We Got Zephaniah 1 Wrong

[mikesw]

We got Zephaniah 1 wrong. It generally reads like this in vv 2-4

2 I will utterly sweep away everything from the surface of the earth, says Yahweh.
3 I will sweep away man and animal. I will sweep away the birds of the sky, the
fish of the sea, and the heaps of rubble with the wicked. I will cut off man from
the surface of the earth, says Yahweh.
4 I will stretch out my hand against Judah and against all the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

The problem is that the word "earth" should be "land." What happened then? I turns out that the Hebrew text is correct but the accents are wrong. The accents were added around AD 500. So, the Hebrew word for land and earth is the same three letters but have been interpreted with accents. However, the idea of an earthly destruction is also promoted in 1 Enoch 10:20-22

20 And you; cleanse the Earth from all wrong, and from all iniquity, and from
all sin, and from all impiety, and from all the uncleanness, which is brought about on the Earth; remove them from the Earth.
21 And all the sons of men shall be righteous, and all the nations shall serve and bless Me, and all shall worship Me.
22 And the Earth will be cleansed from all corruption, and from all sin, and
from all wrath, and from all torment; and I will not again send a flood upon it, for all generations, for ever

In an early era, it seems that the text of Zeph 1 was being read as "earth," as reflected in 1 Enoch 10. This possibly was so that it would seem that Judah's judgment was just part of a global judgment and thus not highlighting Judah's sin. Note also that the Septuagint (LXX) conveys the word "land" such that we have that snapshot of the meaning from the centuries before Christ.

The effect of this correction is to recognize that Zephaniah 1 should not be interpreted as a global destruction -- but rather devastation that happened around the time of Jerusalem's devastation. If someone is looking for a global wrath of God, this verse does not convey that.

The passage may convey that devastation would happen around Jerusalem before reaching it or that the enemies of Jerusalem would be devastated in the surrounding land. With Zech 2 pointing to certain idolatrous nations surround Judah, the idea may be of a cleansing of the idols around there at the time Jerusalem was judged.

 

[Rockson]

So, the Hebrew word for land and earth is the same three letters but have been interpreted with accents. However, the idea of an earthly destruction is also promoted in 1 Enoch 10:20-22

So you're using a book of Enoch to prove something? You sure you think you have the right to do that?

 

[mikesw]

So you're using a book of Enoch to prove something? You sure you think you have the right to do that?

I'm using 1 Enoch to show that an unrealistic conception of Zech 1 was probably held in the BC years. I refer to 1 Enoch to reflect how the wrong interpretation of a word ( land vs earth) had introduced an error in the accents added with the Masoretic text. Is something wrong with that?

It is interesting that the NKJV I viewed actually uses "land" here as does a translation to English from the LXX. A commentator translated with the phrase "face of the ground" instead of "face of the earth." He still promotes a global destruction despite the passage being built around the people of Judah.

 

[TomL]

We got Zephaniah 1 wrong. It generally reads like this in vv 2-4


The problem is that the word "earth" should be "land." What happened then? I turns out that the Hebrew text is correct but the accents are wrong. The accents were added around AD 500. So, the Hebrew word for land and earth is the same three letters but have been interpreted with accents. However, the idea of an earthly destruction is also promoted in 1 Enoch 10:20-22

In an early era, it seems that the text of Zeph 1 was being read as "earth," as reflected in 1 Enoch 10. This possibly was so that it would seem that Judah's judgment was just part of a global judgment and thus not highlighting Judah's sin. Note also that the Septuagint (LXX) conveys the word "land" such that we have that snapshot of the meaning from the centuries before Christ.

The effect of this correction is to recognize that Zephaniah 1 should not be interpreted as a global destruction -- but rather devastation that happened around the time of Jerusalem's devastation. If someone is looking for a global wrath of God, this verse does not convey that.

The passage may convey that devastation would happen around Jerusalem before reaching it or that the enemies of Jerusalem would be devastated in the surrounding land. With Zech 2 pointing to certain idolatrous nations surround Judah, the idea may be of a cleansing of the idols around there at the time Jerusalem was judged.

Jude 14–16 (UASV) — 14 It was also about these men that Enoch, the seventh one in line from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Look, the Lord came with tens of thousands of his holy ones, 15 to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they did in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These men are murmurers, finding fault, following their own desires, and their mouths make excessive boasts, flattering people for their own advantage.

 

[mikesw]

Jude 14–16 (UASV) — 14 It was also about these men that Enoch, the seventh one in line from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Look, the Lord came with tens of thousands of his holy ones, 15 to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they did in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These men are murmurers, finding fault, following their own desires, and their mouths make excessive boasts, flattering people for their own advantage.

