Children are innocent, not guilty of any sin

[brightfame52]

yet human Free Will remains intact because the immediate 'cause' of the act is the agent, not a pre-determined script.

Its both, God authored the script as an human author does the characters in his or her novel God authored evil characters in His novel, He predetermined their evil actions, like for instance, a serial killer, He authored the serial killer made freewill decisions to murder his victims, yet the auhor isnt evil for doing that, but the serial killer He wrote in the script is.

 

[FreeInChrist]

No? Why not?

I don’t agree with your definition of free will, and here’s why.

You’re defining “free” as simply not being forced or coerced. But that doesn’t really deal with whether a person could have chosen differently.

If God determines the desires, then the choice follows from those desires. That means the outcome couldn’t have been otherwise. So even if it feels like a free choice, it’s still fixed.

That’s why I brought up the Stepford Wives idea. The responses look real, but they’re ultimately determined.

On aseity, I don’t see how God is dependent on our choices to know anything. Knowing something doesn’t mean being caused by it. If God is outside of time and knows all things as a single, eternal reality, then He isn’t waiting on our decisions to “find out” what happens.

So I still see a real difference between God determining what I choose and God knowing what I freely choose.

And with Judas, if what he did was determined in such a way that he could not have done otherwise, then I don’t see how calling that “free” really means anything beyond how it feels.

So no, I don’t agree with your definition, because it doesn’t address whether any real alternative was possible.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Its both, God authored the script as an human author does the characters in his or her novel God authored evil characters in His novel, He predetermined their evil actions, like for instance, a serial killer, He authored the serial killer made freewill decisions to murder his victims, yet the auhor isnt evil for doing that, but the serial killer He wrote in the script is.

So in your view, God intentionally creates people as evil characters, determines their actions , including things like murder.....and then holds them morally responsible for doing exactly what He authored them to do?

I’m trying to understand how that differs, in any meaningful sense, from God being the source of the evil itself.

In your analogy, a human author isn’t morally responsible because the characters aren’t real. But in your view, these are real people experiencing real suffering and facing real judgment.

So how is God not morally implicated if He determines both the character and the actions?

That doesn’t sound like justice or love to me it sounds like responsibility being assigned to the character while the author determines everything.

 

[brightfame52]

So in your view, God intentionally creates people as evil characters, determines their actions , including things like murder.....and then holds them morally responsible for doing exactly what He authored them to do?

Yes, God intentionally created sinners, and He determined their sins they would commit. He intentionally made all the people who were morally responsible for the murder of Jesus Christ, and held them accountable for it, even as they only did what He determined beforehand they should do Acts 2:23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts 4:27-28

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
And His death by them is murder Acts 7:52

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Now Jesus Death/Murder is more despicable in the eyes of God than any rape, child molestation, or any other despicable sin.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Yes, God intentionally created sinners, and He determined their sins they would commit. He intentionally made all the people who were morally responsible for the murder of Jesus Christ, and held them accountable for it, even as they only did what He determined beforehand they should do Acts 2:23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts 4:27-28

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
And His death by them is murder Acts 7:52

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Now Jesus Death/Murder is more despicable in the eyes of God than any rape, child molestation, or any other despicable sin.

If God determined beforehand that they would do exactly what they did, then in what meaningful sense is their act “despicable”? You’re calling morally evil what you also say God specifically ordained.

At that point, the action isn’t truly theirs in any meaningful sense it is the outworking of what God determined. And if that’s the case, holding them morally accountable for doing what they could not avoid creates a real tension.

I’m also struggling to reconcile that with “God is love,” because this view has God determining even the worst acts and then judging people for carrying them out. That begins to look less like justice and more like assigning guilt for what was unavoidable by design.

And taken consistently, it raises another question ..... why are some brought into a system where they must fulfill determined sinful roles and be judged for them, while others never even enter that experience at all?

I know you’re trying to uphold God’s sovereignty but this starts to sound less like Scripture and more like a system where everything is scripted and then judged anyway.

 

[FreeInChrist]

So if its Gods will to save you, but its the persons will not to be saved, didnt the persons will override Gods will ? Is it God relinquished His Sovereign will to the will of man His creature ?

No! You’re framing it as if God is being overruled, but that only works if you assume God’s will is a single-layer force that always gets the same kind of outcome.

