What is the Gospel
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Free Will definition. : Websters; "voluntary choice or decision".
Duet. 30: 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore "choose life", that both thou and thy seed may live:
If you could just set aside your adopted religious philosophy for just a few minutes, and offer to God the respect and humility HE deserves, and actually think about what you are promoting here.
You are teaching others that God Commanded men to obey Him or die. But then HE withheld from them the capacity to choose to obey Him. Then Lied to them by telling them they could choose to obey Him. They slaughtered them by the thousands when they didn't obey Him. Not only is this philosophy not supported by Scriptures, but it is a wicked and evil judgment against God. The same Judgment against Him promoted by the preacher in the garden with Eve, who also professed to know God, when he accused God of Lying, by telling Eve, "Ye shall not surely die":
Consider the wickedness and evil nature of this Judgment against God. That HE Lied to all mankind, speaking through the Prophets;
Ez. 18: 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But "if the wicked" "will turn from all his sins that he hath committed", and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not "that he should return from his ways", and live?
But "many" who come in Christ's Name, preach to the entire world that these Word's are a deception, and cannot be trusted. That God has withheld from ALL humans, the ability, or capacity to turn from their sins, or turn to Him in repentance as HE Instructs. "If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land." That God Chooses, through some hidden secret holy lottery at birth, based on nothing the man ever did, to either withhold the ability to "Turn to Him", or make the person "Turn to Him. And then HE rebukes, punishes and tortures for eternity in a forever burning hell, those who HE withheld the capacity or ability to "Yield themselves" to HIM, "BECAUSE" they didn't Yield themselves" to him as HE Commanded. While at the same time, glorifies and gives the gift of immortality, to those who HE makes "Yield themselves" to Him, "BECAUSE" they Yielded themselves to Him.
The Bible doesn't teach this wicked and evil gospel. There are "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord that do. But not the Bible.
brightfame52
Active Member
Webster isnt thinking spiritually. Mans will is a slave to sin. Jesus calls it a servant to sin John 8:34
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Thats even true of the elect before regenerated Rom 6:17
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
We have to be made free from sin Vs 18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Being made free is in the passive voice, we dont make ourselves free from sin. That proves man doesnt have a freewill from the slavery of sin.
Yes, of course. However not one of them says what you are saying about those dead in trespasses and sins. Again, you don't get that from scripture, you get that from John Calvin who got it from Augustine, the Gnostic.
Not physically, mentally, intellectually,
If the nonsense that you pose for unbelievers, the spiritually dead, were true, then God would not have bothered speaking with Adam once he had disobeyed. Nor would he have bothered speaking with Cain after his offering had been disregarded. And of course Pharaoh would not have had the slightest idea what Moses was even talking about concerning setting God's people free. We can go through the bible and point out person after person who were not believers, i.e., spiritually dead sinners, that were quite capable of understanding God's words, His commands, His directions, His prophecies. The vast numbers of the Hebrews who were not among the "remnant" were not among the "remnant" by choice. Same for all the unregenerate who listened to Paul and the other apostles and prophets and rejected their teaching and preaching.
Your belief about the spiritually dead is simply untenable. It goes against everything the Bible as the word of God stands for.
@Studyman
Our daily walk through this world we continuously repent and confess our sins thereby, making our hearts (practically speaking) and spirit new every day, in one sense, but only the very elect whom God has regenerated has this desire and will to do so. You and many others, live off of sound bites and have no understanding of how to rightly divided the word of truth, and God will not help you since you boldly reject his teachings on so many important truths.
But, you must also provide scriptures that shows man will is active in being born again, and this you can never do, you not any other person.
I'm coming back and finish since I just received a call that I must attend to that's going take me away for a couple hours.
Man's will is "not free to do spiritual acts pleasing to God", impossible, and yes it's the very foundational teaching of what I believe, since the testimony of God teaches this truth, and we see it to be truth even in the life of godly folks, who struggles with sin and doing God will from time to time, and they have a new man empowering them, and they still come up short, which grieves them nevertheless, they know this to be so, if honest with themselves, which some religious folks are not.
God was not saying these things Aboriginal people, of Australia, or any other folks of this world, not even to the Egyptians, but to the "House of Israel only"! Which among them were God's very elect to whom God had given some of them the power to hear, and to beleive and to obey his word.