Yep. Again the passage speaks of the problems of the people in the first century. Then in vv 20-23, Jude instructed people to have mercy on those people. He said even to pluck them out of the fire. This was the instruction to treat the people with mercy despite on the troubles that were happening around them -- and also show mercy in light of the judgment that was coming upon that generation.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

So you're using a book of Enoch to prove something? You sure you think you have the right to do that?

Hey Jude.

 

[mikesw]

Hey Jude.

Yep. Jude was taking a sad song and making it better. Thanks for that insight.

 

[TomL]

Yep. Jude was taking a sad song and making it better. Thanks for that insight.

Sad songs - Wasn't that Elton John

 

[mikesw]

Sad songs - Wasn't that Elton John

Okay. so the Beatles were anticipating Jude making Elton John's Sad Songs better. But this thread is supposed to be about Zephaniah's anticipation of judgment. So we are kind of straying from the initial topic. Is that happening because it is Sunday today?

 

[Rockson]

I refer to 1 Enoch to reflect how the wrong interpretation of a word ( land vs earth) had introduced an error in the accents added with the Masoretic text. Is something wrong with that?

I'd be leery of using any passage of a book called Enoch to prove or demonstrate anything. If you start using it for one thing you might be tempted to use it for all things.

 

[Rockson]

Hey Jude.

Sure Jude speaks of Enoch. What's called the book of Enoch though is not in canon.

 

[mikesw]

I'd be leery of using any passage of a book called Enoch to prove or demonstrate anything. If you start using it for one thing you might be tempted to use it for all things.

The only problem that might occur with my use of this to make my point is if 1 Enoch were found to be a forgery out of the 1500s. Other than that, the document has relevance in showing the mindset of (some) Jews in the BC years. I'm not sure where any concern is about showing that. Maybe you are misreading my argument?
Edited: I showed that the tradition of the Hebrew interpretation was of a global destruction. Thus also 1 Enoch pushed for a global destruction. However the other interpretation (found in the LXX) conveys a local devastation -- which is a difference in the Masoretic text based on interpretive accent marks. The local destruction fits the context much better.

 

[Rockson]

The only problem that might occur with my use of this to make my point is if 1 Enoch were found to be a forgery out of the 1500s. Other than that, the document has relevance in showing the mindset of (some) Jews in the BC years. I'm not sure where any concern is about showing that. Maybe you are misreading my argument?

Perhaps.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

in 1 Enoch 10:20-22

No need to pay any more attention to this thread -

 

[mikesw]

No need to pay any more attention to this thread -

Why? Are you confused about the topic of Zephaniah?
Note that I was adding additional clarification to the text of post #12 while these last two comments were added.

Also ... after 20 years of posting stuff I'm starting to recognize that many rejections of my ideas are not hostile responses

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Sure Jude speaks of Enoch. What's called the book of Enoch though is not in canon.

Jude QUOTES (not speaks of) Enoch. If Jude can quote Enoch, there's nothing wrong with any of us quoting Enoch, too.

 

[Rockson]

Jude QUOTES (not speaks of) Enoch. If Jude can quote Enoch, there's nothing wrong with any of us quoting Enoch, too.

I suppose that would all depend if you were using it not to be taken too seriously but rather like Paul spoke to some of what their poets have said. (Acts 17) But you go right ahead. Maybe you can build your case of just why it backs up your Calvinism and use that as your foundation.

 

[mikesw]

I suppose that would all depend if you were using it not to be taken too seriously but rather like Paul spoke to some of what their poets have said. (Acts 17) But you go right ahead. Maybe you can build your case of just why it backs up your Calvinism and use that as your foundation.

Sorry. Maybe my thread landed in the wrong location. I'm not sure where Calvinism fits here. My use 1 Enoch was sort of like comparing the meaning of "gay" in the 1890s with its meaning in 2023. We have to recognize when a word is used with the wrong meaning and how that affects our understanding -- like of life the 1890s being interpreted with the modern meaning of "gay."

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Sorry. Maybe my thread landed in the wrong location. I'm not sure where Calvinism fits here. My use 1 Enoch was sort of like comparing the meaning of "gay" in the 1890s with its meaning in 2023. We have to recognize when a word is used with the wrong meaning and how that affects our understanding -- like of life the 1890s being interpreted with the modern meaning of "gay."

It doesn't fit. There are just a few folks on here with Calvinism Derangement Syndrome who have to attack Calvinism in every post.

 

[Rockson]

It doesn't fit. There are just a few folks on here with Calvinism Derangement Syndrome who have to attack Calvinism in every post.

Attacking or challenging that which needs to be challenged. I'll agree though I should have refrained from putting the word down on this particular thread.