The time of Jacob’s Trouble

[civic]

The phrase the time of Jacob’s trouble comes from Jeremiah 30:7, which says, “Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it” (KJV). It is our view that the time of Jacob’s trouble corresponds to the seven-year tribulation of the end times.

In the previous verses of Jeremiah 30, the Lord is speaking to Jeremiah the prophet about Judah and Israel (Jeremiah 30:3–4). In verse 3, the Lord promises that, one day in the future, He will bring both Judah and Israel back to the land He had promised their forefathers. But their return will involve many distresses: “How awful that day will be!” (Jeremiah 30:7). It will be “the time of Jacob’s trouble”—Jacob being a synecdoche for all the nation of Israel. Verse 5 describes Jacob’s trouble as a time of great fear and trembling. Verse 6 describes it in terms of the pains of childbirth, indicating a time of agony. But there is hope for the people of Israel, for the Lord promises He will save them. Even though this is “the time of Jacob’s distress” (NASB), and even though “in all history there has never been such a time of terror” (Jeremiah 30:7, NLT), God will deliver His people.

In Jeremiah 30:10–11 the Lord references the blessings that will come after the time of Jacob’s trouble: “‘I will surely save you out of a distant place, your descendants from the land of their exile. Jacob will again have peace and security, and no one will make him afraid. I am with you and will save you,’ declares the Lord.”

As part of the deliverance He provides from the time of Jacob’s trouble, the Lord says He will destroy the nations who held Judah and Israel in captivity, and He will never again allow Jacob to be completely destroyed. The Lord also describes this as a time of discipline for His people. He says of Jacob, “Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished.”

Jeremiah 30:7 says, “That day is great, so that none is like it.” The only time period that fits this description is the end-times tribulation. This time is unparalleled in history.

Like Jeremiah, Jesus described the tribulation as a unique time of suffering, speaking of “great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again” (Matthew 24:21). The Lord also used some of the same imagery as Jeremiah. In Matthew 24:6–8, He said the appearance of false christs, wars and rumors of wars, famines, and earthquakes are “the beginning of birth pains.”

Paul, too, described the tribulation using the simile of birth pains. First Thessalonians 5:3says, “While people are saying, ‘Peace and safety,’ destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.” This event follows the rapture and the removal of the church in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18.

These “birth pains” are described in detail in Revelation 6—12. One purpose of the tribulation—“the time of Jacob’s trouble”—is to bring Israel back to the Lord (see Jeremiah 30:22; Hosea 6:1–2; Zechariah 12:10).

The time of Jacob’s trouble demonstrates that God keeps His promises, judges sin, and saves those who trust in Christ. In the end times, God will pour His judgment on a wicked world, and this seven-year tribulation, from Israel’s point of view, is the time of Jacob’s trouble. In this time, God purges His chosen people of the wicked and unbelieving, but “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls” (Joel 2:32; cf. Romans 10:13). After that time of Jacob’s trouble is a time of peace, as the Lord Himself sets up His kingdom on earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1–6; cf. Isaiah 11).got ?

hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Jacob wasn't the first born to Isaac. Who was the first born? Jacob had no inheritance.

There is no context of Jacob's trouble without dealing with Jacob himself.

There is no such thing as a time of Judah's trouble.

 

[armylngst]

Jacob wasn't the first born to Isaac. Who was the first born? Jacob had no inheritance.

There is no context of Jacob's trouble without dealing with Jacob himself.

There is no such thing as a time of Judah's trouble.

God lied. Got it.

 

[brightfame52]

Paul, too, described the tribulation using the simile of birth pains. First Thessalonians 5:3says, “While people are saying, ‘Peace and safety,’ destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.” This event follows the rapture and the removal of the church in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18.

So do you mean to say that first Thessalonians 5:3 is 7 years after 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 ?

 

[civic]

So do you mean to say that first Thessalonians 5:3 is 7 years after 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 ?

no thats not what I said try reading it again.

 

[armylngst]

The phrase the time of Jacob’s trouble comes from Jeremiah 30:7, which says, “Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it” (KJV). It is our view that the time of Jacob’s trouble corresponds to the seven-year tribulation of the end times.