If God sovereignly chose to create a world where human response is real, then a person rejecting Him isn’t overriding God it is doing exactly what God allowed within His sovereign design.

So the real question isn’t “Did man override God?”
It is, Did God intend to save that person in a way that bypasses their will~ or in a way that includes their response?

You’re assuming the first. I’m saying Scripture supports the second.

If God decreed that every individual must be irresistibly saved, then yes ..... rejection would be impossible. But since people clearly do resist, the better conclusion is not that God lost control, but that His sovereign will includes permitting genuine rejection.

Otherwise, your view creates a bigger problem,
God determines the rejection, then punishes the person for doing exactly what He determined, which collapses moral responsibility.

So no.....man doesn’t override God.
Man responds (rightly or wrongly) within the sovereign framework God chose to create.

 

[Diserner]

I would also add you do not control the circumstances you find yourself in. God is sovereign over any and all circumstances.

That's irrelevant.

Whatever choices I do not have actual options in, my will is not free in regards to that.

Period.

 

[brightfame52]

If God determined beforehand that they would do exactly what they did, then in what meaningful sense is their act “despicable”? You’re calling morally evil what you also say God specifically ordained.

I gave you scripture and this is your response

 

[civic]

If God determined beforehand that they would do exactly what they did, then in what meaningful sense is their act “despicable”? You’re calling morally evil what you also say God specifically ordained.

At that point, the action isn’t truly theirs in any meaningful sense it is the outworking of what God determined. And if that’s the case, holding them morally accountable for doing what they could not avoid creates a real tension.

I’m also struggling to reconcile that with “God is love,” because this view has God determining even the worst acts and then judging people for carrying them out. That begins to look less like justice and more like assigning guilt for what was unavoidable by design.

And taken consistently, it raises another question ..... why are some brought into a system where they must fulfill determined sinful roles and be judged for them, while others never even enter that experience at all?

I know you’re trying to uphold God’s sovereignty but this starts to sound less like Scripture and more like a system where everything is scripted and then judged anyway.

Ditto

 

[brightfame52]

No!

Yes it is. If God wills one outcome and the person wills against with their will, then their will overcame Gods will, their will won

 

[brightfame52]

That's irrelevant.

Whatever choices I do not have actual options in, my will is not free in regards to that.

Period.

Thats because our will isnt free from Gods Sovereign control over us and our will, learn wisdom from James 4:13-16

13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:

14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

So your will to do something is dependent upon if its Gods will for you to do it, you understand ?

 

[FreeInChrist]

Because your scripture does not support your contention.

I’m not ignoring the scripture, you’re adding something to it that the text itself doesn’t say.

Those passages say God foreknew and purposed that Christ would be crucified. They do not say God caused or morally authored the evil intentions of the people who did it.

In fact, the same verses hold both truths together: God ordained that Christ would be delivered up, and the people who crucified Him did so with “wicked hands.” If their actions were something God made them do, then calling their hands “wicked” becomes meaningless.

Here’s the issue I’m raising: if God determined the very sins themselves—the hatred, betrayal, and murder—then in what meaningful sense are those actions morally evil? You’re calling something “wicked” that you also say God specifically determined they would do. That doesn’t just create mystery....... it collapses moral responsibility altogether.

The text doesn’t force that conclusion. It actually preserves both truths without confusion: God sovereignly planned redemption through Christ’s death, and the people who carried it out acted freely and wickedly. It never says God caused their evil desires, only that He used their actions to accomplish His purpose.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Yes it is. If God wills one outcome and the person wills against with their will, then their will overcame Gods will, their will won

You’re assuming that if God allows something, it must be because He willed it in the same way He wills righteousness. But scripture does not treat those as the same thing.

God does not will sin in the sense of desiring or approving it.....He commands against it. Yet He allows people to act against His commands and holds them responsible when they do.

So no, a person’s will doesn’t “overcome” God’s will. It means God, in His sovereignty, chose to allow real human choices rather than forcing obedience.

Otherwise, you’re left saying God wills both righteousness and the very evil He condemns in exactly the same way which is the contradiction I’ve been pointing out.

If every sinful act is something God specifically determined a person to do, then disobedience isn’t really disobedience - it’s just people doing exactly what God willed them to do.