Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".

There is no answer that makes sense at all except our pre-earth existence and fall leading to only sinners being sown into mankind, Matt 13:36-39. :)
ImCo: not naturally prone but enslaved to sin from a previous choice to rebel against GOD.
You’re just moving the question back in time. You’re not answering it! What causes all to sin without fail? Could it be that we are incapable of not sinning? That is an Ockham’s Razor solution to the question, but it still begs the question of ‘why we are incapable?’

Doug
 
We die because we are sinful OR Jesus was babbling like a fool to say that death is the wages for sin!!!
And we are sinful because of Adam. That’s why we sin, because we’re sinful in nature of our character.
We are sinners by our actions. Sinful and sinning are distinct categories.

Doug
 
Good, because as you can see it it indefensible that Adam's fall had anything to do with humans sin, death or suffering.

???? Adam’s sin has everything to do with human sin, death, and suffering…
But then you drop the ball on how mankind is born sinful as proven by their susceptibility to death and suffering, the consequences of being sinful, by demanding that this happens without any free will decision by the infant to rebel or any free will choice to be sinful in HIS sight at all!!
Nope, I picked up your fumble and returned it for a touchdown!

If a doctor has everyone in his town suddenly becoming unable to stop vomiting , and all of them are found to be drinking water from the same source, the doctor would think that all the sickness is due to a deficiency of a single source, the well! Adam is the well from which our nature drinks! Adam is why we are so sick that we cannot help but sin.

Doug
 
You’re just moving the question back in time. You’re not answering it! What causes all to sin without fail? Could it be that we are incapable of not sinning?
You missed the point. The fact is that we must have been created able to become HIS bride, right? No matter when? And no one is made liable to the consequences of another's sin so, before our earthly existence we must have chosen to be sinners as we all start as sinners IN our earthly existence. We must have had a time when we could and in fact did chose to be sinful and then ALL (ONLY) SINNERS were sent to earth...

The time of our choice to sin is not nearly as important as the fact that ONLY sinners are sown into mankind, the sinful people of the kingdom and the condemned people of the evil one Matt 13:36-39.
 
You missed the point. The fact is that we must have been created able to become HIS bride, right?
We were, Adam was made for and enjoyed daily fellowship with God, but chose to sin and threw man’s relationship with God in the trash! Chose a bite of ‘apple’ over the presence of God in the cool of the day!

But God’s love for his creation motivates God to redeem that which is unacceptable in his sight!
so, before our earthly existence we must have chosen to be sinners as we all start as sinners IN our earthly existence.
This is an unscriptural and ridiculous notion. We, do not exist prior to being conceived! There are not future babies that have existed and already chosen to sin in some cosmic waiting room waiting to be sent down to earth.

Adam was created from the dust of the earth, and Eve fashioned by God from Adam’s rib; everyone else came from egg and sperm united in sexual intimacy. We are created by the process of sexual intimacy that is also God’s creation. God is our creator by proxy, not directly as with Adam and Eve.
We must have had a time when we could and in fact did chose to be sinful and then ALL (ONLY) SINNERS were sent to earth...
Circular reasoning… my argument accounts for our reality too, even better than yours. Mine is scriptural! The Bible never says directly or infers that we existed and sinned prior to being conceived and born on earth.


Doug
 
A third of the angels fell too…

Doug
As you might imagine, I have something to say about this too, :)

Let pretend for a minute that only 1% of all creation followed Satan into abject destruction.

Now, let's look at the pertinent verses in Rev 12:
4 And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.
Then later we learn, 7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

First I point out that all these sinful people were FLUNG, THROWN DOWN to the earth. The word for flung or thrown down is balló: To throw, cast, put, place and is the same word used both verses 4 and 9, to fling down. Checking the commentaries on these verses I find that this throwing down involves some hostility, animosity and violence as you might assume when the holy Army of GOD threw Satan down to the earth but which we should look at more closely to the 1/3 of angels that Satan flung down in verse 4.

Why would Satan, just before the most important fight in his life when he needed them the most, hatefully and violently cast down so many sinful angels??? They must have been sinful or he would have no power over them and they would have been fighting with YHWH against him. So why reject them as fighters in his war???

No one has ever suggested a better idea than these sinful angels were the elect who fell into sinful rebellion over YHWH's contention that the Satanic reprobate must be banished to hell for the sake of HIS heavenly family...