In the previous verses of Jeremiah 30, the Lord is speaking to Jeremiah the prophet about Judah and Israel (Jeremiah 30:3–4). In verse 3, the Lord promises that, one day in the future, He will bring both Judah and Israel back to the land He had promised their forefathers. But their return will involve many distresses: “How awful that day will be!” (Jeremiah 30:7). It will be “the time of Jacob’s trouble”—Jacob being a synecdoche for all the nation of Israel. Verse 5 describes Jacob’s trouble as a time of great fear and trembling. Verse 6 describes it in terms of the pains of childbirth, indicating a time of agony. But there is hope for the people of Israel, for the Lord promises He will save them. Even though this is “the time of Jacob’s distress” (NASB), and even though “in all history there has never been such a time of terror” (Jeremiah 30:7, NLT), God will deliver His people.

In Jeremiah 30:10–11 the Lord references the blessings that will come after the time of Jacob’s trouble: “‘I will surely save you out of a distant place, your descendants from the land of their exile. Jacob will again have peace and security, and no one will make him afraid. I am with you and will save you,’ declares the Lord.”

As part of the deliverance He provides from the time of Jacob’s trouble, the Lord says He will destroy the nations who held Judah and Israel in captivity, and He will never again allow Jacob to be completely destroyed. The Lord also describes this as a time of discipline for His people. He says of Jacob, “Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished.”

Jeremiah 30:7 says, “That day is great, so that none is like it.” The only time period that fits this description is the end-times tribulation. This time is unparalleled in history.

Like Jeremiah, Jesus described the tribulation as a unique time of suffering, speaking of “great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again” (Matthew 24:21). The Lord also used some of the same imagery as Jeremiah. In Matthew 24:6–8, He said the appearance of false christs, wars and rumors of wars, famines, and earthquakes are “the beginning of birth pains.”

Paul, too, described the tribulation using the simile of birth pains. First Thessalonians 5:3says, “While people are saying, ‘Peace and safety,’ destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.” This event follows the rapture and the removal of the church in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18.

These “birth pains” are described in detail in Revelation 6—12. One purpose of the tribulation—“the time of Jacob’s trouble”—is to bring Israel back to the Lord (see Jeremiah 30:22; Hosea 6:1–2; Zechariah 12:10).

The time of Jacob’s trouble demonstrates that God keeps His promises, judges sin, and saves those who trust in Christ. In the end times, God will pour His judgment on a wicked world, and this seven-year tribulation, from Israel’s point of view, is the time of Jacob’s trouble. In this time, God purges His chosen people of the wicked and unbelieving, but “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls” (Joel 2:32; cf. Romans 10:13). After that time of Jacob’s trouble is a time of peace, as the Lord Himself sets up His kingdom on earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1–6; cf. Isaiah 11).got ?

hope this helps !!!

Consider the possibility that it speaks to the holocaust. If I recall, the times of Jacob's trouble has a very narrow scope in definition in that it is compared to the history of the nation of Israel, not not the history of the world. It will not have any comparison to any even from when Israel became a nation until that time and into the future. The Great Tribulation seems to speak of the history of the world, so seems to speak of a global event. Just something given into consideration. I don't have an opinion myself.

 

[civic]

Consider the possibility that it speaks to the holocaust. If I recall, the times of Jacob's trouble has a very narrow scope in definition in that it is compared to the history of the nation of Israel, not not the history of the world. It will not have any comparison to any even from when Israel became a nation until that time and into the future. The Great Tribulation seems to speak of the history of the world, so seems to speak of a global event. Just something given into consideration. I don't have an opinion myself.

that gives me something to chew on, food for thought and some further research into the topic.

 

[armylngst]

that gives me something to chew on, food for thought and some further research into the topic.

There is a book I got recently because someone at work recommended it. "The Footsteps of the Messiah" by Dr. Arnold G Fruchtenbaum, a Messianic Jew. It is rather eye opening. It is all about how the Old Testament prophecies and the New Testament all go together with eschatology.

As I said above, I don't hold much in bringing up the holocaust, just not to leave anything out of consideration. The author of the book does say that 1948 is the regathering of the Jews to Israel for judgment, which is recorded in Old Testament prophecy.

