YHWH is the Angel of the Lord

[civic]

The angel of the Lord was worshipped by several of Gods chosen in the OT.

Gideon refers to the Messenger of YHWH as adoni.
Since the Messenger of YHWH is YHWH demonstrates Gideon was referring to YHWH as adoni.

Judges 6:11-23
11 The Messenger of the Lord came and sat under the oak tree in Ophrah that belonged to Joash from Abiezer’s family. Joash’s son Gideon was beating out wheat in a winepress to hide it from the Midianites.
12 The Messenger of the Lord appeared to Gideon and said, “The Lord is with you, brave man.”
13 Gideon responded, “Excuse me, sir! But if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all the miracles our ancestors have told us about? Didn’t they say, ‘The Lord brought us out of Egypt?’ But now the Lord has abandoned us and has handed us over to Midian.”
14 The Lord turned to him and said, “You will rescue Israel from Midian with the strength you have. I am sending you.”
15 Gideon said to him, “Excuse me, sir! How can I rescue Israel? Look at my whole family. It’s the weakest one in Manasseh. And me? I’m the least important member of my family.”
16 The Lord replied, “I will be with you. You will defeat Midian as if it were only one man.”
17 Gideon said to him, “If you find me acceptable, give me a sign that it is really you speaking to me.
18 Don’t leave until I come back. I want to bring my gift and set it in front of you.”
“I will stay until you come back,” he said.
19 Then Gideon went into his house and prepared a young goat and unleavened bread made with 18 quarts of flour. He put the meat in a basket and the broth in a pot. Then he went out and presented them to the Messenger of the Lord under the oak tree.
20 The Messenger of the Lord told him, “Take the meat and the unleavened bread, put them on this rock, and pour the broth over them.” Gideon did so.
21 Then the Messenger of the Lord touched the meat and the bread with the tip of the staff that was in his hand. Fire flared up from the rock and burned the meat and the bread. Then the Messenger of the Lord disappeared.
22 That’s when Gideon realized that this had been the Messenger of the Lord. So he said, “Lord God! I have seen the Messenger of the Lord face to face.”
23 The Lord said to him, “Calm down! Don’t be afraid. You will not die.” (GW)



Verse 12 - The Messenger of YHWH appears unto Gideon.
Verse 14 - The Messenger is described as the Lord (YHWH) which spoke unto Gideon.
Verse 17, 18 - Gideon asks "Him" (the Messenger of YHWH) not to depart.
Verse 18 - The Messenger of YHWH says He will wait until Gideon returns.
Verse 19 - Gideon brings out the food unto the Messenger of YHWH under the oak tree. This is where the Messenger of YHWH was originally (verse 11).
Verses 20-22 - Describes what the Messenger of YHWH did to Gideons' offer.

Notice also in verse 22 that Gideon realized that the Messenger to whom he referred to as "sir" (adoni) in Judges 6:13 was in fact YHWH! By seeing the Messenger (YHWH) face to face Gideon was in fear that he would die (cf. Exodus 33:20). This is why in the very next verse (23) YHWH assures Gideon that he will not die even though Gideon saw YHWH face to face.

The Angel of the Lord in the OT was the pre incarnate Son which is why He is identified as YHWH and worshiped as God unlike the created angels who are not worshiped.

Gen 22:11-14
But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"

"Here I am," he replied.

12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided."


Exodus 3:2, 5

And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed…And he said, Draw not nigh thither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.”


Well the main function or a general definition of a "shaliach" is as follows:

A shaliaḥ (שָלִיחַ; pl. שְלִיחִים, sheliḥim) in Halakha is a Jewish legal or agent. Accordingly, a shaliaḥ performs an act of legal significance for the benefit of the sender, as opposed to him or herself.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaliach


A Chabad shliach (שליח, pl. שליחים/שלוחים, shlichim/shluchim) is a Chabad member sent out to promulgate Judaism and Chasidut around the world. Chabad shluchim today number about 4,000 worldwide, and can be found in many of even the most remote worldly locales.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaliach_(Chabad)

Now, I am bringing this up for a very good reason and I want to cut to the chase of my point in this little exercise. The basic job of a "shaliach or the definition is an agent sent on a specfic mission to represent the interst of someon else. In short there are restrictions to the function of a shaliach and I will give you the best example.