Our daily walk through this world we continuously repent and confess our sins thereby, making our hearts (practically speaking) and spirit new every day, in one sense, but only the very elect whom God has regenerated has this desire and will to do so. You and many others, live off of sound bites and have no understanding of how to rightly divided the word of truth, and God will not help you since you boldly reject his teachings on so many important truths.
Yes much different from what "you" teach and believe ~ let us get this straight.. You would need to humble yourself and submit to the teachings not of Red Baker's, but to the God of heaven, who has given his testimony as to what truth is, much of which the world hates and rejects. You need to consider if Mr. Studyman has truly been deceived in light of God's testimony.
Not so fast, sir, the manner of proving one's position aligns with the word of God and the opposite position does not, is for you to take for example John 1:10-13; Romans 9:16 and prove I'm using scriptures wrong and that my position which denies man's will in the new birth, is against the word of God and scriptures others use, like myself are use out of context (John 1:10-13; Romans 9;16, etc.) and are not according to the teachings of the scriptures, this you have never done properly, or systematically, never, which is tghe correct waay of having a proper dialogue with others consist of.
But, you must also provide scriptures that shows man will is active in being born again, and this you can never do, you not any other person.
I'm coming back and finish since I just received a call that I must attend to that's going take me away for a couple hours.
Not to get between you two, but I think I need to do something here.
@Red Baker, you know my view on John 1:10-13 and Romans 9:16 so I won't bother to lay all of that out here. I just need you to prove I'm using scriptures wrong. But you can't do that. You can't prove that I am wrong. All you can do is present your own view which, of course, proves nothing.
So, my point here is that you are asking @Studyman to do something that you, yourself, cannot do. You should not ask anyone to prove anything from scripture, and you should not think that you can prove anything from scripture. All you can do is to present your own interpretation of any given scripture.
@Studyman
Studyman, I fully understanding free justifications by Christ alone without our works being involved. So., it is not me preaching/teaching against what Christ taught, "but it is you".
This thread is about ~"What is the gospel" ~ it is you that desires to add your works into being born of the Spirit, not me. We teach good works after the new birth, not in order to obtain this new birth.
Studyman, what Paul thought and all other Jews and what Jesus taught are indeed two different things altogether, I never said Christ was wrong in his teachings, I said plainly that it was Paul in his unconverted state was the one that was wrong, so your point is moot.
Studyman, I fully understanding free justifications by Christ alone without our works being involved. So., it is not me preaching/teaching against what Christ taught, "but it is you".
This thread is about ~"What is the gospel" ~ it is you that desires to add your works into being born of the Spirit, not me. We teach good works after the new birth, not in order to obtain this new birth.
The answer to both questions are no. They are actually childish questions that does not serve any purpose.
You still failed to provide proof from the word of God that I'm wrong in what I'm saying by proving scriptures: 1) to prove I'm wrong. 2) Provide scriptures proving your position~ and if you think that you have, then it only show just how deceived your are. Honest men show be able to judge for themselves, but regardless, God will in that day.
You preach to the world that when Paul said, " as touching the law, a Pharisee;", that this "law" was "the law of God, that he thought would give life to those who kept it".,
This is an insidious falsehood. An absolute falsehood. I posed the Scriptures that prove this popular error, and asked several questions so that you can see for yourself that the "Pharisees" were not obeying God's Law, but had gone about instead establishing their own righteousness.
I used to think that you were just deceived, as Jesus warned about. But now I understand that you know the answer to the questions I asked, and you know the Pharisees Law, was not "The Law of God". But you still post this teaching to anyone who would listen to you. That's a whole different ballgame.
I hope others can see this as well, and "Take Heed" of the contents of your posts, even though you come in Christ's Name.
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So then you have rejected the English definition of a term you use, and have created your own definition to not mean ""voluntary choice or decision" ? And now I can't know God unless I also reject the English definition of Free will, and adopt your definition?
But you ignored the most important part of Paul's teaching.
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but "ye have obeyed from the heart" that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
And what was the doctrine Paul had just delivered to them?
Rom. 6: 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, (Dead) but under grace? (Alive) God forbid. (That means NO! BF52)
16 Know ye not, (BF52) that to whom "ye yield yourselves" servants to obey, "his servants ye are" to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
There it is again. The 2 free will choices God gives to every man. Obey God or obey the other voice in the garden. What did those Paul was speaking about do?
17 But God be thanked, that "ye were" the servants of sin, but "ye have obeyed from the heart" that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then "made free from sin", ye became the servants of righteousness.
