Children are innocent, not guilty of any sin

[brightfame52]

yet human Free Will remains intact because the immediate 'cause' of the act is the agent, not a pre-determined script.

Its both, God authored the script as an human author does the characters in his or her novel God authored evil characters in His novel, He predetermined their evil actions, like for instance, a serial killer, He authored the serial killer made freewill decisions to murder his victims, yet the auhor isnt evil for doing that, but the serial killer He wrote in the script is.

 

[FreeInChrist]

No? Why not?

I don’t agree with your definition of free will, and here’s why.

You’re defining “free” as simply not being forced or coerced. But that doesn’t really deal with whether a person could have chosen differently.

If God determines the desires, then the choice follows from those desires. That means the outcome couldn’t have been otherwise. So even if it feels like a free choice, it’s still fixed.

That’s why I brought up the Stepford Wives idea. The responses look real, but they’re ultimately determined.

On aseity, I don’t see how God is dependent on our choices to know anything. Knowing something doesn’t mean being caused by it. If God is outside of time and knows all things as a single, eternal reality, then He isn’t waiting on our decisions to “find out” what happens.

So I still see a real difference between God determining what I choose and God knowing what I freely choose.

And with Judas, if what he did was determined in such a way that he could not have done otherwise, then I don’t see how calling that “free” really means anything beyond how it feels.

So no, I don’t agree with your definition, because it doesn’t address whether any real alternative was possible.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Its both, God authored the script as an human author does the characters in his or her novel God authored evil characters in His novel, He predetermined their evil actions, like for instance, a serial killer, He authored the serial killer made freewill decisions to murder his victims, yet the auhor isnt evil for doing that, but the serial killer He wrote in the script is.

So in your view, God intentionally creates people as evil characters, determines their actions , including things like murder.....and then holds them morally responsible for doing exactly what He authored them to do?

I’m trying to understand how that differs, in any meaningful sense, from God being the source of the evil itself.

In your analogy, a human author isn’t morally responsible because the characters aren’t real. But in your view, these are real people experiencing real suffering and facing real judgment.

So how is God not morally implicated if He determines both the character and the actions?

That doesn’t sound like justice or love to me it sounds like responsibility being assigned to the character while the author determines everything.

 

[brightfame52]

So in your view, God intentionally creates people as evil characters, determines their actions , including things like murder.....and then holds them morally responsible for doing exactly what He authored them to do?

Yes, God intentionally created sinners, and He determined their sins they would commit. He intentionally made all the people who were morally responsible for the murder of Jesus Christ, and held them accountable for it, even as they only did what He determined beforehand they should do Acts 2:23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts 4:27-28

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
And His death by them is murder Acts 7:52

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Now Jesus Death/Murder is more despicable in the eyes of God than any rape, child molestation, or any other despicable sin.