 

[civic]

There is a book I got recently because someone at work recommended it. "The Footsteps of the Messiah" by Dr. Arnold G Fruchtenbaum, a Messianic Jew. It is rather eye opening. It is all about how the Old Testament prophecies and the New Testament all go together with eschatology.

As I said above, I don't hold much in bringing up the holocaust, just not to leave anything out of consideration. The author of the book does say that 1948 is the regathering of the Jews to Israel for judgment, which is recorded in Old Testament prophecy.

thanks for the recommendation brother.

 

[praise_yeshua]

God lied. Got it.

I didn't say God lied. So where is "Judah's trouble"?

I'll listen but please provide evidence not personal interpretations.

To expand how you should actually look at this....There is only a singular context to "Jacob's Trouble". It revolves around how Jacob wrestled with Christ an was paralyzed.

Gen 32:25

 

[armylngst]

I didn't say God lied. So where is "Judah's trouble"?

I'll listen but please provide evidence not personal interpretations.

To expand how you should actually look at this....There is only a singular context to "Jacob's Trouble". It revolves around how Jacob wrestled with Christ an was paralyzed.

Gen 32:25

Jacob's trouble equates to Judah/Israel.
"4 And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. 5 For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. 6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? 7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. 8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: 9 but they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

Now Genesis 32:25:
"25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob’s thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him."

That seems more like a personal interpretation. SEEMS... I understand where you are coming from, however, we are talking about the time of Jacob's trouble of which the day is so great that none is like it.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Jacob's trouble equates to Judah/Israel.
"4 And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. 5 For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. 6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? 7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. 8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: 9 but they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

Now Genesis 32:25:
"25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob’s thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him."

That seems more like a personal interpretation. SEEMS... I understand where you are coming from, however, we are talking about the time of Jacob's trouble of which the day is so great that none is like it.

To Jacob, there was no greater day for him. He became Israel that day. Read verse 28

You want to see a future day relative to someone besides Jacob. That is what you're looking for. That is a private interpretation.

Again. It isn't Judah's day of trouble.

 

[armylngst]

To Jacob, there was no greater day for him. He became Israel that day. Read verse 28

You want to see a future day relative to someone besides Jacob. That is what you're looking for. That is a private interpretation.

Again. It isn't Judah's day of trouble.

Even the rabbis don't believe this. They believe that Jacob refers to the Jews, and some teach that this was the holocaust in WW II. (Some rabbis). They do not see it as what you say. Jeremiah is PROPHECY. He isn't giving a history lesson. And God Himself says that these words are concerning Israel and concerning the Jews. He is very clear about that. For you to all of a sudden say that God, in the same stream of prophecy, is all of a sudden not speaking concerning Israel and concerning Judah is in and of itself concerning. It's a personal interpretation of a God given prophecy. Nowhere in this passage does it talk about Israel becoming a nation, or Jacob becoming Israel. Consider it says that they will serve David their king, but then says that God WILL [future tense] raise him up. That shows a messianic prophecy speaking of Jesus. This further denies your own personal interpretation.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Even the rabbis don't believe this. They believe that Jacob refers to the Jews, and some teach that this was the holocaust in WW II. (Some rabbis). They do not see it as what you say. Jeremiah is PROPHECY. He isn't giving a history lesson. And God Himself says that these words are concerning Israel and concerning the Jews. He is very clear about that. For you to all of a sudden say that God, in the same stream of prophecy, is all of a sudden not speaking concerning Israel and concerning Judah is in and of itself concerning. It's a personal interpretation of a God given prophecy. Nowhere in this passage does it talk about Israel becoming a nation, or Jacob becoming Israel. Consider it says that they will serve David their king, but then says that God WILL [future tense] raise him up. That shows a messianic prophecy speaking of Jesus. This further denies your own personal interpretation.

The Rabbis you reference are inconsistent.

You can't disconnect Jacob from Israel. That is exactly where you're doing. Jacob had an intimate experience with God and became Israel.

Jesus fulfilled all prophecy. The volume of the book was written of Him. Not some group of men that have polluted themselves with this world.

 

[armylngst]

The Rabbis you reference are inconsistent.

You can't disconnect Jacob from Israel. That is exactly where you're doing. Jacob had an intimate experience with God and became Israel.

