Anti-trinitarianism Campaign

[Runningman]

​

1. Genesis 1:26​

Hebrew:
וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים נַעֲשֶׂה אָדָם בְּצַלְמֵנוּ כִּדְמוּתֵנוּ
Translation:
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.”
Note: Plural verb נַעֲשֶׂה (na'aseh, "let us make") and plural pronouns.

You're proving my point. Look at Genesis 1:27. God is singular.

Genesis 1
27So God created man in His own image;
in the image of God He created him;
male and female He created them.

2. Genesis 3:22​

Hebrew:
הֵן הָאָדָם הָיָה כְּאַחַד מִמֶּנּוּ
Translation:
“Behold, the man has become like one of us.”
Note: Plural pronoun מִמֶּנּוּ (mimmenu, “of us”).

Same thing here. God is singular immediately after that.

Genesis 3
24So He drove out the man and stationed cherubim on the east side of the Garden of Eden, along with a whirling sword of flame to guard the way to the tree of life.

3. Genesis 11:7​

Hebrew:
הָבָה נֵרְדָה וְנָבְלָה שָׁם שְׂפָתָם
Translation:
“Come, let us go down and confuse their language.”
Note: Plural verb נֵרְדָה (nerdah, “let us go down”).

The LORD is singular in this passage.

4. Isaiah 6:8​

Hebrew:
אֶת־מִי אֶשְׁלַח וּמִי יֵלֶךְ לָנוּ
Translation:
“Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?”
Note: Plural pronoun לָנוּ (lanu, “for us”).

Isaiah 6:9
9And He replied...

Any other tries?

 

[DavidTree]

You're proving my point. Look at Genesis 1:27. God is singular.

Genesis 1
27So God created man in His own image;
in the image of God He created him;
male and female He created them.


Same thing here. God is singular immediately after that.

Genesis 3
24So He drove out the man and stationed cherubim on the east side of the Garden of Eden, along with a whirling sword of flame to guard the way to the tree of life.

The LORD is singular in this passage.


Isaiah 6:9
9And He replied...

Any other tries?

the 'HE' is the Word that was God

'HE' is the One who spoke in the OT and the NT = John 5:37

But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.
And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me.
You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.
You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

 

[Runningman]

the 'HE' is the Word that was God

'HE' is the One who spoke in the OT and the NT = John 5:37

But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.
And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me.
You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.
You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Sorry, you aren't getting it. There is no "the Word who was with God" in the beginning in Genesis. I would be glad to tell you what the Word is all about if you want to know. Start with 1John 1:1-3 where John referred to the Word as a thing. You'll be closer to understanding how the word of God is personified in Hebrew poetry and not actually a person. Psalm 33:6; Psalm 107:20; Psalm 147:15; Isaiah 55:10-11. Same thing in the New Testament, Jesus and the word of God are often distinct from one another in numerous places.

 

[DavidTree]

Sorry, you aren't getting it. There is no "the Word who was with God" in the beginning in Genesis. I would be glad to tell you what the Word is all about if you want to know. Start with 1John 1:1-3 where John referred to the Word as a thing. You'll be closer to understanding how the word of God is personified in Hebrew poetry and not actually a person. Psalm 33:6; Psalm 107:20; Psalm 147:15; Isaiah 55:10-11. Same thing in the New Testament, Jesus and the word of God are often distinct from one another in numerous places.

there is no "thing" in ELOHIM

"thing" and "it" came about from a heart of unbelief guided by the spirit of error = 1 John 4:1-6

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

They are of the world = Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them.

We are of God.
He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us.
By this we know the Spirit of Truth and the spirit of error.

 

[Runningman]

there is no "thing" in ELOHIM

Now you're catching on. God is not a thing, but John calls the Word a thing. God is not a that, which, this, what, or it.

1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[DavidTree]

Now you're catching on. God is not a thing, but John calls the Word a thing. God is not a that, which, this, what, or it.

1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ.

Who was that?

