101G
Well-known member
please explain your position why? and 101G agree that evil was before the fall.
101G.
Does Creation and Evolution Fit Together?
- Thread starter Neil Spargo
- Start date
101G.
Eternally-Grateful
Active member
What position
Fact. Adam was created on day six with the rest of the land animals
Fact. Before adam signed, there was no death
Fact. The first death the earth ever witnessed was when God killed 2 innocent animals to cover the sin of Adam and Eve.
Fact. We can trace through the genealogy that the man has been on this earth less than 10,000 years
Since man was created on day 6. That puts the age of the earth less than 10,000 years.
There was no man before adam
There was no death before adam sinned.
So it is quite simple.
Old earth theology and evolution are totally debunked.
101G
Well-known member
first thanks for your reply. second how and why do you say Adam was created on day six? was he and the woman not made "Male" and "Female" on day 6 and was not Adam MADE on day 3?
Not saying that you're right or wrong, but 101G must disagree with you on your statement, "there was no death before adam sinned". in human correct, 101G agree there, but not Adam and Eve consumed fruits, nuts, ect, (see Genesis 1:29) for meat, or nourishment is this not a decay? and when the sun shined on day four, is this not also Decomposition called ENTROPY as with the fruits, nuts, and anything that changes? and 101G has taken in mind that matter is neither created nor destroyed but can or is changed. this is where Decomposition comes into play.... (maybe SIN problem?). but if the fruit, nuts...ect are EATEN, is this the not the existence of these NATURAL fruits and nuts in Time, and Space?
think about it first, and would like to hear your response.
101G.
and another POINT, did not Adam and Eve have children in the Garden before having Cain and Abel outside the garden in sin?
Eternally-Grateful
Active member
101G
Well-known member
Man being form on day 3? scripture, Genesis 2:4 "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens," Genesis 2:5 "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground." Genesis 2:6 "But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground." Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Before, the plants, Before, the herbs of the fields. and when was these things? answer, DAY 3, Genesis 1:11 "And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so." Genesis 1:12 "And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good." Genesis 1:13 "And the evening and the morning were the third day."
and also Adam was here before the Animals, both Land and Sea. scripture, Genesis 2:18 "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him." Genesis 2:19 "And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof." Notice, "every fowl of the air". so, when was EVERY fowl of the air made? answer day 5.
Genesis 1:20 "And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven." Genesis 1:21 "And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good." Genesis 1:22 "And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth." Genesis 1:23 "And the evening and the morning were the fifth day."
so, all the animals, both sea/water, and Land was made after Adam. for God brought them to him because he, Adam, was alone.
the children in the garden before Cain and Able? scripture, Genesis 3:16 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."
two terms here to notice.
#1. sorrow: H6093 עִצָּבוֹן `itstsabown (its-tsaw-ɓone') n-m.
worrisomeness, i.e. labor or pain.
[from H6087]
KJV: sorrow, toil.
Root(s): H6087
conception: H2032 הֵרוֹן herown (hay-rone') n-m.
הֵרָיוֹן herayown (hay-raw-yone')
pregnancy.
[from H2029]
KJV: conception.
Root(s): H2029
and to put it all together, "multiply". it's a scientific fact one cannot multiply or increase if it hasn't already happened. example for clarity. if 101G was sitting in a car no movement. 101G cannot INCREASE/MULTIPLY his speed until 101G first must be in Motion. then he can increase/multiply his speed. just as with Eve. one cannot increase/multiply pregnancy, or Labor pain unless she has already have had these things.
also, as said, HOW LONG IN THE GARDEN WAS SHE HAVING CHILDREN? the bible do not tell us.
101G.
Eternally-Grateful
Active member
There was not a man to till the ground. This is after th plants were formed.
multiply.
It started with 2. Adam and eve
Now multiply
Sorry. I do not see your evidence.
101G
Well-known member
keep reading, Genesis 2:6 "But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground."
that "but" makes the difference.
was not the Woman in the Man before she was brought out of the man? listen, Genesis 2:21 "And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;" (STOP AND THINK, did God get any other dust to make the Woman? no, he used existing dust in the form of the rib. she was inside the man from day 3). Genesis 2:22 "And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man." Genesis 2:23 "And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."
where did she come from? "because she was taken out of Man." God didn't scoop up more dust to form the woman, she was IN the Man. and when he brought the woman forth, then God made them .... not him, but them "Male" and "Female". supportive scripture, Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
here God "CREATED" and not Formed, but "CREATED" what? the Genders, male and Female.