Jesus fulfilled all prophecy. The volume of the book was written of Him. Not some group of men that have polluted themselves with this world.

I believe you feel like you are arguing with me, but you aren't. You are arguing with God who clearly started out the passage by saying it is concerning Israel and concerning Judah. Blunt, explicit, to the point, and out front. The Rabbis are inconsistent as to what they believe the future event is that fulfills this prophecy. You are the one and only person I have ever heard with this kind of take. One and only. I have never seen this before. It is clearly Messianic, and it clearly points forward to a time when Israel and Judah will serve God and king David, whom God WILL raise up. This is Jeremiah writing, who lived after king David died. It is messianic. There is more than once in scripture that when God speaks of Jacob, He is speaking of Israel/Judah, and not the man Jacob. Time of Jacob's trouble is not mentioned explicitly anywhere else in the Bible except this one passage. So to put it somewhere else is personal interpretation.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I believe you feel like you are arguing with me, but you aren't. You are arguing with God who clearly started out the passage by saying it is concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

Israel is Jacob. Why are rejecting Israel?

Blunt, explicit, to the point, and out front. The Rabbis are inconsistent as to what they believe the future event is that fulfills this prophecy. You are the one and only person I have ever heard with this kind of take.

Thank you! I don't care what you've been taught or heard from someone else. I care what the Scriptures say. I know what they say. I know how to think for myself. You keep following your mentors. Go for it.

One and only. I have never seen this before. It is clearly Messianic, and it clearly points forward to a time when Israel and Judah will serve God and king David, whom God WILL raise up. This is Jeremiah writing, who lived after king David died. It is messianic. There is more than once in scripture that when God speaks of Jacob, He is speaking of Israel/Judah, and not the man Jacob. Time of Jacob's trouble is not mentioned explicitly anywhere else in the Bible except this one passage. So to put it somewhere else is personal interpretation.

There is no Jew or future exaltation for anyone but the sole heir of Abraham. Jesus Christ.

I promote Jesus Christ. Not any supposed ethnic group that so mixed with the Gentiles of this world as to be Gentiles themselves.

I will exalt Christ alone. Jacob meet Jesus Christ as recorded in Genesis 32. He became Israel. His descendants of faith are blessed alone in Jesus Christ. The heir of all things.

So when you talk about the "time of Jacob's trouble".... don't start with this nonsense that doesn't exalt Christ.

Have you had a similar experience with Jesus Christ Himself that left you so utterly changed that you will not speak of another any longer?

Will you lips continually praise His name?

Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Heb 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

 

[armylngst]

Israel is Jacob. Why are rejecting Israel?

You are arguing with God who clearly started out the passage by saying it is concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

Please learn reading comprehension. The very first verse of the passage says that it is concerning Israel and concerning Judah. Jacob had 12 sons. That is Israel - 10 tribes, and Judah - 2 tribes. The nothern tribes and the southern tribes. Jacob is used in this passage for both of them. The times of Jacob's trouble speaks of a difficult time coming to, back to what God said with "concerning Israel and concerning Judah", Israel and Judah. Some Rabbis have come to believe that this speaks to the holocaust. Others believe it is other times still future from Jacob, and having nothing to do with the passage in Genesis.

Thank you! I don't care what you've been taught or heard from someone else. I care what the Scriptures say. I know what they say. I know how to think for myself. You keep following your mentors. Go for it.

If you cared what the scriptures say, you wouldn't butcher it like you do. The passage makes it clear that it speaks of a future time for Jacob's children, speaking to Israel and Judah. And again, what mentors. If I look for anything closest to a mentor being a pastor, he was Jewish.

There is no Jew or future exaltation for anyone but the sole heir of Abraham. Jesus Christ.

What does that have to do with any of this?

I promote Jesus Christ. Not any supposed ethnic group that so mixed with the Gentiles of this world as to be Gentiles themselves.

There are Jews, which we can see with how Jesus interacted with all kinds of people, except for the full blooded Gentile Canaanite woman. Only at that time, only then, did He say He has only come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Those who are of/those who have come out of, the house of Israel.

I will exalt Christ alone. Jacob meet Jesus Christ as recorded in Genesis 32. He became Israel. His descendants of faith are blessed alone in Jesus Christ. The heir of all things.