Your adopted philosophy that God withholds the ability from of man to "Yield themselves to Him", then kills them because they didn't yield themselves to Him, is a wicked and evil judgment against God, and is taught no where in Scriptures.
brightfame52
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
Yeah I reject your use of it hear. Webters dont know nothing about spiritual matters. I reject your wisdom of men. Man is a slave spiritually to sin by nature, his heart and will is a slave to sin. Man by nature can and will make choices within the boundary of his enslavement to sin, but hes limited to that sphere of motion and activity.
It seems that you have no idea of what Paul, in Romans 3:9-19, is saying and what he means. It certainly not what you just said above.
But isn't "Struggling against sin" as defined by God, a Spiritual Act that men voluntarily engage in, that pleases God?
Was God not pleased when Shadrack, of his own free will, at the risk of his own life, refused to adopt the religious traditions of the world surrounding him? When Jesus, of His own free will, humbled Himself in obedience to His Father, did that voluntary humility not please His Father?
Or are you still promoting the evil and wicked philosophy that only men who God "Makes" please Him, are able to please Him. And those who Don't please Him do so because God withheld the ability from them to please Him, and then killed them when they didn't please Him.
Do you have any idea what a wicked and anti-Christ teaching this is?
You have, of your own free will, saddled the wrong horse Red, just as the Pharisees did.
So then, this would be like a man refusing to admit they were wrong when they preach to the world that the Pharisees Law, was "the law of God, that they thought would give life to those who kept it"., when God said they created their own Law, and full well rejected God's Law.
Are you really preaching that it's God's fault that you refuse to admit to your error's and false teaching in this matter, because you don't have "free will"?
So you are preaching then, that God only spoke to people born with a certain DNA, and even in those people, HE was only spoke only to those HE had already given the power to "Choose Life".
So when HE said:
"But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
You preach HE is speaking to those HE purposely "WITHHELD the power to obey Him" from, based on nothing they did.
So then when it is written "Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation". In you religion this is only speaking to men that God has not withheld the power to obey from. All other men are not allowed by God to "harden not their hearts".
So then, when God says,
Is. 56: 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
In your religion, these are only those men who God's doesn't withhold the power to obey Him from, based on some hidden holy lottery that is based on no choice the man makes.
So when God says "All People", in your religion that is not true. Only people that God "lets" obey Him, are allowed into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Can you not see the wickedness and foolishness of this teaching? Not to mention the Bible doesn't teach any such thing.
And of course, all men who have adopted Calvinism have been chosen by God's holy lottery. How convenient.
Whoa there mainstream preacher. You have just spent over a decade trying to convince me and others that men don't understand because God withholds the ability of men to understand Him, based on "no choice they make". Remember, it's you that preaches I have no free will. But now all the sudden, when a person points out an insidious falsehood that you preach to others, that man suddenly has free will and is judged by God according to his works.
It's the same old movie I have seen over and over. If I adopt your hypocrisy and religious philosophies, " then my eyes shall be opened, and I shall be as you, knowing good and evil.
I advocate that men place their trust in the Word of God, not Red Baker's adopted religion.
Just more of your words Red, to justify and exalt yourself. To believe you, if I'm deceived, according to your religion, it is based off of Nothing" I chose to do. Because in your religion, I have no ability to "Choose" anything, true or false.
I used to be deceived by your religion years ago, "in time past when I walked according to the religions of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".
But I have been freed from the yoke of Bondage of your religion, that preaches God withholds from men the ability to honor and obey Him, based on nothing they choose to do, then tortures them for eternity in a burning hell, "because" they didn't obey Him.
I will never adopt again such a wicked and evil judgment against God as long as I live.
brightfame52
Active Member
It's not Webster that a man has to worry about rejecting. It's ignoring or rejecting Scripture, like Romans 6:12-20.
But the religious traditions of this world are seductive, and Jesus and the Bible warns of them many many times. And maybe you are right, maybe God has withheld from you the ability to hear Him, and has chosen you to promote the religions of this world.
Nevertheless, I believe all of Paul's teaching.
2 cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, "according to that he hath done", whether it be good or bad.
If you want to promote a religious philosophy that teaches God withhold from men the ability to do God, then destroys punishes them for eternity because they did bad, you are free to do so. Personally I don't believe God is making you, but I could be wrong.
Ez. 18: 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
brightfame52
Active Member
You ignore scripture for your man made views
brightfame52
Active Member
You dont know what you posting