Now, you have at Genesis 16:7 the very first appearance of the angel of the Lord. If you read the context from verse 7 to Genesis 17:1-2 you will discover that the Lord God Almighty is the speaker even though the the angel of the Lord is actually speaking. At verse 10 the angel of the Lord says that He will greatly multiply the descendents of Hagar. Then at Genesis 17:1 and 2 it's the Lord God Almighty who will multiply his descendents. You cannot get away from the fact that the same being is taking in the passages. Even at Genesis 16:13 Hagar says I have see the Lord God and am still alive.

Now, lets jump to Genesis 22 where God is going to test Abraham. You have the Lord God Almighty speaking from Genesis 22:1-10. There is no question about this fact. At verse 11 it states, "But the angel of the Lord called to him (Abraham) from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." Then at verse 15 the angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time." (Note: why does the angel of the Lord have to call out for God Himself a second time from heaven?) Is not the Lord God Himself capable of calling out from heaven Himself. I mean He did call out from heaven at Mark 1:11. He did not need the so-called shaliah then.

After the angel of the Lord calls out from heaven the second time which is Genesis 22:15 here is what this so-called shaliach/emissary says, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld you son, you only son. Indeed, I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore etc."

So you see from following the sequence of events a shaliach is limited or he can only do so much on behalf of the sender. He cannot swear an oath for the sender as you see the scriptures say. He cannot multiply the seed of anyone as you see the scriptures say.

Not only that but the real kicker of all of this is found in the NT at Hebrews 6:13. The writer of the Hebrews states, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, VS14, SAYING, "I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU , AND I WILL MULTIPLY YOU." This text is referring back to Genesis 22 and Abraham. A shaliach cannot swear an oath on behalf of the sender and it even says God swore by Himself. In short, the shaliach argument will not work and I maintain that the messenger of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

continued:

the truth regarding the identity of the "special " "unique" " messenger/angel of the Lord whom is called YHWH on numerous occasions and is worshiped as YHWH which would be idolatry. And we know all angels of God REFUSE to be worshipped and will not allow any man to worship them.

YHWH(God Almighty) revealed himself to Moses in the burning bush (Ex. 3:2-15). It was I AM that spoke with Moses, we are told it was the angel of the Lord that appeared to him. Jesus said to the Jews that He was the I Am that appeared to Moses (John 8:58). The Word (John 1:1) the 2nd Person of the Trinity is who appeared and came down from heaven as the angel of Jehovah. He appeared as a man. This angel of the Lord is called Yahweh in (Gen. 19:1-13, 33). God went before the Hebrews in the wilderness. What they saw was the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire (Ex. 13:21-22). Paul declared it was Christ who appeared in the wilderness and it was Christ the Lord who was tempted.(1 Cor 10:1-12)

John 1:18 says, "No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God/Son who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared of explained Him." And then there is John 6:46, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, except he who is from God, he hath sen the Father." The point being made is the fact that the Son of God is the visible manifestation of God (Hebrews 1:3) and the kicker verse if you wil is John 5:37, "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. YOU HAVE NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME, NOR SEEN HIS FORM." So Jesus here out His own mouth says you have neither heard the Fathers voice nor seen His form."

The angel of the Lord who is YHWH is worshiped as YHWH- the Lord God !

Since God took the form of a man in the person of the preincarnate Jesus Christ this has to mean that Jesus Christ is God. So on what basis do I come to this conclusion? On the basis of what Jesus Christ Himself said at John 6:46, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, except he who is from God, he hath seen the Father." And on the basis of the testimony of Old Testament saints themselves. Look at Genesis 16:13, "Then she/Hagar called the name OF THE LORD WHO spoke to her, Thou art a God who sees; for she said, Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him." Genesis 18 reading the whole chapter. Here is what vs1 states, "Now the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he/Abraham was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day." Please read the rest of the chapter and cross reference what Genesis 21:2 says regarding Genesis 18. "So Sarah conceived and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the appointed time OF WHICH GOD HAD SPOKEN TO HIM."