That passage on the "time of Jacob's trouble" has nothing to do with that. What it does do, is eschatologically speak to the salvation of Israel, and Judah, and a future time where they will worship both God, and David's heir, the Messiah, Jesus Christ, whom God will raise up. (Future tense to Jeremiah's time.) Messianic and eschatological at the same time.

So when you talk about the "time of Jacob's trouble".... don't start with this nonsense that doesn't exalt Christ.

That wasn't me. It was you who said that the passage in Jeremiah speaking to Christ, exalting Christ in the salvation of Israel, has nothing to do with that. That's on you.

Have you had a similar experience with Jesus Christ Himself that left you so utterly changed that you will not speak of another any longer?

Like when He saved me from myself?

Will you lips continually praise His name?

Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Heb 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

There is no one else to praise, but the Father, His Son, and His Holy Spirit, the Godhead three in one. And there will come that day when the Son will return the kingdom to the Father, that He might be all in all. (That's in Corinthians, and it is after He defeats the final enemy, death.) That just happens to come at the end of the millennial kingdom in Revelation.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You are arguing with God who clearly started out the passage by saying it is concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

I'm not talking to God. I'm talking to you. Stop that nonsense. I know how to read. I know how to study.

Please learn reading comprehension. The very first verse of the passage says that it is concerning Israel and concerning Judah. Jacob had 12 sons. That is Israel - 10 tribes, and Judah - 2 tribes. The nothern tribes and the southern tribes. Jacob is used in this passage for both of them. The times of Jacob's trouble speaks of a difficult time coming to, back to what God said with "concerning Israel and concerning Judah", Israel and Judah. Some Rabbis have come to believe that this speaks to the holocaust. Others believe it is other times still future from Jacob, and having nothing to do with the passage in Genesis.

Sure it does. Jacob was referenced as Israel. Israel is made up the descendants of Israel. (Jacob). Jacob/Israel is a man of faith. There is no Eternal ancestry without faith.

If you cared what the scriptures say, you wouldn't butcher it like you do. The passage makes it clear that it speaks of a future time for Jacob's children, speaking to Israel and Judah. And again, what mentors. If I look for anything closest to a mentor being a pastor, he was Jewish.

Paul was a Hebrew of Hebrews. A man with human ancestry that never included a Gentile and he said very clearly....

Php 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

I know you're obviously very confident in your flesh. Don't be. Stop preaching after the flesh.

What does that have to do with any of this?

It has much to do about having a proper perspective. You want to see the things you're teaching here.

There are Jews, which we can see with how Jesus interacted with all kinds of people, except for the full blooded Gentile Canaanite woman. Only at that time, only then, did He say He has only come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Those who are of/those who have come out of, the house of Israel.

I know you have this perspective. That is what this thread is ultimately about. The improper perspective given to those who claim ancestry in Abraham without faith in Jesus Christ.

That is a lie. The Spirit of adoption is necessary in Eternal things. You are of the seed/ancestry of Adam. Even Abraham was of the ancestry after the flesh of Adam. To be Eternal, you must be adopted through the work of the Incarnation of Jesus Christ that broke down that wall of separation that existed in humanity. That wall is gone. Destroyed. It isn't there anymore. Stop pretend it is STILL THERE.

That passage on the "time of Jacob's trouble" has nothing to do with that. What it does do, is eschatologically speak to the salvation of Israel, and Judah, and a future time where they will worship both God, and David's heir, the Messiah, Jesus Christ, whom God will raise up. (Future tense to Jeremiah's time.) Messianic and eschatological at the same time.

The salvation of Israel is the salvation of US ALL. ALL the nations of the earth are blessed with FAITHFUL Abraham. Stop limiting God's purpose to only your few.

There is no one else to praise, but the Father, His Son, and His Holy Spirit, the Godhead three in one. And there will come that day when the Son will return the kingdom to the Father, that He might be all in all. (That's in Corinthians, and it is after He defeats the final enemy, death.) That just happens to come at the end of the millennial kingdom in Revelation.

So the Father lost a kingdom? Expound upon this.... Establish this.....

I know what you believe. I once held the same view. I'm ashamed of it. It doesn't properly exalt Christ.

