A Little Salvation story.
- Thread starter Behold
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GodsGrace
Well-known member
Is the Church of Christ the Iglesia Ni Cristo?
If so, it's a cult.
The NT does tie baptism into salvation...
but not meaning that if one does not get baptized he will not be saved.
Jesus said to get baptized..as did other writers.
In the OT persons were circumcized in order to be defined as Hebrew....(Abraham)
In the NT, we're taught that we need to be baptized but the reason is not absolutely clear to me and I won't pretend to know something I do not.
But it is important, for whatever reason.
So we are to just do it.
I DO know Catholic doctrine so I'll explain that.
They teach that a person must get baptized.
What if they die and are not baptized?
Then they are still covered by the DESIRE of baptism.
As long as they're not obstinate about NOT being baptized...
it can be assumed that eventually they would have been.
What I think @Behold is doing is watering down the importance of baptism.
This is as incorrect as teaching that one cannot go to heaven UNLESS they are baptized.
I don't know the doctrine of the Chruch of Christ so I can't comment.
If YOU do..it would be interesting to know.
mailmandan
Well-known member
Speaking of the church of Christ. When I was a teenager, I had temporarily attended the church of Christ and they taught me that ONLY "their" church is the "true Church," and they quoted Romans 16:16 (the churches of Christ greet you) to try and support their claim. Such a silly argument. I could easily quote, "the church of God" from scripture and say that ONLY the church of God denomination today is the "true Church." (Acts 20:28; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 1 Corinthians 11:22 etc..) They also taught salvation by works, with a heavy emphasis on water baptism. In fact, it seemed like water baptism was just about the only thing they talked about, and they relentlessly cited Acts 2:38 as their pet verse and ignored Acts 10:43-47.
It was a friend who invited me to attend that church. His aunt was an extremely devout member of the church of Christ. I'll never forget several years later running into my friend's aunt at my friend's daughter's birthday party. Since then, I had received Christ through faith and was now a born-again Christian. I shared this good news with his aunt and the only question that she had for me was, "where do you attend church?" When my answer was not "the church of Christ," she bowed her head in sadness as if to imply that I was still lost because I didn't say, "the church of Christ."
Soon after that, her husband approached me and I shared the good news with him that I had received Christ through faith and am now a born-again Christian as well and he had the same question, "where do you attend church," and when I told him and the answer was not, "the church of Christ," his eyes glazed over followed by a cheesy legalistic grin on his face and he simply walked away from me and neither of them would speak with me for the rest of the night. I knew that something was terribly wrong! I could hear them both over in the corner going on and on about "salvation by water baptism" and "ONLY the church of Christ is the "true Church." I quickly came to realize they were both deceived.
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MTMattie
Well-known member
I do not know if the coC is tied into anything. I agree it is a cult though.
I did have about 10 members of them back in around 2016/2018 convince me that I would never be saved because I
did not have a "proper" baptism.... Ironically, I went into a close meltdown over that... and sought to get it done.
To no avail. Even the local coC church denied me. (They did not like that I was not going to join their church)
(And when I said I did not believe I needed it to be saved.... well)
One member here did offer to do such for me, but it just did not happen.
Yes I was baptized... publicly....and then thoroughly educated in all things of Jesus and God.... and not until I understood what that meant and offered my belief in Jesus... yada yada... was I permitted to partake in Holy Communion.
I know... sounds very RCC but was a mere Presbyterian.... baby. And with all their hang-ups over Calvinism.... It was not taught in my first church... and certainly not talked of MUCH in the church I have been a member of for 52 years. (Though it is more and more and I am distancing myself more and more)
Behold
Well-known member
Generally, the "water cults" dont believe or teach Paul's Gospel that is.. "our Faith is counted by God, as Righteousess."
This is "Justification by Faith'....without works or water or commandment keeping.
So, the Water Cults........use Acts 2:38, as THEIR Gospel....and that is why they are obsessed with water baptism.
If we look at Acts 2:38, we see that this is the very beginning of what The Cross of Christ has Birthed.
Now.... Peter at that time.. Acts 2...does not know Paul's Gospel, as Paul is not called yet by Jesus... to give the Body of Christ "The Gospel of the Grace of God"..
So, what is Peter using when He says....>"repent and be water baptized"?
He is using all he knows.......at that time.....and that is John the Baptist's teaching where He tells Jews.. that come to Him... "repent and be baptized".
So, THAT is what Peter the Jew, in Act 2......is doing, as that is what He knows to say......
Later, all the Apostles teach.......>"Justificaiton by faith".......but that took a while to become THE Gospel that they all learned , and it started only after Paul received it From Jesus.
