scriptures. The wages of sin is DEATH, period, not eternity suffering in hell fire.
FreeInChrist said:
When these people had zero choice in altering their outcome and no living person on earth could help them to over come their fait by teaching because God has made some as vessels of wrath.
Click to expand...
Wrong.........Sister, all had their perfect opportunity IN ADAM, their head and representative before God. God provided for all that perfect opportunity, and thereby, he is free of being charge of not giving man a chance to eternal life, we had that chance in Adam. Christ secured for God's elect what Adam could not do for his posterity! This is the true grace of God that so many reject.
 
brightfame52 said:
I'm correct Rom 9 is correct
Click to expand...
the context is the elect/chosen people of God- Israel, the Jews. They are both vessels of honor and dishonor because of their obedience and disobedience, not because of predestination. Jeremiah 18:1-23 makes that perfectly clear which is whom Paul is quoting regarding the Potter/clay.

You stand refuted once again with your " EISEGESIS " of Romans 9-11.

hope this helps !!!
 
civic said:
the context is the elect/chosen people of God- Israel, the Jews. They are both vessels of honor and dishonor because of their obedience and disobedience, not because of predestination. Jeremiah 18:1-23 makes that perfectly clear which is whom Paul is quoting regarding the Potter/clay.

You stand refuted once again with your " EISEGESIS " of Romans 9-11.

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
Romans 9:22-26 [NKJV]
22 [What] if God, wanting to show [His] wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved." 26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You [are] not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God."

[Romans 9, not just for Jews any more. ;) ]
 
atpollard said:
Romans 9:22-26 [NKJV]
22 [What] if God, wanting to show [His] wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved." 26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You [are] not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God."

[Romans 9, not just for Jews any more. ;) ]
Click to expand...
thats because of the Jews unbelief and rejection of their God and Messiah. :)
 
atpollard said:
How does FREE WILL (even completely free will like Adam) change this?
Did God still not create them?
Did God not know they would be eternally damned? (omniscience)
So how is FREE WILL different?

To answer YOUR question (to the best of my limited ability):

Short Answer:
  • I don't know. God is smarter than I am and I just have to accept that He knows and understans both MORE and DIFFERENT than I do.
Longer Answer:
  • I know from Romans 1 and 3 that EVERYONE chooses sin and I reckon that is because we are somehow born broken. Like the children of a violent alcoholic, we start out life with a disadvantaged worldview that shapes our future choices. So we have a FREE WILL to choose, but we have a "bent" nature that inclines us all to choose wrong.
    • [John 3:18-20 NKJV] 18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
    • We all start out from a position of "not believe" which makes us starting out from a position of "condemned". Jesus said that the "condemnation" is WE LOVE DARKNESS and WE HATE THE LIGHT (God).
    • [Romans 1:18-21 NKJV] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown [it] to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
    • We (in our initial "not believe" state) are under the wrath of God. We exercise our FREE WILL to suppress the truth and we are without excuse. Our THOUGHTS have become FUTILE and our HEARTS have become DARKENED.
  • Our FREE WILL is tainted to be predisposed away from God.
    • [Romans 3:10-12 NKJV] 10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."
    • Our FREE WILL is SO predisposed away from God that if God did NOTHING but left us to our FREE WILL, then NOBODY would be saved.
  • That is unacceptable to God, so God does something:
    • [Romans 9:15-18 NKJV] 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
    • God chooses to show compassion on "whomever I will have mercy".
    • [Romans 9:19-24 NKJV] 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed [it], "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 [What] if God, wanting to show [His] wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
    • Not getting into the details of WHY (above my pay grade), but just noting that GOD does have a reason for both wrath and mercy. [ask HIM for a better explanation, I am content to just trust.]
    • [John 10:27-30 NKJV] 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of My Father's hand. 30 "I and [My] Father are one."
    • The Father gave US to the Son and the Son gave US eternal life. That is what God did about our natural FREE WILL propensity to run away from the LIGHT.
    • [John 6:44-45 NKJV] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
    • The Father teaches and draws US to the Son and the Son will raise US up. That is what God did about our natural FREE WILL propensity to run away from the LIGHT.
Unless you have a "whosoever" meter, then you are as clueless as I am about which people in the world still trapped under the condemnation of "not believed" (hiding from the Light) are "My sheep" are "whomever I will have compassion" are "learning of the Father" and being DRAWN to the Son ... so WE (you and I) might as well broadcast the "seed" as broadly as possible and allow "whosoever" to respond. [The "depart from me" vessels of wrath - Free Will or Predestined - will not respond in any case, but we are not "fishing" for them.]

(wow, is that a seriously mixed metaphor!) ;)
Click to expand...
Answer the question.
WHY?
What was the purpose of God making some vessels of wrath?

You people wont because you cannot..... For if you were to truly think on this for half a moment it makes no sense.

i will not enter into the free will end of the discussion until someone answers
the question of why God makes some "deliberately" to suffer for an eternity.

Maybe it's not personal?????

Still does not suggest why, before a person is formed in the womb their eternity is decided?

WHY
 
FreeInChrist said:
Answer the question.
WHY?
What was the purpose of God making some vessels of wrath?
Click to expand...
I did (including scripture) ... you quoted it and ignored it.
  1. God made all PEOPLE.
  2. ALL people freely chose to reject SALVATION and GOD.
  3. GOD chose to save SOME people anyway.

Are you shaking your fist because "The way of the Lord is not fair." [Ezekiel 18:25,29; 33:17,20] that God created any people at all or because God is required to show mercy to everyone that hates Him?
 
atpollard said:
I did (including scripture) ... you quoted it and ignored it.
  1. God made all PEOPLE.
  2. ALL people freely chose to reject SALVATION and GOD.
  3. GOD chose to save SOME people anyway.

Are you shaking your fist because "The way of the Lord is not fair." [Ezekiel 18:25,29; 33:17,20] that God created any people at all or because God is required to show mercy to everyone that hates Him?
Click to expand...
yet we were all children of wrath just like the rest of them as stated in Ephesians 2. :)
 

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