 

[armylngst]

I'm not talking to God. I'm talking to you. Stop that nonsense. I know how to read. I know how to study.

You are talking to God, and not me. I am not God. You will not flatter me.

Sure it does. Jacob was referenced as Israel. Israel is made up the descendants of Israel. (Jacob). Jacob/Israel is a man of faith. There is no Eternal ancestry without faith.

You speak of the given split between those who say they are physical descendants of Abraham, of whom Jesus was like, so what, God can raise up children of Abraham from stones, and those who are his descendants by faith, which are both Jew and Gentile. There is a separation outside of the church, because, Israel is the bride of God, and the church is the bride of Christ. (I take it you have forgotten all the prophecies that speak of Israel as God's bride...)

Paul was a Hebrew of Hebrews. A man with human ancestry that never included a Gentile and he said very clearly....

Php 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

I know you're obviously very confident in your flesh. Don't be. Stop preaching after the flesh.

I have no confidence in the flesh, save it burns easy...

It has much to do about having a proper perspective. You want to see the things you're teaching here.

I know you have this perspective. That is what this thread is ultimately about. The improper perspective given to those who claim ancestry in Abraham without faith in Jesus Christ.

There is a piece you are missing. The Jews are still God's chosen people, His bride. Yes, they enter the church, however, they still have their place in God as His chosen people by covenant. He will still be their salvation, and that is to say that salvation will be in Christ, and will be by faith, but like Paul, it will be face to face. (As one can see in Zechariah.)

That is a lie. The Spirit of adoption is necessary in Eternal things. You are of the seed/ancestry of Adam. Even Abraham was of the ancestry after the flesh of Adam. To be Eternal, you must be adopted through the work of the Incarnation of Jesus Christ that broke down that wall of separation that existed in humanity. That wall is gone. Destroyed. It isn't there anymore. Stop pretend it is STILL THERE.

There isn't a wall, there is a distinction by covenant. By the Father choosing a people upon which to place His name. Those who are of the flesh have no place there, but those who are descendants (physical) of Abraham, and ALSO by faith as by Isaac, are those who will inherit the kingdom promised to Israel to be ruled by their Messiah. (Messiah meaning king, not Savior. He is ALSO the Savior, but Messiah means king.)

The salvation of Israel is the salvation of US ALL. ALL the nations of the earth are blessed with FAITHFUL Abraham. Stop limiting God's purpose to only your few.

His purpose is not limited. It is first to the Jew, and then to the Gentile, as Paul said that salvation is first to the Jew, then the Gentile. There are two peoples who will be one. On Earth, they are one in the church, however, that is only the elect of Israel who are saved, and the elect of Gentiles who are saved. It does not speak to the elect that are still within the secular nation of Israel who have not been saved yet. They have a special time and place for them which is in Zechariah, which takes place right before the millennial kingdom in Revelation. As I recommended to Civic, you could consider the book "The Footsteps of the Messiah" which presents eschatology melding both the Old Testament eschatology and the New Testament eschatology together for a fuller picture. It is well researched.

So the Father lost a kingdom? Expound upon this.... Establish this.....

Wow. Um, I even mentioned where it is found I believe. (Corinthians). A google search using that would have given you the answer, where your lack of knowledge does not.

I Corinthians 15
"24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Nice, exactly as I said.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

You may have difficulty understanding this, but it shows that the title/position of Father is higher then that of Son, and thus the Father is not subjected to the rule of the Son, who put everything under subjection to the Son.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

When all is done, the Son will Himself be subject to the Father that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. That is, the kingdom is basically returned (so I paraphrased a little) to the Father seen here, and seen in I Corinthians 15:24.

I know what you believe. I once held the same view. I'm ashamed of it. It doesn't properly exalt Christ.

You need to get new mentors, and preferably ones who know what they are talking about. (I too can say that to you.) My view speaks to the exaltation of Christ in His final salvation of Israel. How did Paul speak of the final salvation of Israel, and not of Gentiles/the church? Like life from the dead. A miracle beyond possibility. Yet it will happen, and it will be glorious. Their Messiah will come down and rescue them right before their destruction, and God will save them.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You are talking to God, and not me. I am not God. You will not flatter me.

You're flattering yourself. I never offered to flatter you.