This is why Paul calls The Gospel.. "MY Gospel" 3x in the NT, and says....>"not man taught it to me, . i learned it from Jesus".
So, obviously Peter's "repent and be water baptized" is not what Paul is talking about that Paul received from Jesus, that is ""THE Gospel fo the Grace of God.""
GodsGrace
Well-known member
Of course!
Basically, it's the church you belong to that will baptize you.
Good. Finally.
But, you see, even if you don't understand baptism...it still works its effects on you.
You became a member of some church or other...
and the Holy Spirit was now dwelling in you.
NOW...the next step is to put Him into good use.
I see that you've left Calvinism so I'm sure you'll know what I'm talking about.
Even though you RECEIVE the Holy Spirit, He's not going to force you into any action
you don't want to take.
He's our helper and comforter....
not our dictator.
I think you agree.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
What more need be said !!
God forbid that some would follow your teachings!
You go against everything that Jesus taught.
I won't post any more scripture.
You're teaching a different gospel and leading some astray.
Just exactly what you're always preaching about some denominations.
YOU are doing.
MTMattie
Well-known member
They do not immerse... even adults. Plus
As in the WCF .... Especially see point 7.... So no rebaptism.
WCF CHAPTER 28: Of Baptism
1. Baptism is a sacrament of the new testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible church; but also, to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, of his ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins, and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in newness of life. Which sacrament is, by Christ’s own appointment, to be continued in his church until the end of the world.2. The outward element to be used in this sacrament is water, wherewith the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, by a minister of the gospel, lawfully called thereunto.
3. Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but baptism is rightly administered by pouring, or sprinkling water upon the person.
4. Not only those that do actually profess faith in and obedience unto Christ, but also the infants of one, or both, believing parents, are to be baptized.
5. Although it be a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance, yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it; or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.
6. The efficacy of baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered; yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongeth unto, according to the counsel of God’s own will, in his appointed time.
7. The sacrament of baptism is but once to be administered unto any person.
Donald
Member
Jesus was baptized.
“13Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, 'I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?' (Matthew 3:13-14 NKJV).
15But Jesus answered and said to him, 'Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.' Then he allowed Him (Matthew 3:15 NKJV).
16When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, 'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.'” (Matthew 3:16-17 NKJV).
In verse 15, Jesus says of his baptism, "It is fitting" (Matthew 3:15).
The general purpose of John’s baptism is stated by Mark. He says, "John came baptising in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" (Mark 1:4).
That cannot be the purpose of baptizing Jesus, however, because "He did no sin nor was any deceit found in his mouth" (1Peter 2:22). He had no sins of which to repent and be forgiven.
Nevertheless, Jesus insisted that it was fitting and proper for John to baptise him. If they had not done what was fitting in the sight of God, they would both have been disobedient to God and thus guilty of sin.
Now someone will ask why it was fitting for John to baptise Jesus. It was fitting because it foreshadowed the sufferings that Jesus would later endure, which sufferings were also fitting.
"For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings" (Hebrews 2:10 NKJV).
John’s baptism was "for the forgiveness of sins". Whilst Jesus had no sin of his own to be forgiven, he would have the whole world's sins to bear on the cross (1John 2:2, 1Peter 2:24).
You will notice that as soon as Jesus told John that the baptism was fitting, John ceased to object, changed his mind, and baptized Jesus.
Christ’s death would be "expedient" as Simeon prophesied (John 11:50 KJV). It would occur in "the fullness of time" Galatians 4:4-5). It is fitting therefore that in his baptism Jesus should foreshadow his death.
Jesus was concerned that righteousness should be filled to the full with all that is right and appropriate (Matthew 3:15).
It was Jesus’s mission to offer himself to the Father perfectly righteous. He was totally dedicated to that.
Jesus declares this dedication in the prophetic psalm: "Then I said, 'Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me. I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart. I have proclaimed the good news of righteousness In the great assembly'" (Psalm 40:7-9a NKJV, cf Hebrews 10:7-10).
John understood that the righteousness of Jesus was perfect. John also knew that his own righteousness was not. That's why he thought he should not baptise Jesus. But he learned that without baptism Jesus would not have perfect righteousness.
In verse 16, After his baptism, Jesus came out of the water and behold "the heavens were opened to him" (Matthew 3:16)
Jesus was granted a window into heaven. From this opening the Holy Spirit descended like a dove upon Jesus and a voice from Heaven bore God’s testimony that Jesus is God’s Son (Matthew 3:16-17).
John the Baptizer testified, "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove and He remained on Him" (John 1:32 NKJV).