101G
101G
Well-known member
did you not understand the example 101G gave? an object must first be in motion in order to INCREASE/MULTIPY it's speed. that's a scientific fact. so, in order to increase any pregnancy and labor pains, she first must have to had been pregnant already and having children's ... WITHOUT LABOR PAINS in order for God to INCREASE THEM. .... now in sin. before, she was having children without or little pain.
101G.
Dizerner
Well-known member
I would call that a "non sequitur," I do not think your point logically follows.
Dizerner
Well-known member
Adam and Eve were in Paradise, this is representative of the idyllic state, what in the common English vernacular today we call "heaven."
Under the current laws of physics that dictate matter and energy, an idyllic state is not physically possible, corruption is inherent.
Studying the remnants of history, deducing the past from the currently observed world, we see no place where the laws of physics have changed.
What this means, is that Adam and Eve logically had to come before the so-called Big Bang, or initial expansion event of the universe.
I recognize and realize this raises a host of questions in how to harmonize the text, but this is where the evidence leads, so where I start.
Eternally-Grateful
Active member
It depends on context
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
It is an extremely interesting proposition with a lot of internal coherence.
I agree with you that every "model" we build to reconcile faith and science will raise a further questions, and tough ones, but can serve as an starting point.
Let me share with you my "model" and then the Mormon model. When I say "my model" I refer to a personal interpretation of the Baha'i model.
(Before I do it, let me be clear: to me, upholding one or other model has nothing to do with our salvation. We are not saved because we are witty enough to think out how to reconcile science and certain sacred texts. All I can say is that our interest to reconcile science and Scripture seems to derive from our appreciation to both. So, it is a good thing in principle.)
I think that the physical reality we find around, with all the apparent cruelty and beauty you have properly remarked, and its evolutionary nature, is not a punishment for sins, but a scenario, a playground, a uterus, a simulator (so to speak) for us to be able to seek and find God. An scenario to exert free will to sin, repent from sin, and learn.
To me, seeing the contingent world as bad is more a Gnostic view. Earthquakes destroy cities and some people are born blind because that is part of a corrupted state of things.
In contrast, seeing the contingent world as a scenario to develop our spirit leads us to thank an praise God for the world we live as it is.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Under the Mormon model, mean are created first in a heavenly realm, as "spiritual children" of God, and then put in a contingent world to develop spiritually... to experience sin, pain, repentance, salvation.
I thought in the Mormon model when I read your post of Adam being created first in a heavenly realm, before the contingent, imperfect, corrupt, evolutionary world or universe. Mormons add that Adam made our existence in this contingent world possible by committing sin. That sin was part of God's plan and that, in fact, in the overall picture it was a good thing.
Mormon model also has a pretty strong internal coherence. I believed that model during 6 years approximately, as I was a LDS for a short period of my life.
I thought in the Mormon model when I read your post of Adam being created first in a heavenly realm, before the contingent, imperfect, corrupt, evolutionary world or universe. Mormons add that Adam made our existence in this contingent world possible by committing sin. That sin was part of God's plan and that, in fact, in the overall picture it was a good thing.
Mormon model also has a pretty strong internal coherence. I believed that model during 6 years approximately, as I was a LDS for a short period of my life.
Dizerner
Well-known member
There are some major differences with Mormonism, here.
Mormons believe God was once a man, and we all becomes Gods that then get our own universes.
They do withhold this belief from the lower peons, so I don't know if you were exposed to it.
Needless to say, one human man introducing sin and corruption into the entire world whereby we trust in God becoming one of us to suffer for our sins so that we can forever glorify and worship God as God (not become our own "gods), does not match the Mormon model.
I think a comparison at that point would be disingenuous, and if pressed, even patently dishonest.
I have spent considerable time debating a devout Mormon and showing him his trust in his own righteous moralism instead of grace.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Yes, I was exposed to it.
Certainly there are a lot of differences.
What I wanted to stress is the coincidence in the conception of a heavenly realm distinct and preexisting in relation to the earthly realm.
My friend: I am a person constantly looking for shared patterns, for coincidences. I already know that divergences exist.
That is part of the Baha'i mindset.
It is not intended to make you or Mormons feel uncomfortable.