John said in his gospel the Word was God and "HE was with God" and the Word became flesh = "HE"
You cannot backpedal over John chapter 1 with 1 John chapter 1 because the Apostle John wrote it, not you

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.

This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Humans are not a "it"
A "it" cannot breath, speak, be man and have BLOOD

 

[Runningman]

Who was that?

John said in his gospel the Word was God and "HE was with God" and the Word became flesh = "HE"
You cannot backpedal over John chapter 1 with 1 John chapter 1 because the Apostle John wrote it, not you

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.

This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Humans are not a "it"
A "it" cannot breath, speak, be man and have BLOOD

Yes, I am aware, but proper exegesis never uses the minority idea to represent the majority. The Word is called a he in John 1 in most versions, yes, but never again in all of Scripture. Therefore, John 1's Word=he is a minority position. It is the majority position that the Word is a thing in the Bible. Everywhere else the Word or Logos of God is mentioned elsewhere, it's never a person. John 1 is personification of the Word and it isn't literally The God. (see the Greek on John 1:1)

 

[Dizerner]

Any other tries?

There's also four clear plural uses here.

They are not singular.

 

[DavidTree]

Yes, I am aware, but proper exegesis never uses the minority idea to represent the majority. The Word is called a he in John 1 in most versions, yes, but never again in all of Scripture. Therefore, John 1's Word=he is a minority position. It is the majority position that the Word is a thing in the Bible. Everywhere else the Word or Logos of God is mentioned elsewhere, it's never a person. John 1 is personification of the Word and it isn't literally The God. (see the Greek on John 1:1)

The Word is called a he in John 1 in most versions, yes, but never again in all of Scripture.

Sure it is = all thru the Gospel

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”

And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

 

[synergy]

i'm looking at a different part of your post this time ...
I don't actually have any Messianic Jew groups in mind. I just notice there are probably these non-Jews among Christians who feel some attraction or benefit to using Jewish names and language as if that made their life more accurate. It actually is a step backwards, especially seen with this anti-Trinitarian campaign. It is as if they think they have to drop knowledge of Christ's divinity despite the fact of Jewish discussion on the two powers in heaven happening around the first century. The attraction to Jewish culture happens despite the scriptures showing how the Israel people kept falling away from God and hence the need for the Messiah.

Yes, all unitarians, regardless of their backgrounds or persuasions, are all guilty of Judaizing when it comes to the truths of the Trinity.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, all unitarians, regardless of their backgrounds or persuasions, are all guilty of Judaizing when it comes to the truths of the Trinity.

Didn't you try to convert me to Islam and @mikesw recently tried to convert me to Scientology? You all are an interesting bunch for sure.

 

[synergy]

Didn't you try to convert me to Islam and @mikesw recently tried to convert me to Scientology? You all are an interesting bunch for sure.

We haven't heard from you for a while. Welcome back. Are you still holding on to the Judaizing principles of unitarianism?

 

[civic]

I mostly agree. There is not a problem for people saying they are not sure of the triune concept of God. But the general idea should to accept these central doctrines -- not just questioning everything taught without going deeper into study of it. Even one's own examination can be questionable. That does not create a problem either. The problem is with groups who are espousing a contrary doctrine without a solid, convincing argument of their novel ideas. Especially the problem is with those not merely following a misconception but who go on to promote it.
One concept I have held is that true believers in Christ can have wrong doctrines but, when given the chance, will tend toward truer doctrines. We hear the voice of our Shepherd calling us there. This is a general concept and the results in individual believers may vary.

What I find astounding/unbelievable is that I had to start a thread called the Eternal Son since there are a few so called Trinitarians on the forum questioning that God is Eternal as Father, Son, Holy Spirit. I believe I even tagged you in this thread along with some other Trinitarians posting in this thread.

 

[Runningman]

We haven't heard from you for a while. Welcome back. Are you still holding on to the Judaizing principles of unitarianism?

Oddly worded question. You think Christians are Judaizers?

 

[synergy]

Oddly worded question. You think Christians are Judaizers?