You speak of the given split between those who say they are physical descendants of Abraham, of whom Jesus was like, so what, God can raise up children of Abraham from stones, and those who are his descendants by faith, which are both Jew and Gentile. There is a separation outside of the church, because, Israel is the bride of God, and the church is the bride of Christ. (I take it you have forgotten all the prophecies that speak of Israel as God's bride...)

The one God divorced? Have you forgotten the divorce? His bride played the harlot.

I have no confidence in the flesh, save it burns easy...

Maybe not easy but it does burn.

There is a piece you are missing. The Jews are still God's chosen people, His bride. Yes, they enter the church, however, they still have their place in God as His chosen people by covenant. He will still be their salvation, and that is to say that salvation will be in Christ, and will be by faith, but like Paul, it will be face to face. (As one can see in Zechariah.)

There is no Israel without faith. Doesn't exist. There was Jacob and there was Israel. Jacob changed. Faith changes people.

There isn't a wall, there is a distinction by covenant. By the Father choosing a people upon which to place His name. Those who are of the flesh have no place there, but those who are descendants (physical) of Abraham, and ALSO by faith as by Isaac, are those who will inherit the kingdom promised to Israel to be ruled by their Messiah. (Messiah meaning king, not Savior. He is ALSO the Savior, but Messiah means king.)

"King of kings" is a distinction brought about through the Persian Empire. It is a Gentile distinction. Jehovah never desired or even sought to be a king among Israel.

So when you speak of "King of Kings" you're alluding beyond Judah. Pay attention to what you're saying. I'm not your enemy but you're casting abroad. You're promoting promises without faith. I can't allow that. You're preaching Calvinism among Jews. Jews were the first Calvinists.

His purpose is not limited. It is first to the Jew, and then to the Gentile, as Paul said that salvation is first to the Jew, then the Gentile. There are two peoples who will be one. On Earth, they are one in the church, however, that is only the elect of Israel who are saved, and the elect of Gentiles who are saved. It does not speak to the elect that are still within the secular nation of Israel who have not been saved yet. They have a special time and place for them which is in Zechariah, which takes place right before the millennial kingdom in Revelation. As I recommended to Civic, you could consider the book "The Footsteps of the Messiah" which presents eschatology melding both the Old Testament eschatology and the New Testament eschatology together for a fuller picture. It is well researched.

I don't need such a book. I know the subject better than you do. If you want to arrange a debate with the author of the book, I will gladly participate.

Wow. Um, I even mentioned where it is found I believe. (Corinthians). A google search using that would have given you the answer, where your lack of knowledge does not.

I Corinthians 15
"24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

YOU added the word "RETURN". You said that. Pay attention to what you say. It is why I asked you what I asked you. I know the verse you reference above. I probably knew it before you ever knew it. That verse doesn't say anything about "return" the kingdom.

So again. Tell me how the Father lost a kingdom.

You may have difficulty understanding this, but it shows that the title/position of Father is higher then that of Son, and thus the Father is not subjected to the rule of the Son, who put everything under subjection to the Son.

There is no rank among the Holy Trinity relative to "title". Such is preposterous. Coequal, CoEternal.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Subjection isn't about "rank". You think like a man seeking to rule another.

When all is done, the Son will Himself be subject to the Father that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. That is, the kingdom is basically returned (so I paraphrased a little) to the Father seen here, and seen in I Corinthians 15:24.

1Co 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

The work of the Son isn't complete because of US. Not national Israel, but because of the entire world. The last enemy still claims our "brothers" in Adam all around us. It is OUR responsibility as ambassadors for Christ to stop this world from claiming our brothers for themselves.

You need to get new mentors, and preferably ones who know what they are talking about. (I too can say that to you.) My view speaks to the exaltation of Christ in His final salvation of Israel. How did Paul speak of the final salvation of Israel, and not of Gentiles/the church? Like life from the dead. A miracle beyond possibility. Yet it will happen, and it will be glorious. Their Messiah will come down and rescue them right before their destruction, and God will save them.

God saves the willing. You're preaching an irrevocable promise of purposed redemption for an exclusively ethnicity just like Calvinism teachings for the "elect".

Such is evil and doesn't exalt Christ at all.