This reminds us of the transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-8). Peter writes, "And we heard this voice which came from [the excellent glory] when we were with Him on the holy mountain." (2Peter 1:17-18 NKJV).
Without the baptism of Jesus, Heaven would have stayed shut, its testimony unspoken.
In verse 17, God spoke from heaven saying of his beloved Son, "In him I am well pleased" (Matthew 3:17).
It is the goal of every Christian to please God, keeping his commandments, and living by faith. This was also our Master’s goal, and he met it well in all things as even the people said (Mark 7:37).
It was immediately after the baptism of Jesus that God said, "In him I am well pleased". Jesus pleased God in many ways. Being baptized was one of them —and by no means the least.
Jesus was wellpleasing to God, not just for his own integrity, but also for yours. Through him, by grace, God is able to "make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen" (Hebrews 13:21).
Webservant Ron Graham
“13Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, 'I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?' (Matthew 3:13-14 NKJV).
15But Jesus answered and said to him, 'Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.' Then he allowed Him (Matthew 3:15 NKJV).
16When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, 'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.'” (Matthew 3:16-17 NKJV).
In verse 15, Jesus says of his baptism, "It is fitting" (Matthew 3:15).
The general purpose of John’s baptism is stated by Mark. He says, "John came baptising in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" (Mark 1:4).
That cannot be the purpose of baptizing Jesus, however, because "He did no sin nor was any deceit found in his mouth" (1Peter 2:22). He had no sins of which to repent and be forgiven.
Nevertheless, Jesus insisted that it was fitting and proper for John to baptise him. If they had not done what was fitting in the sight of God, they would both have been disobedient to God and thus guilty of sin.
Now someone will ask why it was fitting for John to baptise Jesus. It was fitting because it foreshadowed the sufferings that Jesus would later endure, which sufferings were also fitting.
"For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings" (Hebrews 2:10 NKJV).
John’s baptism was "for the forgiveness of sins". Whilst Jesus had no sin of his own to be forgiven, he would have the whole world's sins to bear on the cross (1John 2:2, 1Peter 2:24).
You will notice that as soon as Jesus told John that the baptism was fitting, John ceased to object, changed his mind, and baptized Jesus.
Christ’s death would be "expedient" as Simeon prophesied (John 11:50 KJV). It would occur in "the fullness of time" Galatians 4:4-5). It is fitting therefore that in his baptism Jesus should foreshadow his death.
In verse 15, Jesus says that he was being baptised "to fulfill all righteousness" (Matthew 3:15)
Jesus was concerned that righteousness should be filled to the full with all that is right and appropriate (Matthew 3:15).
It was Jesus’s mission to offer himself to the Father perfectly righteous. He was totally dedicated to that.
Jesus declares this dedication in the prophetic psalm: "Then I said, 'Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me. I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart. I have proclaimed the good news of righteousness In the great assembly'" (Psalm 40:7-9a NKJV, cf Hebrews 10:7-10).
John understood that the righteousness of Jesus was perfect. John also knew that his own righteousness was not. That's why he thought he should not baptise Jesus. But he learned that without baptism Jesus would not have perfect righteousness.
In verse 16, After his baptism, Jesus came out of the water and behold "the heavens were opened to him" (Matthew 3:16)
Jesus was granted a window into heaven. From this opening the Holy Spirit descended like a dove upon Jesus and a voice from Heaven bore God’s testimony that Jesus is God’s Son (Matthew 3:16-17).
John the Baptizer testified, "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove and He remained on Him" (John 1:32 NKJV).
This reminds us of the transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-8). Peter writes, "And we heard this voice which came from [the excellent glory] when we were with Him on the holy mountain." (2Peter 1:17-18 NKJV).
Without the baptism of Jesus, Heaven would have stayed shut, its testimony unspoken.
In verse 17, God spoke from heaven saying of his beloved Son, "In him I am well pleased" (Matthew 3:17).
It is the goal of every Christian to please God, keeping his commandments, and living by faith. This was also our Master’s goal, and he met it well in all things as even the people said (Mark 7:37).
It was immediately after the baptism of Jesus that God said, "In him I am well pleased". Jesus pleased God in many ways. Being baptized was one of them —and by no means the least.
Jesus was wellpleasing to God, not just for his own integrity, but also for yours. Through him, by grace, God is able to "make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen" (Hebrews 13:21).
Webservant Ron Graham
MTMattie
Well-known member
But, at one point in my life he corrected my wayward ways in a way that I knew to shape up or be lost forever.
I remember it so well and the very thoughts of that day ... all I can say is WOW.