Nope. Unitarians are Judaizers. They are blind to the multiple OT Theophanies and to many NT verses, especially John 1:1.

 

[Runningman]

Nope. Unitarians are Judaizers. They are blind to the multiple OT Theophanies and to many NT verses, especially John 1:1.

I am not a Judaizer, I am a Christian. I am also not a Muslim or a Scientologist.

No need to waste your time attempting to prove Jesus was in any Old Testament theophanies. Already seen your kind try to shoehorn it in. It'll result in you not being able to find Jesus, the Son, the Word, etc anywhere in the Old Testament saying or doing anything.

Next.

 

[DavidTree]

Yes, I am aware, but proper exegesis never uses the minority idea to represent the majority. The Word is called a he in John 1 in most versions, yes, but never again in all of Scripture. Therefore, John 1's Word=he is a minority position. It is the majority position that the Word is a thing in the Bible. Everywhere else the Word or Logos of God is mentioned elsewhere, it's never a person. John 1 is personification of the Word and it isn't literally The God. (see the Greek on John 1:1)

Yes, I am aware, but proper exegesis never uses the minority idea to represent the majority

Maybe re-think this = according to Scripture

God Says that only THREE is to whom the Salvation of the entire world RESTS on = LORD Jesus Christ

God also Says that from the THREE only ONE is able to Save us and wash away our sins and grant the Holy Spirit.

Acts 4:8-12

Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people! If we are being examined today about a kind service to a man who was lame, to determine how he was healed, then let this be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.
This Jesus is
‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’
Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

 

[Runningman]

Maybe re-think this = according to Scripture

God Says that only THREE is to whom the Salvation of the entire world RESTS on = LORD Jesus Christ

God also Says that from the THREE only ONE is able to Save us and wash away our sins and grant the Holy Spirit.

Acts 4:8-12

Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people! If we are being examined today about a kind service to a man who was lame, to determine how he was healed, then let this be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.
This Jesus is
‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’
Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

But not because Jesus is God, but rather because God made (manufactured, contructed) Jesus Lord and Christ. God made Jesus the Savior and exalted him as such. I would also add that God has made many different humans in the Bible a savior, but God is Jesus' Savior.

God made (manufactured, contructed) Jesus as Lord and Christ:

Acts 2​

36Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”​

Jesus exalted as Prince and Savior (did you notice it doesn't say King?):

Acts 5​

31God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.​

God is Jesus' Savior:

Hebrews 5​

7During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence.​

God made many other saviors:

​

Othniel - Judges 3:9​

Ehud - Judges 3:15​

Judges - 2Kings 13:5​

Various saviors - Nehemiah 9:27​

Moses - Acts 7:35​

Jesus - Acts 2:36​

 

[synergy]

I am not a Judaizer, I am a Christian. I am also not a Muslim or a Scientologist.

Whoever denies that Jesus is God is by definition a Judaizer.

No need to waste your time attempting to prove Jesus was in any Old Testament theophanies. Already seen your kind try to shoehorn it in. It'll result in you not being able to find Jesus, the Son, the Word, etc anywhere in the Old Testament saying or doing anything.

Next.

You need to crack open your OT.

1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3 clearly show that the Pre-Incarnate Word of God was a Communicative Person who had all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...).

• 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
• 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,

This obviously proves that the Word of God (Jesus), who is Uncreated (John 1:3), cannot possibly be just a figure or just a thought. He is God.

 

[Runningman]

Whoever denies that Jesus is God is by definition a Judaizer.

Nonsense.

You need to crack open your OT.

1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3 clearly show that the Pre-Incarnate Word of God was a Communicative Person who had all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...).

• 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
• 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,

This obviously proves that the Word of God (Jesus), who is Uncreated (John 1:3), cannot possibly be just a figure or just a thought. He is God.

That means God spoke to them. It doesn't refer to a pre-existent being known as the Word coming to them and talking. You won't find a commentator on earth who agrees with your fringe opinion.