Thus they were indeed sinful but they were no supporters of Satanism having put their free will faith (ie, pre-sin) in YHWH as their GOD and Saviour and as Jn 3:18 tells us, no believer is condemned for their sin, ie they fit the aspect of the elect.

SO, while we have 1/3 of the angels under satanic control for sinfulness we just might NOT have them as damned and joining him in hell!!!

Possibly as few as only 1% of creation is hell bound, NOT 1/3 of all of creation or even 1/3 of all of the angels !!!

So now you can speculate on how big or small the number of people in hell might be but at least over 1/3 of sinners will join us in the heavenly marriage!!!!

As to where on or in the earth we are while we wait for our time to be sown into mankind, there are fewer clues but we do have the teaching of Ps 9:17 Berean Standard Bible
The wicked will RETURN to Sheol—all the nations who forget God.
This tells us that the reprobate people of the evil one, Matt 13:36-39, RETURN to Sheol when they die as humans to where they were held before being sown into the earth into mankind. Other verses say believers join GOD in heaven at death without any reference to where they waited for their turn as men but this is quite clear about the reprobate.

And, for those who only read the kjv, their rendition of shuub as to turn aside into is the opposite of to return which is the only way shuub is used in the rest of the kjv references to this word.
 
And we are sinful because of Adam. That’s why we sin, because we’re sinful in nature of our character.
Ummm, don't you mean " That’s why we sin, because we’re sinful in nature of his character." Contrary to Ezek 18:20?
 
Nope, I picked up your fumble and returned it for a touchdown!
This metaphor is what you rely on to dis PCE ...? OK, it's all yours...
 
We were, Adam was made for and enjoyed daily fellowship with God, but chose to sin and threw man’s relationship with God in the trash!
I am not under / liable to / consequenced by the results of my father's sin!!!! Ezek 18:20.

Only by a personal free will decision to rebel against GOD can make anyone a sinner!!!
 
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This is an unscriptural and ridiculous notion. We, do not exist prior to being conceived!
This is an unscriptural and ridiculous notion. We, do not exist prior to being conceived! There are not future babies that have existed and already chosen to sin in some cosmic waiting room waiting to be sent down to earth.

Adam was created from the dust of the earth, and Eve fashioned by God from Adam’s rib;
Prove it! You just told us how Adam's and Eve's bodies were created - NOT how their spirits were created!!!

Prove they were not there witnessing the creation of the physical universe singing YHWH's praises Job 38:7, with the rest of ALL of the sons of GOD!! Prove there is no logical reason to interpret this verse this way!
 
The Bible never says directly or infers that we existed and sinned prior to being conceived and born on earth.
I have been challenging everyone on the forums for some 15 years that if they ever found any verse in the bible that even hinted against PCE as a possible theology, I would quit presenting it. I'm still heeerrrrre.....

Ok, I checked my notes and I have no scriptures that says when we became sinners who are condemned. All my scriptures are of the Hidden variety in which the meaning must be inferred from interpretation and context

You know what I mean because this is the way some of our favourite doctrines were not taught but were hidden for centuries:
- the Deity of the Messiah,
- the teaching that the OT was NOT the end of all scripture, (as per Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

- that God would incarnate as a man,
- that the Messiah would be an intermediary for prayer,
- nor any hint of Adamic sin before the NT.

[without even getting into the words for doctrine that we use that are not in scripture: Trinity, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, incarnation, rapture]

So, scriptural doctrine without having a precise scriptural reference is a time honoured procedure, and depends upon rightly dividing the word of truth aka the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

So, there you go...I have many scriptures about Adam being a sinner before Eve, a lot about a new revelation coming in the end days, about people talking about going back to somewhere else, about people knowing ALL the truth, and judgement postponed but no scriptures that says when we became sinners who are condemned, sorry.
 
Mine is scriptural! The Bible never says directly or infers that we existed and sinned prior to being conceived and born on earth.
Your scriptures are misinterpreted just as you ignore and misinterpret mine which infers that we existed and sinned prior to being conceived and born on earth. I at least quote mine whenever I should...
 
my argument accounts for our reality too, even better than yours. Mine is scriptural!
Yours indeed twists scripture to align with the current orthodoxy....
 
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