I have had a life of ... well, lets just say I would not want anyone else to have had my life. But I always knew what Jesus did for us
on the cross. That never left me. And the Father had my back in 3 amazing ways, albeit me being totally undeserving....
Yes... I left Calvinism. Truth be told I did not even realize what it was until I got involved in forums.
But the first time I read that Calvin said .....while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death that was bot the heavenly Father I know. Not that I believe He will not punish justly but Calvin makes it seem like He deliberately, before time, decided He would make people for eternal death.. AND SOME GO SO FAR AS TO SAY DAMNATION.
Well.. I do not need to go into that.
Yes, the Holy Spirit is our helper. And Yes, I believe God allows us our free will and if we decline His offer to us... then that is on us. I know He also will help the undeserving. I know He also still heals people these days. (A tumor in my mother's breast, detected by 3 different thermography machines, just disappeared within 3 days on operation day)
TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY
Well-known member
i am equally yoked with those whose meat is The lovely words of the LORD .
they were called christain first in antioch . and we sheep be scattered
but happily feeding on all lovely reminders of the truth in scripture .
NOW to the trenches for the hour is late and grows later every day .
Only certain denominations can claim a direct lineage to the Antioch Christians. They are the Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox.
Jeff
Member
I'm glad I live in the good ole UAS with religious freedom an all.
My ancestors come to the USA from Ireland where they had to fight for what they believed, and they didn't have a keyboard to hide behind.
www.ncesc.com
My ancestors come to the USA from Ireland where they had to fight for what they believed, and they didn't have a keyboard to hide behind.
Why did Catholic and Protestant divide Ireland? - Geographic FAQ Hub: Answers to Your Global Questions
Why did Catholic and Protestant divide Ireland? The division between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland can be traced back to a long history of religious and political conflicts. The main reason for the divide can be attributed to various factors, including: 1. The Home Rule movement: In the...
www.ncesc.com
Darby
Active member
Same here. Mine came in the 1800s.I'm glad I live in the good ole UAS with religious freedom an all.
My ancestors come to the USA from Ireland where they had to fight for what they believed, and they didn't have a keyboard to hide behind.
Why did Catholic and Protestant divide Ireland? - Geographic FAQ Hub: Answers to Your Global Questions
Why did Catholic and Protestant divide Ireland? The division between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland can be traced back to a long history of religious and political conflicts. The main reason for the divide can be attributed to various factors, including: 1. The Home Rule movement: In the...
TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY
Well-known member
peter and all the apostles with CHRIST in the lead would have rebuked the RCC big time .
They have zero claim .
The sheep are the christains . Now to the trenches . The hour is late and the HARLOT and her daughters rest not
and do deceive the many .
GodsGrace
Well-known member
Thanks for posting.
I agree with all.
Maybe Calvinism got some things right!
JK
All faiths have some correct teachings.
They seem to baptize babies for the same reason that Catholics do.
Long story.
Behold
Well-known member
Here is what the Catholic Church actually teaches regarding WHY they "infant baptize"..
This is "baptismal regeneration",.. which is the cult teaching that "water washes away your sin" which negates/denies that Christ's Shed Blood that is the only reason why sins are forgiven.
The Catholic Church teaches that infant baptism is essential for SALVATION.... and is required for all members of the Church. The Catholic Doctrine teaches that water baptism removes original sin......and makes the child a member of the body of Christ.
This Teaching denies the Cross of Christ as the "Blood Atonement' and "New Covenant".
GodsGrace
Well-known member
GodsGrace
Well-known member
Thanks to Augustine of Hippo, WHO CHANGED THE MEANING OF ORIGINAL SIN...
The CC used to teach that unbaptized babies went to hell because they were GUILTY of Adam's sin.
The CC, happily, has changed its position and leaves unbaptized babies in the hands of God...
Guess they couldn't just deny what they had been teaching for hundreds of years.
Baptism is REAL to the CC,,,as indeed it IS.
So it invites the child into the church.
Inviting him into the Body of Christ is complicated and I've never received a clear reply.
However, the teaching is this:
The Holy Spirit MUST BE ACTIVATED at some point in the person's life.
Baptism ALONE will not save any Catholic...
Behold
Well-known member
And if a person is not born again, then getting water baptized 2300 times, wont help you, as its just water, all 2300 times.
No one is saved by water baptism., however, a lot of people who were water baptized, and told it "washed away their sin".. died and went to Hell today...
Reader.........You have to be so careful regarding what what you trust.........and where you place your faith, and if the person has believed that "water washed away their sin" then they are become the victim of a "water cult".
And being "im so sorry GOD i was wrong"....wont help a person who just died, and had believed the lie that Water Baptism washed away their sin.
