The Potter and the Clay

[civic]

Jeremiah 18 RSV- the reformed/calvinist translation

The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will let you hear my words.” 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was working at his wheel. 4 And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter’s hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.

1- who spoiled the clay ?

It was the clay,not the potter. The clay was spoiled in the hands of the potter and the potter reworked it into another vessel. This is the context which Paul uses in Romans 9.

Romans 9- Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hose′a,

“Those who were not my people
I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved
I will call ‘my beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

Romans 9 has the elect Jews who are the vessels of destruction and the gentiles as the ones of mercy who were not Gods elect. Through their own rebellion God has called a people who were not His people, the children of God. The potter/clay refutes Calvinism, not supports it. The harden self righteous Jews were rejected by God with a seared conscience. Their rebellion caused a good purpose - the grafting in of the Gentiles.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

The condition of the clay and the potter. God declares if you repent then I will not bring upon you these disasters/wrath/judgements.

Jeremiah 18
Then the word of the Lord came to me. 6 He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.


In Romans 9 its the hardened Jew/reprobate is whom Paul prays for in their temporary hardening until all the gentiles are grafted into the branch. The potter/clay is God using the hardened Jews- His elect,chosen people ( destruction ) to bring in non elect vessels of glory ( gentiles) their salvation. The potter/clay is another analogy that contradicts calvinism, not support it. Once the glasses/lens are removed one can see the passages in their greater biblical context and harmonize them.

There are no chapters/verses in the original Greek- so here is the context below which reveals the flaws in Calvinism's soteriology.

Romans 9:30–32 - What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,

Romans 10:18–21- But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” 19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” 20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” 21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

Romans 11:19–23-Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

hope this helps !!!

 

[TomL]

The condition of the clay and the potter. God declares if you repent then I will not bring upon you these disasters/wrath/judgements.

Jeremiah 18
Then the word of the Lord came to me. 6 He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.


In Romans 9 its the hardened Jew/reprobate is whom Paul prays for in their temporary hardening until all the gentiles are grafted into the branch. The potter/clay is God using the hardened Jews- His elect,chosen people ( destruction ) to bring in non elect vessels of glory ( gentiles) their salvation. The potter/clay is another analogy that contradicts calvinism, not support it. Once the glasses/lens are removed one can see the passages in their greater biblical context and harmonize them.

There are no chapters/verses in the original Greek- so here is the context below which reveals the flaws in Calvinism's soteriology.

Romans 9:30–32 - What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,

Romans 10:18–21- But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” 19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” 20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” 21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

Romans 11:19–23-Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

hope this helps !!!

Continue to verse 12

Jeremiah 18:12 (NASB 2020) — 12 But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will persist in the stubbornness of his evil heart.’

It's not the Potter making them stubborn but their own self will

 

[civic]

Continue to verse 12

Jeremiah 18:12 (NASB 2020) — 12 But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will persist in the stubbornness of his evil heart.’

It's not the Potter making them stubborn but their own self will

Great point the potter/ clay in scripture actually supports the non Calvinists position

 

[TomL]

Great point the potter/ clay in scripture actually supports the non Calvinists position

Yes According to Calvinism God spoils the clay. The clay is inactive in this, When read the narrative however we see

Jeremiah 18:7–12 (KJV 1900) — 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. 11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

That whether a nation receives good or evil is dependent upon its response to God.

We know from scripture

Romans 10:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Israel contrary to God's desire was stubborn and gain saying despite God's desire to bless them

It seems to me one can believe the sincerity of God or one can believe Calvinism. You cannot however believe both.

I see it as no contest.

 

[Rockson]

Yes According to Calvinism God spoils the clay. The clay is inactive in this, When read the narrative however we see

Jeremiah 18:7–12 (KJV 1900) — 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

So let's unpack this. It speaks of God's intent. His intent is to destroy. Something changes his intent. What is it? It's nothing from himself. It's the actions of the other or the nation he was going to destroy. The clay therefore IS A LIVING THING! It therefore has the capacity to think and reason and make choices. This is not a theory but rather a fact. There can be nothing more self evident then this and men will be without excuse for saying otherwise.

 

[TomL]

So let's unpack this. It speaks of God's intent. His intent is to destroy. Something changes his intent. What is it? It's nothing from himself. It's the actions of the other or the nation he was going to destroy. The clay therefore IS A LIVING THING! It therefore has the capacity to think and reason and make choices. This is not a theory but rather a fact. There can be nothing more self evident then this and men will be without excuse for saying otherwise.

Yes and Calvinism is shown to be contrary to scripture

 

[civic]

Genesis 32:28
The man said, “From now on, your name will no longer be Jacob. You will be called Israel,

Jacob ( Isreal ) I loved, Esau ( the nations) I hated.

Roman’s 9-11 is about hardened Isreal that God loved . Isreal , the Jews are the ones Paul is rebuking in those chapters whom God has hardened.

 

[Frank Russell]

Jeremiah 18 RSV- the reformed/calvinist translation

The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will let you hear my words.” 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was working at his wheel. 4 And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter’s hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.

1- who spoiled the clay ?

It was the clay,not the potter. The clay was spoiled in the hands of the potter and the potter reworked it into another vessel. This is the context which Paul uses in Romans 9.

Romans 9- Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hose′a,

“Those who were not my people
I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved
I will call ‘my beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

Romans 9 has the elect Jews who are the vessels of destruction and the gentiles as the ones of mercy who were not Gods elect. Through their own rebellion God has called a people who were not His people, the children of God. The potter/clay refutes Calvinism, not supports it. The harden self righteous Jews were rejected by God with a seared conscience. Their rebellion caused a good purpose - the grafting in of the Gentiles.

hope this helps !!!

It does help, this so applies to people who don't fit in church because God suddenly transforms them ... and how church people cannot accept it.

 

[TomL]

Genesis 32:28
The man said, “From now on, your name will no longer be Jacob. You will be called Israel,

Jacob ( Isreal ) I loved, Esau ( the nations) I hated.

Roman’s 9-11 is about hardened Isreal that God loved . Isreal , the Jews are the ones Paul is rebuking in those chapters whom God has hardened.

Fulfilled after both were dead


Malachi 1:1–4 (KJV 1900) — 1 THE burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. 2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: Yet I loved Jacob, 3 And I hated Esau, And laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, But we will return and build the desolate places; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; And they shall call them, The border of wickedness, And, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.