And who appeared to Isaac at Genesis 26:2? "And the Lord appeared to him and said, "Do not go down to Egypt, stay in the land of which I shall tell you." Now look at Genesis 26:3, "Sojourn in this land and I will be with you and bless you, for to your and to your descendants I will give all these lands, and I will ESTABLISH THE OATH WHICH I SWORE TO YOUR FATHER ABRAHAM."

Where did God swear this oath to Abraham ? Look at the whole chapter of Genesis 22 specifically verses 11-18. It was the angel of the Lord/Jesus Christ who swore the oath and He is identified as, what did you say, "God introduced Himself in the first person singular as "The Being." In fact, even the New Testament backs up this first person singular being swearing the oath by Himself at Hebrews 6:13, 14, "For when GOD made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD NOT SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF. saying, "I will surely bless you; and I will surely multiply you." If you believe that it was an angel that swore the oath on Gods behalf than why does the text say God swore the oath BY HIMSELF AND THERE IS NO ONE GREATER, especially angels who are created like the rest of us mere humans.


The main function or a general definition of a "shaliach" is as follows:

A shaliaḥ (שָלִיחַ; pl. שְלִיחִים, sheliḥim) in Halakha is a Jewish legal or agent. Accordingly, a shaliaḥ performs an act of legal significance for the benefit of the sender, as opposed to him or herself.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaliach

A Chabad shliach (שליח, pl. שליחים/שלוחים, shlichim/shluchim) is a Chabad member sent out to promulgate Judaism and Chasidut around the world. Chabad shluchim today number about 4,000 worldwide, and can be found in many of even the most remote worldly locales.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaliach_(Chabad)


So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 "After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 "Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 "This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 "This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 "But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.

Moving on we read the following in this passage.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.

aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.

I. Plural pronouns used of God proving YHWH is Plural in Persons:

A. Three plural pronouns, (We, Us, Our) used 6 different times in four different passages. Remember the word God (elohim) is also plural every time it is used in the Old Testament. Gen 11:7 also includes a plural verb (confuse) which even further, through grammar reinforces the plural "elohim" and the plural pronoun US.

1. "Our" Gen 1:26
2. "Us" Gen 1:26, 3:22, 11:7; Isa 6:8
3. "We" Isa 6:8

B. These are the four passages where God speaks for Himself and uses plural pronouns:

1. "Then God [plural elohim] said, "Let Us [plural pronoun] make man in Our [plural pronoun] image, according to Our [plural pronoun] likeness" Genesis 1:26
2. "Then Yahweh God [plural elohim] said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us [plural pronoun], knowing good and evil" Genesis 3:22
3. "Come, let Us [plural pronoun] go down and there confuse [plural form of balal] their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech." Genesis 11:7
4. "Then I heard the voice of the Lord [plural elohim], saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us [plural pronoun]?"" Isaiah 6:8

II. Christ is the identical image of God, angels are not

A. Jesus Christ is our co-creator who is the exact image of God.

1. "see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. " 2 Corinthians 4:4
2. "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. " Colossians 1:15
3. "And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, " Hebrews 1:3

B. There is no reason to suggest the plural pronoun is the "plural of Majesty", since both Jesus and the Father are described as having the same image.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Predestined]

This is great @civic. I have some studying to catch up on with the angel of the lord.

 

[civic]

This is great @civic. I have some studying to catch up on with the angel of the lord.

You are welcome, glad I could be of service. As you know my passion is all about the identity of Christ, His nature, character, mission etc..... Its all about Him from cover to cover. Amen !

Looking for the Son in Scripture is like mining for gold. There are nuggets to be found if you are digging for them.